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CountVonNumenor last won the day on January 29

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  1. Alright, so I finished watching the second arc. All I want to say is that I have not felt so happy in a very long time. I might be extremely biased, since it was the Tanamachi Kaoru arc, but I really had a great time with it. Last time, I was wondering if the timeline just resets at the beginning of each arc - YES, it does. Interesting though, this time we received a little more of the flashback, as a continuation of the first arc's opening flashback. Maybe in time we are going to build a greater image of what happened during the fateful Christmas Even from 2 years prior? Anyway, back tot he arc itself. If last time, the story kind was that of "romancing the popular high school girl", this time it was more of a "two old friends end up developing feelings for each other, even if they initially deny it". And from there, all the build-up through 4 episodes leading to a cute resolution. I would like to talk more about the episodes, but I would prefer not to spoil the synopsis for an anime from 13 years ago. However, some highlights: Kaoru really knows how to punch, and will jump in an instant to defend her friends, even if it means potentially picking a fight overall, she is quite a tomboy in her general attitude despite being seemingly strong, Kaoru does have her weak spots - it will become more clear in the second half of her arc the Keiko subplot - hinted from the intro, we got some of it through the arc; I feel though there might be more to it in the future though; it's cute though how Junichi and Kaoru would end up helping her; a little bit of a payback later, organized by both Keiko and Masayoshi our protagonist is also quite acrobatic, given she can climb a tree, retrieve something stuck there, then come back to the ground gracefully, just like a cat this arc overall has had, surprisingly, more fanservice then the previous - not that I am complaining; part of it comes from the imagination of Junichi only now, 8 episodes in, did I realize that each character has their own music theme, sang by the voice actress of the character; in the case of Kaoru, her music theme in first season is Kitto Ashita wa... ("Surely Tomorrow Will...") - all I can say is that I love that song, and without a joke, Rina Sato really has talent for singing: (funny how on Spotify, for the song author, they have decided to first credit the character, then the voice actor for it) I've felt a little weird as a side effect. I have felt so much happier than I usually am, and for a few days really developed a crave for sweets. Could there be any connection between the general happiness and crave for sweets? An the fact I have been listening to the song for the past few days since I found it. Yes, I am starting to believe that Amagami is the new big thing happening to me after Touhou. Not that I am going to drop any of them, alternating the two things (as well as Warhammer and BattleTech) can prevent a burnout. And all of this sated because of a single character, found long ago through a random image on Pinterest... And now, after watching this arc, the following meme feels even more justified: And for a bonus, a list of characters voiced by Rina Sato (Satou? It's a weird "o" with accent - this thing ō) in 20 years of activity until now (not all, since the list might be much longer): Next time, I will return with a spoiler-free review of the Nakata Sae arc.
  2. I mean Alphes is already known to have drawn Touhou characters with larger chest than usually depicted in official media. Anyone remembers his version of Yuugi? And speaking of Yuugi, that also appeared for most of her depiction ever since. Be it in the background sprite from Hopeless Masquerade... ... or even if you want to consider her portrait from Who's Who of Humans & Youkai to count in that category: What exactly do you mean in the case of "Daiyousei" and "Koakuma"? If you mean people not depicting them as they appeared in the little spites from EoSD, there are still, even if rare, artists who drew them as in those sprites: Thing is "Koakuma" did appear in canon art the way most people depict her, in that tuxedo thing. Her EoSD robes have been a one-time thing, then official art switched to what she is better known for: From Strange Creators of Outer World This is an interesting alternate outfit from Cheating Detective Satori (yes, I prefer this name for the series instead of the current "Foul Detective") Also Koakuma in the (albeit non-canon) Inaba of the Moon and Inaba of the Earth
  3. Oh, do not worry. Last week was the flu week for me, accompanied by strong coughing. This week however was the one that brought the exams, and that's how I'll for the following couple weeks as well. Holy shit, I never noticed that. Nice detail! I think I may have only once noticed it in another official work, and that was in Forbidden Scrollery in regards to Reisen:
  4. I am sorry for my long absence. It is time to give some answers to a few points, as they cleared some things I may have misinterpreted in the past: Thank you. This is interesting to know. Also, I am honestly feeling very confused about the meaning and use of the word "moe". Besides referring to something that is cute, how much does the explanation of the word expands? Even if to be fair, I think there was an explanation in the "why do we like waifus" video in regards to the whole "moe" thing, as well as how it spread to become so common, if not the most common view of anime. This part reminds me quite a lot about some criticism I have heard in the past regarding ZUN writing. It was about the fact that stories feel stagnant, and that instead of a land and its inhabitants evolving and changing through time, it ends up becoming more of a "trivia-churning machine", as if being a collection of "oh, by the way...". I am not sure how much it applied to all written works, but I did feel it a little bit while reading Forbidden Scollery with how much mythology and Japanese culture references ZUN tried to shove in at every corner. That does not detract though from the fact I really enjoyed reading that series. Thank you for the honesty. Next time when I have multiple text chunks like that, I was thinking of something. Would it work if I put the original paragraph in spoiler, and write a TL;DR version below? That way, one could get the main idea out of the text, and can get to the original as well if they actually intend to read the whole text. Honestly, I think I may have held this as a big misconception when I am thinking of modern Japan and the spread of media/exposure. The first image that comes to my mind is indeed the of Akihabara from Tokyo, but somehow my brain ended up turning it into a generalization instead of an exception/rare case. Oh, I think that actually makes for a very good, and easy to understand analogy. Again, the problem comes from my (sometimes faulty) thinking, when I end up generalizing things and applying them to an entire group when it may be more likely the case for just a number of individuals within that group.
