Day 52: She’ll never show up again

[Juuni]

Ghost who has a cult following 

Day 52: Mima

Mima. I’m tired of that name tbh. People whenever they hear a sniff of any new touhou content, it’s all I fucking hear about. I really never liked having people influence my opinions on a character, but this is the only one that I do feel this way. There are better PC98 characters to bring back ffs, why are y’all dedicated to her specifically. Anyways, end of the Mima fans rant. Mima herself is a neat character, serving as explanation to why Marisa knows her kind of magic, and generally is a nice lore piece to Marisa. I don’t like her personality, as she seems pretty sadistic in my opinion, and it’s not fun to watch. Her themes are pretty okay as well. Her design is a high point, and I honestly think she looks pretty cool. Overall, a fine character being ruined by her rabid and feral fans.

[Gri]

8 hours ago, Juunimeta said:

Mima. I’m tired of that name tbh. People whenever they hear a sniff of any new touhou content, it’s all I fucking hear about.

Yeah, those "fan" just echo the most popular memes to show they are part of the "gang" too (some fan also can't let go). Best to ignore them. I do think that if PC98 somehow becomes relevant, then she's a must.

"She’ll never show up again": This title can be applied to pretty much 95% of the PC-98 cast. Tough now that I know you're opinion of her, the title makes more sense.

So far, I am bad at guessing (only go the "limited winter event" so far).

[Juuni]

Yeah, but there’s better choices than Mima when it comes to returners, and not to mention if we get surprised with a character we didn’t expect they could turn out cooler than Mima. Also, a bit funny on the titles thing, as I it came from the Benben’s sister joke and kinda stuck. I’m gonna keep doing it tbh.

[Gri]

I am curious: who would be better choice than Mima?

The only other ones I can think of that could come back are Yumemi (if we need someone from an outside "futuristic" world) and Shinki (since she's important to Makai). And even then, And even then I think those are a bit of a stretch. Shinki doesn't have enough screentime, so she doesn't have time to do anything interesting. For Yumemi, her story feels closed so it's hard to see her come back (unless she try and study/kidnap yokais for research)

Mima's a no brainer: She's the antagonist of SoEW, a playable character in PoDD (which slightly add interactions between her, Reimu and Marisa), and a playable character in MS (who this time around has a lot more dialog. ). I exclude HRtP since she doesn't talk, and there's no plot in that game anyway. Yeah, she's evil, but that doesn't make her a bad character.

And to be clear, that's only hypothetically if PC98 becomes relevant. I am not in the "Bring back Mima, lol" gang.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Gri

[Kurzov]

Shinki, not Shiki. Shiki's a different character

[NachoReiuji725]

Mima is good, but is she really the only PC98 character people want back? I personally want Sariel to return, as she looks sick and has so much potential. 

[Pentastar]

In the mima's fans defense she does have the 2nd highest amount of appearances same as marisa, a boss in hrtp, soew and player character in podd and ms 

[Juuni]

Personally, I actually do advocate for both Yumemi and shinki. Shinki because she holds basically all of makai’s lore and has yumeko as well, and Yumemi has an entire location and concept attached to her, along with Chiyuri. Mima as a character acts kinda similarly, being some lore for Marisa and kinda just messing around a lot. I don’t feel that she’s too special like most PC 98 characters, and has the same capacity to be interesting as Yumemi, shinki, and some other less common ones. Elly for example could show up again with Yuuka, and potentially open up some more lore on what happened between PC98 and current gen. The getsu sisters are stronger than they let on and could be cool to explore their dynamic with the world, as they aren’t particularly involved in gensokyo. You can make cases for characters that can be just as interesting as Mima, and I hate seeing people just tunnel on Mima and ignore other characters.

[Gri]

1 hour ago, Juunimeta said:

You can make cases for characters that can be just as interesting as Mima, and I hate seeing people just tunnel on Mima and ignore other characters.

True. Having an open-mind is important to uncover interesting character integration. In another post, someone wanted to make a fan-game with Mike, but people weren't interested because that character doesn't have much going on officially so it was "shut down". Depending on the game idea, it could have worked (like, we know she want to sell cards to the player, so she might be a merchant. Or maybe she just like making money and use the cards as an opportunity. Either way, you can make a game where you have to handle her shop).  

You have to be careful though to not mix what's in the official games (which often leave some gaps), and your imagination of a character. For instance: Elly. Officially, she's just another "guardian" that's get beaten by both Reimu and Marisa, and there's no connection between her and Yuuka other than they are in the same world. Imagination is fine, but not everyone will imagine the same amount of depth for character like these that get very little screentime. Worse, some people may imagine negative things about a character. There's a reason why characters that appear often, and therefor usually better defined (like Aya that has 2 spin-off games, playable in 2 main-line, and appear a lot in print works due to her being a tengu and a news-writer), are generally popular. You can't really blame people for choosing whichever character left a bigger impression on them (and having a character returns multiple time is of good way of doing that, like Mima did during the PC98 games) and not giving as much attention to a lesser-defined character that could be interesting with a bit of imagination when there's +100 more characters in the series. Maybe for those who have been in the community for a long time it's different and they are tired of seeing the same character over and over in fan-works.

