Touhou Project, but if it came out 20 years later...

[CountVonNumenor]

Touhou already has a long history (over 25 years of counting the PC-98 games). And in all of these years, especially as it had the advantage of catching the years in which the Internet as we know it came to be, enjoyed great popularity especially in the early 2010s. However, I was recently thinking of something... How do you guys think Touhou would have been received if it appeared 20 years later? (for this scenario, we will be assuming 20 years from the release of EoSD, so let's say in 2022 instead of 2002)

I do not know for sure how it would perform if it came out these days, given the number of other franchises that seem to be getting the spotlight. However, if the series would catch even a small, cult audience, there would be chance in time to turn into at least an underground popular series.

As a bonus question: do you think there would be significant changes in the way ZUN would have done the programming, art, music and all that if the games appeared later than they actually did? Especially if ZUN might be getting any influence from the art style of other already popular games that would rival his little, newly released project. And what about his policy towards the fandom and fan-made content? Would it still be just as laxed, or there could appear differences? And would the series still remain an underground project of a creator that would prefer his series not to become mainstream/turn into a big franchise? Probably one advantage a 2022 instead of 2002 release of the Windows generation games would get the advantage of better developed technology, internet, social media and game-sharing platforms if there is one positive we could think of. Of course, most of these are impossible to predict, but they can be a fun thought exercise.

[Isaac]

I honestly think touhou would be just as popular if EoSD released in 2022. The bullet hell gameplay might not be as relevant now compared to back then, but the music and character designs are still memorable. There's plenty of newcomers who are going back to play those older games as well, including the PC-98 ones. I'm not sure how ZUN would change the artstyle or gameplay based on popular stuff now, but I think he would still be flexible on his rules with fan made content. A lot of indie games try to build up their communities on social media, so I could see him taking influence from that again at least.

[nitorii]

I personally believe that due to the lack of shoot em ups / bullets hells there are nowadays, the game could get some traction since it's uncommon to see. It would also be easy for youtubers to make videos of them sucking at the game for 2 hours and further spreading the game until it becomes "mainstream", so to speak. As to if there would be any changes as to how ZUN would've made the games themselves (due to new technology and etc.) I honestly believe he would stick to his style regardless. As seen before, he does what he does because he feels its best from his point of view, meaning he wouldn't care to make something that would be more "attractive", for lack of words, to a younger or just general gaming audience. I do believe he would take some degree of inspiration from other games relevant to music and such, but never go overboard with it that it loses his special charm for the songs he made that we listen to today. I believe he would still let fan games or fan content in general take their way because, simply put, it makes the touhou community bigger, which is always nice, both from a revenue standpoint and from a growth standpoint. Killing fan content leads to general loss of interest from people who are already fans of X topic (in this case, touhou) and leads to less growth, because of the bad reputation you get from it (biggest example of this is Nintendo, which legit killed InfernoPlus's Mario Royale project because they felt like it, it wasn't even generating revenue). As for if it would be preferable to stay underground or go mainstream, I'd say mainstream is the way to go, unfortunately.

damn I had forgotten what it feels like to write something decent in a while

[Reitisen]

Hmm IDK. Is this something like if EOSD releasing in 2022, or is it something like Touhou being modernized to it being the recent Touhou games? I'm assuming this is if EOSD and the later games gotten something like a modernized look and genre for the modern era and if ZUN was recently graduated from college and making the mainline games based around a somewhat modern/traditional look.

Going into alternative routes.

If we take in consideration of all the factors of today and how Touhou was originally based around B-hell gameplay. Touhou might be something different from Danmaku if it were created today. ZUN likes to base his games for arcade gameplay, so maybe something dealing with fighting games and or maybe the crazy rhythm games that you see people playing in the arcades for.  If that is not the case and he sticks for B-Hell, the topic choices would be hella different from the EOSD, PCB, IN, POFV, MOF. Especially since that he seems to take a preference for some modernizing and or current issues for Touhou games.

Who knows if it could've gone the Seihou route and or a mix of future and traditional given how he seems to partly partake in that during the PC-98 era. This is assuming that ZUN grew up and followed trends that would've interested him in around the 2000-20XX.

Popularity is hard to assume based around the current generations trends. So who knows if Touhou would blow up in Japan and later become something that seeds later in the world, or just become a Japan only topic. That whole entirely depends on if Touhou can get a blast of popularity and sustain it, which... I'm feeling might not blow up today. This is entirely due to how much of a repertoire the fanbase has generated for the Touhou franchise which has helped spread popularity for the general Japanese population. A lot of franchises today rely on either quality with help from a company, Indie studios making unique experiences that somehow get boosted, and or easy to catch attention seekers, the later being more prevalent.

One thing is certain though, modernizing the entire franchise would probably take on a whole different look and plot.