  5. Oh, it's been a while since I have last been here. Honestly, I forgot I wrote the thread, and I was very close to "starting" it this afternoon. However, good to see it is already here. I think we did. We just need a reminder on the conclusion from that discussion. In that case, probably one of the most interesting ZUN comments about age is related to one of his "Miscellaneous drawings" from before EoSD. He said he wanted to draw an adult in one of these images, but said it ended up much younger than he planned. I don't think I have noticed the lipstick before. What image/art of hers is that?
  6. For quite some time now, it may seem like I have been missing from the Shrine. Yeah, I really did. Recently, I've really felt devoid of ideas to write about at the Shrine. Ran out of any inspiration or interesting topics. And the decrease in interaction with what I already created has also been a little deterring. But the final nail in the coffin has been the beginning of the exams. I really hope those will be over soon... As for something different, I actually started watching Amagami. Until now, I only had time for one arc, but I would like to get one more this weekend. First story arc has been that of Morishima Haruka. I will not go into spoiler territory with what is going on (I may have already spoiled it from her character introduction), but I think it was a nice story. Sure, like in any anime, especially those that have romantic plots, you may still have one of those eye-rolling moments, and one of the points I've seen in another video recently seems to apply (even if just like 1-2 times as of yet) about the use of female fanservice applies. But as a whole, I think the first arc has been quite a nice way to spend one evening (since it's just 4 episodes, about 24-25 minutes long). Heck, and I even ended up liking Haruka more than I expected. As for side characters, I like the way they were handles. Each of the girls still exists, even if they are downgraded to episodic appearances. Probably the characters that get most of the screentime, besides Junichi and Haruka, might be Miya (Junichi's younger sister), Umehara and Kaoru, the latter two being Junichi's comrades he might get into a friendly banter with (especially with Kaoru, it's almost like a gag through the arc). Anyway, time for next arc. This time, the story will focus on Kaoru. Given the way this series works, and the nature of the source material, I really wonder how it will handle the fact you basically make a story arc out of each game route. Does the timeline simply repeat? Does the poor Junichi live Groundhog Day each time the arc ends? It remains to be seen... PS: to my understanding about this series. Amagami SS is basically treated as a Season 1 of the series, which came out in 2010 (25 episodes). Amagami SS+ Plus is basically Season 2, and that one came out in 2012 (13 episodes). Besides the two "seasons", there are also two OVAs for Amagami SS, and the Specials for SS+ Plus. And then there is one more anime called Seiren, released in 2017 and basically considered a sequel to Amagami (I know that apparently Seiren takes place in the same universe).
  7. Honestly, I would say that we could post the next round. If we are to take it like this, it might take weeks until we are getting more replies. Especially given how inactive has the forum been as a whole recently.
  8. @Sci or anyone from the moderation team, sorry for the ping. But can someone fix a little bit the Telegram crypto scam that just randomly popped up in the thread last night? I have no idea what happened, but now it is here. I really did not wish for this thread to be brought back into discussion that way...
  9. I have considered watching Cowboy Bebop for more than 2 years. However, I do not have a Netflix account (for using the most legal way of watching it), so I'd have to borrow my sister's account (I don't have my own account due to the fact I am barely watching films and series anymore, and am too lazy to go online search for those things if I really have to actually watch them; most of watch time for things has moved to YouTube). But I have heard that series is really good, so thank you for the suggestion.
  10. I think from now on, this thread can basically be known as "Part I" of the entire discussion. Maybe it will become a trilogy?