Here's what I remember about both Elly and Mima without doing any research, as well as quick stuff I can imagine from that:
Elly: She's a guardian. Has a scythe so maybe(?) is related to death. Live's in Mugekkan (sorry for spelling) or maybe (?) between Gensokyo and Mugekkan , so maybe (?) connected to Yuuka. Was beaten / let slip Reimu/Marisa, so maybe (?) clumsy
Mima: She's a vengeful spirit (can imagine various relations with the other spirits, as well as her having the ability to posses someone). She was sealed (can imagine it was by Reimu or the previous Shrine Maiden. Can imagine she has a grudge against the Hakurei familly, or maybe her grudge is something else), but breaks free then fights against Reimu, but then becomes somewhat friend in the ending of MS (much like other Yokai in windows game). She's stronger at night (can imagine she's somehow related to the moon). She often lies and is mean to other people, making fun of them without losing her cool. She teached Marisa magic (can imagine many thing of that). 

For me, it's easier to see Mima as a more relevant character than Elly given how many official stuff she has going for, and this it turns makes it easier for me to imagine various scenario involving Mima. It could be different for you. I picked Elly as a mere example. 

Btw, I sort-of written my previous message as "If I had to pick only ONE character to represent PC98, who would I pick" (forgot to actually mention it though). I don't want to turn this post into "Mima's good, actually", just that there is some merit behind Mima being one of the more popular PC98 character (other than the meme, of course) 

[Eulogous]

9 hours ago, Gri said:

In another post, someone wanted to make a fan-game with Mike

Oh hey that was me lol

The shop angle is pretty spot on with one of the concepts I had. Mike, being a merchant inherently suggests responsibilities and goals that aren't explicitly shown. Knowing how to take inventory, setting prices, having a personality to make a sale, etc. Her stock must have come from somewhere, so that opens doors. What she's based on is a symbol of fortune, so it's not really a stretch to assume humans wouldn't outright fear her.

For some reason, the people I meet need like a huge dedicated chapter in a print work for a character, or be playable in a game to even be worth considering in anything. The main idea is to pioneer something with a character, to attempt to get others to understand what you see in them.

 

9 hours ago, Gri said:

There's a reason why characters that appear often, and therefor usually better defined (like Aya that has 2 spin-off games, playable in 2 main-line, and appear a lot in print works due to her being a tengu and a news-writer), are generally popular. You can't really blame people for choosing whichever character left a bigger impression on them (and having a character returns multiple time is of good way of doing that, like Mima did during the PC98 games) and not giving as much attention to a lesser-defined character that could be interesting with a bit of imagination when there's +100 more characters in the series. Maybe for those who have been in the community for a long time it's different and they are tired of seeing the same character over and over in fan-works.

It's a popularity feedback loop. Ex. Aya appears in something = more exposure = more chances to leave an impression = more people willing to use her in things, repeat.

As someone who composes music and helps on fan projects, it feels really stagnant when I always get requested to make stuff for the same pool of characters over and over. It's absolutely character fatigue for me in that area. I often make suggestions to try something new, and I get lectured on why using any minor relatively unpopular character is not worth the effort... until another person/circle elsewhere does something with said character that becomes popular, and suddenly we loved them the entire time, and appreciate the effort and dedication to said character.

 

13 hours ago, Juunimeta said:

Personally, I actually do advocate for both Yumemi and shinki.

Same, though I lean more towards Shinki. Makai is established in Windows and visited in UFO, and outside that the many games it appeared in suggests a huge magical dimension with scenery and locales with no equivalent in Gensokyo. Yumemi is a teacher from the outside world, so there could be interactions with Sumireko or Sanae. A random thought I had once was her being a substitute teacher in a village school.

I'd really only like Mima to come back to see how her apprentice has come along in her absence. Marisa need something new besides jobbing for Reimu. I can't really say that Mima isn't important, since she appears in 4 of 5 PC-98 games, 2 of which are playable. Her fans can definitely be annoying, but the people who constantly dunk on her fans can be worse. It paints the picture that all PC-98 fans only want Mima and are insane.