[Gou the frog]

So, if Touhou (I assume starting from EosD) was released in 2022, it would be quite niche and would go under the radar for people only to find it after months or so. Having said that, there's a slight chance Touhou might go mainstream after enough people play it. Then, the popularity fades away for a while leaving a loyal, (cult like) fanbase. Well, ZUN might experiment with the style of the games like Reitisen has stated. I don't think his composing style won't change maybe different instruments depending on the era? (I hope so) For his artstyle, I don't know. He might improve and retain the charm. Eh, I have a feeling Touhou would turn into a rpg if it were to release in today state. But whatever, I wouldn't mind seeing futuristic Touhou. Overall, to answer your question, I don't think Touhou would blow up this much if it were to release in present day. Although, I'm certain that with the way ZUN handles his games, there would be somewhat small to mid-loyal fanbase for Touhou Project full stop

 

 

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Ay, feels nice to be back here. 

 

[buskerdog]

Why does this hypothetical situation interest me way more than it should? Well, for clarity let me just point out that I'm mainly focusing on the "bonus question" part here.

OK, lemme start by laying some ground assumptions:

A) Since we are rewinding the clock on Touhou's origin by 20 years, I will also assume ZUN to be 20 years younger and experience a more modern upbringing. However, I will assume his experiences and early course of life to be generally the same.

B) I will also assume "the hypothetic Touhou released in 2022" to not be ZUN's first game. After all, he had the 5 PC-98 titles as practices for what would eventually become EoSD, which seems to be the game we are comparing to here. However, although I will say ZUN has made games before this, I will also say that were not distributed at Comiket, mostly because the scenario for this thread is what if touhou "started" 20 years after the actual release of EoSD. These hypothetical warm-up projects may have, at most, been distributed by ZUN at his college between his friends; otherwise assume that these projects are simply unfinished/unreleased.

C) Finally, something I think most people here have overlooked, but I will also make the very important assumption that ZUN remains a solo dev. This variable could actually change everything, and I think that if Touhou did come out 20 years later, there actually is a pretty significant chance that ZUN might work with other people, since a lot more people practice gamedev nowadays. However, it is true that ZUN has always liked doing things "his own way", and I also think that the general idea behind the question is that ZUN is still working by himself, so I will assume that ZUN remains a solo dev.

Alright, with that out of the way, lets go over how I think Touhou would look in this scenario. To keep this brief I'll simply split into the things I think would be the same and things I think would be different.

Firstly, these things stay the same:

• Touhou would definitely still be a game about moe-ified folk legends that incorporate both Eastern and Western elements. I don't think ZUN's fascination for folk stories would be changed at all by the time period of Touhou's creation; after all, the original stories are timeless and still very much present in Japanese society, and ZUN has also said that he used the first 5 games to figure out what exactly he wanted to do with Touhou Project; with the hypothetic practice games that ZUN has made in this scenario, I still think he would end up in the same place regarding what he wants Touhou to be. There's also the fact that ZUN decided to make his main character a shrine maiden because "there weren't many games like that at the time". You still don't see many games about shrine maidens.
• Touhou would still very much be a "doujin" game. Although he would hopefully adopt online distribution much quicker, I still expect that ZUN's preferred distribution method would be Comiket, and I still 100% believe that ZUN would be as open to fan use of his IP as he is now.

These are the things I could see changing:

• Touhou's genre could very likely take on a different form. ZUN makes bullet hells because he used to play a lot of them, and it's something he really likes, but 20 years later? The exposure to bullet hells would surely be much less, so he might decide to make a different genre of game instead. However, Touhou being a bullet hell is still possible; if he really likes the genre, then he only needs to find one or two games like that to decide that's what he wants to make. In fact, the unusualness of the genre can be a factor to encourage making a game like that. But even if it was still a bullet hell, it would surely look very different; likely pulling influence from a lot of other genres.
• On a similar note, the technology and methods ZUN would have learned to use for development would also look significantly different, and this would probably have a knock on effect on the actual design of the game; most likely for the better when you also take into account he would have been inspired by less primitive games.
• When it comes to portraits, ZUN art will still be ZUN art, but as for the rest of the game's graphics, the difference in technology may have an impact on them. Who knows what kind of wizardry he might try with shaders and particles?
• This might also be a controversial one, but I'm gonna say it: face it, ZUN's music would just not sound the same. The tools ZUN uses for his instruments are old. He would have completely different technology for making his music which means the sounds would just not be the same at all, and exposure to different inspirations would also probably have an effect on his composition style, although I dare still it would still retain a little bit of that signature ZUN-ness about it, if you know what I mean.
• Lastly, to address the question of popularity, I find it very unlikely that ZUN's project he sells at Comiket would become a runaway success; there's just too much competition now, and the bar has been raised dramatically. The several year backbone of Touhou fan content is not present in this scenario. However, I think he would make something good enough to garner a few fans, especially seeing as one of his motivations for entering Comiket was that he thought he could make something "way more fun that what was here", so if he keeps at that competitive spirit, I think slowly over multiple Comiket releases he might start building a fandom out for himself. This does depend on how well he can give his fans more content though; if his games have a higher complexity is this scenario, that's also gonna make them take longer to develop. The question is how much does his original release give his players to do, and can he strike a balance between finish projects in a sound amount of time and making each game substantial enough?