  11. Honestly, this is the first time when I hear anyone comparing anime to soap opera, and therefore I m feeling a little surprised of the comparison. Especially when, at least here in Romania, we understand "soap opera" through the word "telenovela". But if you mean the idea of mass-production and repetitive plots/plot elements, then I may be able to see the similarity. I really have not though that the Japanese themselves would actually have problems with anime. Especially how popular and seemingly everywhere it is while walking on the streets of their big cities. As for quality stuff, I am still looking for something to start from. Yet I am not sure what anime series to start up with. I have watched all 17 episodes of Memories of Phantasm, the TeamFourStar Abridged version of Hellsing Ultimate, and was planning to watch the anime adaptation of Amagami. I will come back to this one a bit later in the reply, when I will attach some media recommendations for the continuing of the discussion. And again, this is why I am looking for some recommendation, or better said a starting point if I want to explore the medium. The entire idea of this thread started last year, based on a thread that was over 2 years ago. I have been writing on this topic since I am unfamiliar with anime, had never watched an anime or read a manga before, and just could not understand the sheer hate the entire medium of Japanese production has been receiving online on different forums. And from there, the original ("Part I") version of the thread. There are a few things I may have understood from here, and I have the feeling that all of them might be wrong. Could you please elaborate some more in here? Especially in the part related to ZUN. Interesting take, especially hearing from someone who draws (I have seen your drawings in the past, they are very good). Most of the time, I have not thought about the anime art style being lacking in originality, but at a closer inspection, there may actually be reasons for the claim. But to be honest, I completely lack artistic culture, and have quite a hard time processing a drawing more than just "I like this" or "neuron activation". I just like something, and do not actually understand why I like it. Besides, I already explained in a previous thread how I even ended up in the anime area, s well as orienting my drawing style towards anime despite lacking any sort of basis even in basic drawing. Again, I would really like to hear a lot more about the topic of the art style in itself, as well as more on the ideas you have expressed. Well, there was originally this thread: I have used Safebooru in the past, for about half a year. However, I got really bored of it, and after getting more used to the nature of content on Danbooru, I ended up preferring to use that board instead of the safe board. I am very sure Danbooru has way more content than Safebooru, even within the safe for work images. I guess it is a small price to pay for getting to all the delicious content.... Alright, in regards to the annex content I was talking about. @_.Mevs I think you will be finding these interesting, especially if connecting with your recent thread. There are 3 videos I find very relevant for the discussion, and I would like to share them. I am warning you from the start though, the longest one of them is over an hour long. The two are 40, respectively 16 minutes long. 1) This one starts on a bit of a joke note - how would an anime girl look like if you were to build one in real life. Th results are... kind of expected. However, in the second half, it suddenly turns into a psychological discussion about why we like waifus and what happens inside our brain. At least if I remember well (it's been over a year since I last watched the video): 2) The 1 hour and 15 minutes long video on the whole concept of "waifu" and "waifu-ism". A very interesting overview of the history of the concept, how it evolved in anime, as well as some of the pitfalls some series might be falling into when they design a series around a moe character instead of the characters as part of a series: 3) From the same author, again an analysis video, but on the concept of fanservice. A brief history of how it appeared and evolved in anime, accompanied by some examples of good and bad use of fanservice. And just like before, a discussion on why people may have a problem with the whole concept. I have found the entire section discussing about the reception of fanservice very interesting, as well as that in which the author mentioned the Hayes Code (which I never knew before), that may have put the United States 30 years in the past with the evolution of animation and themes approached (I have doubts though that the rest of the world outside Japan has a more liberal view on nudity and sexuality, or at least not as open as that of the "Sunrise Land"). The video about fanservice is actually very relevant, given that I have talked quite a lot about Touhou Memories of Phantasm around Christmas, as well as the use of this tool in that anime. Bonus, a lot of very quotable sentences: "I am of the firm belief that you should just mentally increase the age of any anime character by like three years because it'll make the show better. Ain't no way that Okabe this scruffy looking college dude is meant to be 18. This man is clearly like 25." (in reference to a scene presented on screen) "But hey sometimes these are just children you're showing me. That is a fucking child. I don't care if age is just a number. That number is 9-1-1 you should be in fucking prison [Ladies and gentlemen, we got him starts playing]" (in regards to another fanservice scene of more questionable nature, featuring the classic "9000 year old loli" trope) The comment section also offered some very good replies for this latter video: "The thing that really turns me off of fanservice is the recurring theme of “against their will”. SOOOO much fanservice in anime is women being exposed, groped, viewed, or straight up assaulted against their will, and it’s always played for lighthearted fun. Even shows where fanservice fun is the entire point focus mainly on girls being unwillingly sexualized, with male consequences (if any) portrayed as a simple punchline. Female characters who are proactively sexual seem to be rare (not nonexistent, but heavily outnumbered by sexy girls who don’t want to be sexualized)" "I never watched fire force, but based on what was shown here I don't think any subversion of trope could've saved that Tamaki character. Her entire thing apparently is existing to be harassed "by accident" over and over again. So even in the scenes where this somehow makes her win a fight and makes her opponent look ridiculous, she's still being harassed and humiliated and dehumanized. She's the most exaggerated example of why I've been so turned off by anime for a while and still am very cautious with what I watch. They have to include a woman being harassed for laughs at least once in so many shows and it gets fucking old really quick" (the video used Fire Force as an example of fanservice executed poorly and in improper moments) "I think it also bears mentioning that a lot of the arguments against fan service aren’t against sexuality in media, but rather specifically, the objectification of women, and portraying sexual harassment as something that is funny or light hearted. I see a lot of people not realizing that watching someone being objectified, can make the viewer feel objectified." "From what I've seen, sex and nudity in anime is never seen as intimate