 

[Yumetou]

On 8/23/2023 at 11:45 PM, Juunimeta said:

Ghost who has a cult following 

 

I mean...she is a god. Joking aside, as one of the feral fans of this evil spirit, there are a couple reasons I choose to die on her hill. The first, yes, is its 'le funni me me' for the fans. But there's more than that. She is often the first nugget of obscure lore a fan wanting to get into the franchise comes upon. And with her unique design and placement in the series, she makes a strong impression on someone who sucks at bullethells but wants to hang out with the cool kids.

Speaking of, her design. Despite its many elements, its very appealing while not being overly complex, very easy to update. She is very self-assured and confident, as well as magically potent. As I mentioned in Yumeko's persona thread, confidence is a great trait in a villain. It makes them endearing, while also priming us for excitement when she is defeated. And yeah, she is sadistic and even petty compared to other characters, and that does make her stand out compared to other villains in the series. Her good endings also offer some potential for growth which would have been interesting to see. Either coming to accept her place in the world alongside the heroines, or deciding to pursue godhood.

 

A big reason why I want her back however, is...she fits so closely in the lore and the characters I care about. She is imprisoned on the Hakurei grounds, and has been for years. To the point she knows more of the Hakurei Shrine, its god and the orb than Reimu does. She taught Marisa how to use magic as her mentor. She appeared in every PC-98 game but one. Thousands of people saw Mima as the first alternative character in the series. In any other franchise, she would be a staple, closely tied to three of the main heroines, and a consistent figure in the background. But she isn't. And there isn't really an explanation why. Her only canonical mention since the switch to Windows, was her appearing on the cover of a manga she wasn't in. That's it.

Of the many early characters, only four made the cut to Windows, even if elements of others were recycled. There are plenty of PC-98 characters I would like to see reappear. Gengetsu and Mugetsu, Yumeko, Shinki. So while Mima is the most prominent 98 character to be ignored, its not like she's the exception to the rule. Still, none fit so deep in the lore as Mima. Despite being perhaps the most significant figure in the backstory of the two main heroines, and with plenty of potential for growth, she has almost no legacy in modern Touhou.

Some Mima fans seem convinced that we just have to hold onto hope. That if the memes and fan theories and false 'Mima is appearing in 2hu 69 guys!' continue, then eventually Zun will give in. They point to Flandre reappearing in the series after 17 years, or Ran coming back into the limelight. Ignoring the fact Flan is consistently one of the most popular characters in the series, and Ran was a personal request by Toby Fox whom Zun did a collab with. They hold up oblique references made by Akyuu and Reimu in manga to a past 'evil spirit' as a sign she is coming back, despite these being years old at this point. Others think Mima is the key to getting other PC-98 characters in. They think because Mima is more popular and prominent, she will be a perfect Trojan horse to get Elly, Shinki or Yumemi into the series again. I don't need to tell you how that's worked out.

I think its been so long Mima would not fit in modern Touhou. Not without a whole other game to reintroduce her. There's been 27 mainline Touhou games since her last appearance. There are fans today who weren't born when Mima was around. Personally, I have made peace with the fact Zun buried Mima in the backyard. My personal coda for Mima is after her last adventure she found peace. She reconciled with Reimu, embraced a crying Marisa and left for the afterlife. Because its a better sendoff than 'And she was never heard from again', regardless of how in-character that is for Reimu...

 

 

You do fan works @Eulogous? I've been thinking of making a game series partly inspired by Touhou someday, when I'm less chewed up by life. Would you recommend making fangames as a buildup for that? Hearing Juuni and you talk about your favorite characters has been an energizing experience.

[Eulogous]

7 hours ago, Yumetou said:

You do fan works @Eulogous? I've been thinking of making a game series partly inspired by Touhou someday, when I'm less chewed up by life. Would you recommend making fangames as a buildup for that? Hearing Juuni and you talk about your favorite characters has been an energizing experience.

I absolutely recommend trying out fangame development, however there may be hurdles. My experience with the Touhou fangame dev community has been somewhat atrocious at times. Though, I guess it'd also depend on what field you'd be working in. I'm mainly a composer, though I can provide game design consultation, story scenarios, and help other people figure out how to make the "game" portion of a fangame.

However, I have no permanent circle/team, so Touhou Fangame Jams become my main method of networking. Jams can be fun, but it can be extremely frustrating to be on a team that regularly ignores any concerns you have, and said concerns are dismissed because, if you're not a programmer, you just don't know what scope or game design is apparently. I still volunteer anyway, as it's experience all the same, and being discarded afterwards has its upsides too. Huge downside is that the work period is always only like 3-4 Days of game development time, and that Jams are the only time most people seem interested in actually making fangame content (I want to help with projects outside of Jams, but they like never happen).

Speaking of Jams, there's an upcoming one starting around September 1st. It's a chance to test out some concepts I had for a shmup fangame if things go well, or at least gauge interest in said concepts. If not, I'll probably be some other team's composer.