or a sign of trust. Sex is depicted and silly, lewd, and depraved. It's treated both as a punchline and as a gesture. Personally, I think sex and nudity in anime should be like the James bond films where they only happen if there is an actual scene of intimacy/intercourse, which never happens in anime." "I think when you were contrasting Kill la Kill to Fire Force you hit the nail on the head for me for what makes me totally chill about fanservice vs not liking it. As a woman who's watched hundreds of series, I went through a phase where I didn't mind fanservice at all because I was so desencitized to it, to it being incredibly annoying, to now trying to look at it in a more balanced way. The two things that break fanservice for me is consent and tone. Fan service for comedy or in romance shows is perfect. Not when it interrupts really impactful moments. But consent is the biggest element to me now. Consent is why I loved Dress Up Darling and why characters like Yoruichi from Bleach are amazing. Consent is why I thought Food Wars was genius when I first saw it. And consent is why I don't want to put up with ecchi shows that cheaply disrespect their characters." (oh yeah, Food Wars and Kill la Kill were used as an example of well executed fanservice) "I've seen people use the term "perv pandering" to specifically refer to the sexual type of fanservice. I always preferred that term. It feels more accurate because as a fan, often those sorts of scenes feel like a disservice to me." "Honestly I think the biggest issue you run into with fanservice is how insidious and unexpected it can be. You've got some shows that are right out there with the fact that this is what you're getting, but then there are others marketing themselves as Serious Anime, or even Art Pieces, and you get two episodes in and it's actually another box of Whoops, All Titties. This leads a lot of people in that "I like fanservice when it's in its place/unintrusive" to just...not be able to trust anime at large. The other bit is when it's lazy. There are a lot of showrunners who clearly don't think much of their audience, because they're sure we'll be content with "plot" instead of plot, when unfortunately for them the truth is most of us are well aware of great shows that have both. The idea that a non-porn show doesn't have to be engaging if it's sexy enough is just...incorrect. But it seems like writers fall for this idea all the time." "As a "not cis male" anime watcher my biggest problem with it is when it's very obviously non-consensual (like Tamaki). ESPECIALLY when the characters are clearly minors (middle and high schoolers often get this treatment) And seeing characters of my own demographic getting hyper-sexualised in these ways is extremely dehumanizing and feels very rape-y. One example is the bathroom scene in Konosuba S1, I've genuinely never felt so uncomfortable watching an anime scene, and I've seen some messed up shit. Having a very real problem get used for laughs is degrading. But I've given up on shows like Fire Force solely because of the fanservice. I don't expect many male anime watchers to fully understand just how awfully this content can affect us, but I'd love to hear it be acknowledged as this kind of media trivializes things like assault and objectification." "The most off-putting part of fanservice for me is when it’s inappropriately done to extremely underage looking female characters… and the quickest example I can give is No Game No Life" "I remember watching Kill La Kill and Ryuko being extremely embarrassed when she transformed. Throughout the show she learns to accept Senketsu and embrace her power growing as character. I don't know, seeing a lot of crazy fanservice in anime that just felt forced, it was pretty interesting to see the whole trope flipped on its head. Sits as one of my favourite shows because of it." "I usually dislike fanservice because it often ruins the tone or otherwise breaks immersion. That said Kill La Kill is my favorite anime of all time. It brilliantly subverts and incorporates the trope while managing to keep an interesting story and endearing characters. It's flashy, over the top, and surprisingly earnest. It has a distinct style that's shamelessly fun, and the goofy fanservice fits in seamlessly with all the epic shots and hectic animation." "Part of the reason why I'm put off by fanservice is that more and more anime rely on it. It's not just the occasional moment to de-escalate tensions, that in itself tends to be fine. It happens so often both within singular titles and within the anime roster as a whole to the point that it feels overdone. There are times where it makes sense, such as Ranma 1/2 and Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt where they serve as part of the premise. The former uses it occasionally and has other jokes and action happening to desaturate the fanservice; the latter tells you in the title that the fanservice is the premise but is surprisingly good with action scenes that HAPPEN to have mature jokes rather than relying solely on said jokes. What I didn't like about Interspecies Reviewers was that the fanservice was everything: the joke, the plot (even the overarching one towards the end), the motivation of the characters. While funny at times, it ruined my sense of immersion because I couldn't stop thinking about how a society could function with so many 'adult workers' (the series itself establishes that cross-breeding with succubi over generations has basically resulted in the industry). As a result, the world in which these characters reside lacks depth and the main cast lack any actual defining character traits. And that's what I feel is happening with a lot of titles: they push fanservice to the point of absurdity that cheapens the overall experience." "Personally I get really put off (almost grossed) by almost all fan service, even stuff like Food Wars’. But I can still recognize what good and bad implementation of nudity is and definitely agree on every part there. But my main gripe isn’t shows with fan service, good or bad, even if it ruins the story because I can avoid those. It’s how fan service makes talking about anime with people who don’t watch it a lot more awkward. What I love are good stories, comedic or dramatic moments, beautiful scenery and memorable characters, no matter the medium. Anime has a lot of that which is why I watch a lot of anime, not because of the lewd content but it’s weird justifying it in conversations with people who have never seen an anime before." "The last time fanservice seriously put me off was Fire Force. I’m no prude but something about the “against her will” element really turned me off to the point of finding it unbearable. The scenes with Tamaki border on sexual harassment as she is undressed and groped; She cries and feels humiliated. It’s not like it’s fun for her… I’m not usually too bothered by fanservice but I can say this one actually kind of disturbed me" "The first anime i watched fully was Highschool DXD. I was shocked about how much fanservice was in there. Then I went on to look at other things, but looking back at it I would say that it was a good start because it didn't get in the way of the story and fit due to Issei being a literal pervert but he isn't just a pervert" "It's nice to see a detailed take on fanservice and proper examples not only for and against it, but just showing how rooted it is in the medium. However, i feel like my own personal tastes are still way too against it - even with this knowledge - to really tolerate it again. I wish it weren't so, but it's just not something I'm interested in seeing. One would say maybe I'm just not an anime kinda guy, and that may be true ... but I guess the better thing to do would be to keep looking. I'm sure there's a ton of good anime out there still that doesn't really try to do anything with it ... so long as I keep digging" "To me, I always groan whenever the kind of fanservice pop up that is just in the way of the plot and trying to do things for cheap laughs. I kinda liken it to the jump-scare in horror games. Its cheap and easy and just get's a simple instinctual reaction out of the viewer. Nothing that was made with actual thought that sticks with you. The one fanservice scene I can say was well done was the second dance scene between Ledo and Amy in Suisei No Gargantaia. That one was a wonderful moment of character building and was just sweet overall. The whole thing being set to the background of auroras and a gentle flute melody really sold it" "I feel like you can have nudity or forced feeling fanservice in an anime but it needs to feel natural. Like in Ghost in The Shell the beginning of the movie you literally see her entire naked body but it'a done in a way that's supposed to be tasteful. Fanservice is totally fine in anime and if people like the anime they like because of it then more power to them, but when it's overdone and so forced it sometimes just makes me roll my eyes and it's one of the reasons I'm really not into most anime" "Maybe this is just me, but I usually dislike fan service in animes because a lot of times it’s women in embarrassing/ humiliating situations - it’s never done to make them feel cool or be in power (I’ve only seen it to be the case in rare situations). I would feel so much comfortable if they were fine with it and enjoying themselves. Many times they’re shown as innocent beings who’re not realising they’re turning the guys on by accidentally flashing them their underwears etc. Honestly, I just want the women who’re doing fan service to do it because they want to and feel like it, and I want their characters to have their own arch’s and be well developed and not there just for fan service. Erza from fairy tail was my favourite character because of this while I hated Lucy." "The tonal dissonance comes from the fact that the creators don't expect horniness to distract from the heroic fantasy of the story; they expect that it's supposed to enhance it, which is mostly only possible if you see the character more as a sex object and a trophy to be won, rather than a person who has just suffered trauma and is emotionally distraught. The problem is that you have more empathy for her than the creators expected, but that's not your mistake." (again, in reference to Fire Force) "Y'know, when you started talking about shows that weaved fanservice into the narrative, I thought back to a show for which I did fansub translations -- it was called Yumeria. And yeah, it definitely wove fanservice into the narrative; the core premise is that these overly endowed girls and a few lolis gain super powers to fight monsters by being groped by the MC. Yeah... seriously. The thing is that the narrative is overall weak and the show tries to mix in too much and it gets overall confused... like they try to fit in a conventional teen romance storyline, and then a love... parallelogram. And in the middle, the lolis sink back from being lolis to just being ordinary kids who want to be kids. And in all of it, somehow, sexual assault as a form of recharging warriors' batteries still has to drive a sci-fi narrative. The end result is that an attempt to use fanservice intelligently only gets lost and no longer appears intelligent at all. One example that I love is Mushoku Tensei. There are loads of sex jokes, typical fanservice tropes, lewd inner thoughts, all of the things that people hate, but the MC actually matures throughout the series and so, too, does the application of the fanservice. It becomes less and less out of hand and less and less out of place progressively throughout the show." "I don't mind mild fan service when it fits the mood/situation. When it takes you out of the moment for some cheap sex sale, it's really hard for me to continue watching. Like you said, it destroys the tension they were just building. There are a lot, a LOT, of series that don't do this and it's great but I wish that the "time and place for everything" was taken to heart a little more. To clarify further. I don't think there should be NO fan servive. Just because I'm not a fan of it doesn't mean other people can't have it." "Man this video gave me so much to think about regarding anime fan service. Like you just glossed over it but that fact that magical girl anime often seem to cross the line into some form of nudity frustrates me and it starts to make sense considering the lines you can trace from them back to cutie honey. You also had a pretty strong stance about how fan service can be used well or poorly, which was provoking. But it still felt like a bit of a generalization. Like there’s probably been thousands of attempts in writing and video to address why some people (ie in America) are more comfortable seeing extreme violence and gore than skin or nudity. But it still felt like a bit of an oversimplification to say the whole community is being immature by not liking nudity in anime." "The thing people fail to understand is that anime and manga are not 'art', and few of them try very much to BE 'art'. It's popular entertainment for a Japanese audience. I'm not saying that the mangaka/anime writers never have a thought in their head while creating their work, but the whole thing is very business-driven. Anime and Manga is like if Pulp Fiction never died off, or like if Western Comics never 'grew up'. A lot of manga magazines have reader votes or reader surveys, which can heavily influence the content of the manga in the magazine. If a series does not thrill an audience in any way, it gets axed. And what's an easy way to thrill an audience when you've got nothing else up your sleeve? Fanservice! When there's a slump in sales or votes, the mangaka and the editor/s they work with tend to do some hasty course correction to bring back the hype. Some mangaka do some hard thinking and rework the story. Others just say "hmm, I guess it just needs more fanservice next time..." "I’m not against romantic or sexy scenes/situations in anime. If you’ve ever seen/read Tokyo Ghoul, I think the way they handled that scene with Kaneki and Touka was beautiful. Especially in the manga. Everything was consensual, amazingly, with Touka even initiating it. Kaneki didn’t force, grope or pressure her for anything. He treated her like a person, like he cared, and was considerate of her the whole time. I thought he was very sweet, more than what you’d even get in shoujo/josei anime/manga most of the time, and this was a seinen. The audience still got their skin shots, but Touka was never reduced to body parts and strange sounds. It’s the absurd, perverse and even cruel ways fanservice is done that’s the problem. And that the female characters entire purpose is for sexual stimulation. I don’t see how it could possibly hurt to show the male characters treating the female characters with more care, decency and empathy. And for the female characters to offer MORE than just sexual arousal. Surely this would only be a benefit." "100% agree about Tamaki. almost quit the show over her first "pervert" scene. i know other people get semi nude but they never "accidently" have hands laid on their genitals as a joke." (again, in reference to the Fire Force segment) "My biggest issue with sexual fanservice in anime are more the ones where the "women" are incredibly infantilized (or straight up are young girls)... which, unfortunately is most of them." "The sort of sexual, exploitative fanservice is really what has kept me out of getting into anime as a whole, and it’s really unfortunate. There’s so much wonderful, quality content, but there have also been so many occasions when I start a show and I’m disappointed by unnecessary tiddie shots and objectification of female characters. Watching it as a woman completely takes me out of it and it’s so frustrating. I just want to watch something interesting without having to worry about being reminded of how the world views women as pieces of meat." "This video really changed my perspective in fanservice. I'm the type of person who avoids an anime the moment I notice a big titty character or skimpy clothing 'cause there's only one way that goes to, sexualization. Kill la Kill was one of those animes. I never planned on watching it, but after your explanation on how the fanservice in the show is used, it genuinely sounds like an anime I would enjoy. I guess I got unlucky on my first introduction to it. The posts I've seen on it were people being those background characters of men having nosebleeds, jaws on the floor. Some fan's (most likely male) posts completely ignore the whole point of "empowering sexuality" and talk about how "submissive an breedable they soooo look" instead. The whole rape joke and fetish all over again. Even when the anime was talking about how empowering sexuality can be, they still somehow only see it as their porno to come back to. I do plan on watching Kill la Kill after this though. Good vid and explanation over all." "Personally I think that the “anime is trash and so am I” thing is not about fan-service and nudity, but about the bottom of the barrel filth storytelling that floods the medium, like Asterisk War, or Slave Harem in the Labyrinth of another world" "For me, the bad part of fanservice is simply the tonal dissonance, and the morally questionable, for example: Clearly underage characters experiencing it, non-consensual, and intrusive to the story. In general I don't like it, but that's what I hate the most if it happens" "Your explanation of how Fire Force perpetuates fanservice negativity is perfect! I'm all for fun ridiculous fanservice, sexual expression, and sex positivity but when it's literally ruining the character's legitimacy within that world it's being done wrong. The other thing that becomes problematic in a lot of anime is when women are portrayed as unintelligent, always needing to rely on the male protagonist, or just not being capable in almost any capacity" "Not really. This is one of those situations where discussing something from within the fandom does a disservice to the complexities. In Japan, the concept of "service" predates anime and is everywhere throughout the culture. For example, before Cutie Honey we have idols, who are packaged and presented in a very similar way as anime. Especially in the 1970s, it was common for most female stars to present "fan service" in the form of nude or gravure photography. In the 1960s the film genre called "Pink film" started, where almost every woman had nude scenes, even if they were a major actor/protagonist. Within the world of adult entertainment, prostitution, etc, it's always been common practice to refer to these things as "service". The word is wildly used this way in Japan. "Fan service", is a slang that developed somewhat alongside anime, but denotes services which are done complimentary, or for free for the fans. And in Japanese we use this word all the time to refer to risky/suggestive things. Even 30 years ago it's normal ask a girl to give you "service" as a euphemism for perverted stuff. Explaining "fan service" in this way hyper focuses this to anime industry, when this is a wider, older and much more engrained cultural phenomenon in Japan. This is not anime, this is Japanese culture." "You didn't touch on the biggest problem with fan service, which is how lead R18 scenes in anime that rarely impact the plot and fuel, while not the majority, a large group of R18 culture male anime fans, especially in the Philippines and Japan. Fan service birthed Legend of the Archfiend, Redo of Healer and the excessive amount of R18 in Berserk that didn't fuel the plot and the one that did was completely trumped by making Casca basically brain dead and a target for it to be attempted on her again." "Although it's nice to see empowerment through sexualization every once in a while, I wish that wasn't the ONLY form of empowerment that gets talked about when it comes to anime. As a woman who's male friends watch a lot of anime, I'm very picky with what I watch because the way women are generally depicted in shows. Not just the sexualization, but the lack of meaningful stories, the lack of detail on the woman experience, the lack of the woman perspective on relationships. I don't want the only shows that empower women to be through extreme fanservice that they are aware of, although those shows themselves are good. I agree with including fanservice in a good way, and a big part of that is through the equality of it and "not just the hot girls" like you said for food wars, and fanservice that also fits the tone of the story. BUT! I dislike the disregard of it being male pandering because definitely, most of time, it's only for men, or maaayyyybe wlw. As a woman, seeing jiggly boobs, even in a "good" way, throughout the entire show without anything coming from the opposite sex, is unappealing. It's fanservice for male fans, not fans in general. I'm not against nudity in shows, live action or animated. But for say, live action fantasy shows showing misogyny through overused explicit rape scenes, I still don't appreciate it. I think this video essay would have been a lot more insightful if it delved deeper into a woman's perspective on anime. Throughout the entire thing, women's perspectives and psyche are talked about as a hypothetical, a concept, a mystical idea that takes aot to understand, but not a simple, real thing that can be put off by these shows. If you ever do a part two, I'd love for you to feature a woman who is an anime enthusiast where the two of you can have a discussion on this topic. Is extreme but self aware sexualization always empowering? Even if the fanservice is good for plot, is it still fun for a woman to watch a bunch of jiggling boobs on screen? Definitely feel like this was a huge missed topic." "I have only one minor gripe with this essay, and it's in the fire force section and was when talking about how Tamaki being borderline nude while begging Shinra to save her after having her clothes burnt off took away from the tension. My issue is simply that I believe it's a disservice to say it is less impactful, I haven't personally seen Fire Force but I do dabble in narrative artistry and the decision to have her not regain any form of dignity is a conscious one to show how desperate she is in that moment, she's vulnerable and weak at that point and relying on the only one of her team mates there to help her. I believe this because my basic assumption is that between her having her clothes burnt off for the gag, which I agree is distracting since she was already on the side and there was no need to poke fun at her, and her begging Shinra there was a small fight. The joke had time to make it's exit before the focus returned to her. I could be wrong about the timescale but the way the video addressed it made it seem like there was some time between the two events though that would be exclusively for the viewer. Cinematic time as it were. I pretty much agree with everything else, it is pretty bad to see a character's potential wasted for a joke regardless of context be it the weak coward archetype who doesn't ever get stronger or the overtly sexualized token girl." "Something I notice in all the clips featuring Tamaki is that she seems pretty mortified by being exposed in these ways. But, if this really is a curse that she's been afflicted with for God knows how long, shouldn't she be used to it by now? Shouldn't her coworkers? I think it could have present some interesting opportunities to have her be numb to her curse or even just begrudgingly used to it. At the very least, I think it would have gone a long way towards allowing the fanservice to exist without being so tonally dissonant. Honestly, that kind of compulsory embarrassment which is so common in anime fanservice scenes is a good example of the immaturity you refer to near the ending. The Ur example of this is the "walk-in" trope, where a character — usually a male — walks in on another — usually female — character and reacts extremely and often violently embarrassed. What always gets me about such scenes is the compulsory aspect of it, as if it were impossible for a person to react any other way. It's so ubiquitous that, when it is subverted in any way, viewers (myself included) almost always express relief that something different finally happened. It ultimately just comes down to how thoughtless most creators' treatment of sexuality is. They really seem to struggle with integrating sexuality into their characters in non-cliché ways, and allowing that integration to be informed by their a character's personality, rather than (what I can only assume) are deep-seated cultural notions about propriety and decency — i.e. Tamaki can't be too blasé about being exposed, or else certain viewers might become judgmental or disapproving, but that's opening a bag of worms I am not well-informed enough to open. Really, it's just disheartening to think that so many creators just seem unwilling to do anything interesting or unique with this subject matter." "I'm gonna throw my hat into the ring, so lets start off and say that yes I am a straight male and yes I do enjoy fanservice okay moving on. I find anime girls to be attractive, they are usually drawn that way for a reason, and as long as there's a distinct line between when its okay and not okay for fanservice then why not their fictional characters and I don't think its harming anyone. That being said, why does nezuko's boobs get bigger in her deomon form, and yes I've heard the excuse that it makes her seem older and more mature to show that shes transformed, but like the horns already do that and like even if I agree to the previous statement they don't need to be so noticeable. And then there's Marin Kitigawa, I liked dress up darling but lady really couldn't tell that she was making gojo uncomfortable or the fact that she's stripping in front of him! Giving a female character some extra cake is effectively the same as giving a male a 6 pack, its just a hint of fanservice that doesn't disrupt the show, fanservice might even enhance it in the case of chainsaw man. But Asuna falling onto kirito so he can grope her has no reason in existing. There, that's my defense and prosecution of fanservice, same time next week." "I'm pretty disappointed that you didn't really talk about the huge issue most people have with fanservice. yes, you mentioned it in passing, but not until heavily into the video. What I'm referring to is that, most if not all fan service is just sexual assault/harassments. That most fan service is extremely triggering to SA victims, how in animes where there's non consensual sexualization, the writers have no interest in showing the deep psychological repercussions that come with SA. It always "oops haha I'm so embarrassed that you explicitly touched me, anyways i dont care anymore" whereas normal humans will be scarred by that for years even. Another thing that you only grazed over that's a huge part of the problematic with fan service is the minor element. Many MANY animes sexualize minors, most MC in shonen and popular anime are in high school. MINORS. It not just something to gaslight yourself into thinking its fine because they look older than their actual age. these characters are in school uniforms, going to class, living with parents, summer break, etc. The characters are not only "technically" minors but are portrayed in their lives, clothing, scenes, and mental dilemmas as such. Last thing I wish you had spoken about is the "male gaze" and how in american film analysis that this sexualization of strictly feminine characters is detrimental to the character itself. I do appreciate your research into Kill L Kill because you mentioned how the way they used fan service in that anime was to empower the women instead of degrade them.(not quite a subversion of the male gaze but more a satire) Long story short, if your going to do a video essay on a deep dive into fan service you should cover all bases in depth instead of passingly mentioning them. Especially since the things you passingly spoke on was very serious topics that should have given a content/trigger warning at the beginning of the video. Other than that I did enjoy your video, I just don't like important criticisms to be excluded from the conversation." "I just hate how so much fan service is with minors. It’s sexualizing children and potentially desensitizing people to predators, or thinking that it’s normal and ok to be attracted to minors. I have no issue with fan service of adult characters but that seems so rare to come across in anime. It’s mostly with teenage girls in high school. And knowing how bad sexual assault and molestation is in Japan makes watching anime with so much fan service of minors that much more uncomfortable" "The "problem" with fanservice and many people forget... Japan is the target audience of manga and anime, not the rest of the world. And they have a different view in a lot of things (lolis and shotas principally). A great example is the manga kenichi, history strongest disciple: had a great story, still had some fanservice here and there, but nothing big or anything like that... but sales were down, so what happened? At chapter 300 PUM! SUPER MEGA FANSERVICE outta nowhere... the plot which was already good (at my view point) just became secondary to making every single female naked... and not a little, but fully nude and becoming an "almost hentai" type of manga... and this let the author make a new manga about spies... which has even more fanservice and is contender for "I can't believe this is not hentai" type of manga... So yeah, Japan and sales are the ones that have the last words when it comes to what we get in this side of the world" (does anyone actually read these texts I am usually inserting into the threads and comments?) If there is anything you would like to say, I would really like to continue this discussion, or any other thread I started. I have been feeling quite alone recently, especially since there has been so little activity at the Shrine since the beginning of the year, or at least past couple weeks. And this place was one of the few where I could still communicate with other people in a civilized manner and not be berated for writing too much.
  12. Honestly, I am not sure how it works besides pure anime logic. I mean in terms of the little girls being in charge of an entire realm. Unless they are supposed to be older than they look like, and ZUN just sucks at drawing/giving indications on how the characters should look like when he has someone else do the art (no offense towards the artists who have worked on that content, their art is actually quite good).
  13. What are the spiciest takes in regards to Touhou you may have or even believe in? It can be anything about either canon, fanon, the community, ZUN, absolutely anything as long as it is connected to Touhou. Here are some of mine, and they might be quite controversial: I have a severe dislike for the Simpsons/"Sazae-san" time logic applied in Gensokyo. It's been 20 year since EoSD, yet everything looks just as much as it did back then. Things do not change, nobody evolves, and somehow the status quo has to be maintained. Maybe I ended up disliking this kind of story-telling as a result of getting fed up by American sitcoms and animated series like the Simpsons or Family Guy, but in a way, I would greatly appreciate a series that grows up together with its audience. Gensokyo will always be ruled by small anim girls and lolis, to put it bluntly. Even if we go by the "they are youkai, and they are shapeshifters" interpretation, how does it come we have never seen them change their aspect? If you are a youkai and want yourself to be respected, do you actually believe looking like a 16 year old girl would be the way to do that? Especially when it comes to those who have the pretention to fight for the rule of Gensokyo - none of them looks very old, or at least old enough to count as an adult who is supposed to be a venerable entity hundreds, if not thousands of years old (Kanako, Byakuren, Miko, whoever else was there as a big deal in Symposium of Post-mysticism etc) ZUN has no idea how to draw something that does not look like a loli, and this is clearly not helped by his drawings looking like dolls. Sometimes I doubt he really intended any character to be drawn as an actual woman, even when he had other artists do the work for anything outside the main games. IN a way, I would really have liked to see someone visually grow up, and actually become an adult not just by age, but visually too given for how long some of the series ran. And for that, I believe Akyuu has been a little bit of a wasted opportunity. She does age up in the way that we actually know when she was born, and that she is a regular human, therefore with the chance of being affected by what we commonly call "growing up", yet at her age of 28, she still does not look older than 14. I would be OK with the explanation of her being small in stature, but the rest of her appearances do not really help. And fanart does not do a better job either. Even if we have a very clear age for her, a lot of fanart still likes depicting her the way she looked in the in the Perfect Memento in Strict Sense era (aka the early depictions). Event the latest canon depictions don't make her look like someone in her late 20s either. It's weird to see someone who is almost 30 look like a 14-16 year old girl at best. Yeah, you can blame it on stylization and how much anime style exaggerates features to look as cute as possible, but I just think sometimes the official Touhou art may not do justice when it comes to this kind of problem (also anime/manga art style going closer towards realistic proportions exists). Updated the old chart by adding ages just to show a little bit what I mean... Oh, and one more thing. Fans when drawing art of Touhou seem to only know two sizes: flat as a wood plans or mommy proportions (especially in terms of mommy milkers or or just being THICC). Where is the middle ground? You can add your own takes or answer to the ones already posted by other users. Anyway, what are your own spicy takes on the series?
  14. @Nekofire thank you for the reply! Given nobody wrote in here for a week, I ended up thinking this thread will go nowhere and I forgot about it. But you have brought some good points. A lot of the things you have mentioned remind me of this image, which despite the fact I have used in a different context (talking about Fusu), I think rather fits: "No anon, your waifu doesn't love you or as you go out with her, or go into any sort of romantic confession to a complete foreigner. No anon, your waifu will not allow or want you touch her in inappropriate places. No anon, your waifu will not beg you have sex with her" These are all coming from someone who has yet to even have the chance of even thinking what some of these things actually are (yeah, I still have to work on that aspect of my life...)
  15. Please remind me to come back with an actual, elaborate reply once I return from my journey. I would like to say more right now, but I have to go to sleep soon as I am leaving early in the morning. So see you all later. Oh, also @Reitisen, if you are interested, I did cover quite extensively the very topic you have talked about in 3 threads last year. But I am glad I am no longer the only one who is addressing the whole concept. Overall, it just looks as if we are just throwing it under the rug and make ourselves it does not exist.
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