Who is the worst Touhou character, in your opinion?

[Sir I]

^^^^

Edited August 10, 2023 by Maniac Privateer

[Sci]

Cirno :^)

[Juuni]

I would’ve said sumireko, but Reisen II is worse tbh. Reisen II is such a nothing character for someone who got a book.

[Pepi]

Any character that is designed to just be stage filler. For example, Koakuma (she literally lacks an official name).

[Yumetou]

The maid robot from the early games. Not only does she only exist in the ending for two slides but she was a rippes reference to a 90s maid anime. She's been in Reimu's closet for 25 years and has shown no signs of coming out because she sucks at her job.

 

But you didn't want an easy answer like that. You wanted something with controversy and bad opinions. And since Sci picked Cirno I feel a little attacked. So I'm just going to say it.

 

Ran.

 

I'm serious she's consistently been one of the most recognizable characters in the series thanks to hentai but what has she actually done? She was a secret boss in one game, kind of appeared in the sequel and had no personality. The fandom had to make one for her as a doting mother, when she mostly just ignores Yukari's orders and picks fights with humans. Then Toby Fox whiffs the chance of a lifetime to get Mima back in the series because he was bewitched by foxgirl milkers. Just like poor Daiyousei is nothing without Cirno and Koukouma nothing wiithout Patchy, Ran is nothing without her slave Chen and her mistress Yukari.

[nitorii]

tbh I don't really hate any character but if I were to pick I'd probably say joon
just cause she's cringe, unlike her sister shion which is the best touhou of all time!!!11!1!!11!!1!

[Eulogous]

Reimu. I have chosen this hill to die on.

I find it very hard to enjoy her character or root for her in any way, but she's the protagonist so she has to appear in just about everything, and that makes it worse. Having an unlikable protagonist and not be strictly morally "good", like other protags in media, doesn't automatically make you "cool" or "better" than those protags. Assaulting and robbing Tokiko in CoLA for no reason, and then pawning off her books doesn't add some deeper angle that subverts our expectations out of a main character, it makes her an asshole. Telling Kogasa (a Tsukumogami that doesn't even eat humans) in UFO "Youkai exist to be exterminated" is all kinds of messed up.

There's also that time she killed the Fortune Teller while saying:

Spoiler

Maybe I'm weird in not seeing cruel demeanors as "badass". Yeah yeah, I get it, "Fortune Teller had to die, because leaving him alive would inspire other humans to become Youkai." But I don't go, "Yeah, you're right", I go "So when Marisa gets further along in becoming a Magician, are you going to outright slaughter her too, your closest friend? It would only be fair, since full Magician = Youkai in this setting, right?".

Now, I would have no problems with this if there were any consequences for her, but... nope.

Reimu can't lose due to her divine super luck. She also doesn't even have to try. The Fairies of Light try to prank her into falling into a river? The fish form a bridge the entire way across it, and she is unaware of it. The duel with Marisa in CoLA? She stands still and Marisa misses every shot and immediately loses. Sure, Reimu lost to Yorihime, but that fight wasn't fair in the slightest, and most people don't even like the character who won. Also not helping is that she doesn't even know the name of the Hakurei God of which she is a shrine maiden for (and doesn't seem to care either).

The silver lining to this would be that most characters in-universe don't like her, but even that gets undercut a bit. Remember Cheating/Foul Detective Satori? How about we forget the character the manga is named after and focus on how Mizuchi is affecting Reimu personally. What about the time she interrupted and ended the talks between Byakuren, Miko, and Kanako in Symposium of Post-Mysticism?

I guess I'll try to say something that I actually like now. So...

I like her portrayal in WaHH and her back and forth with Kasen. They take her traits of "grumpy" and "lazy", and portray it in a sort of running-gag way, and her shortcuts to success often backfire. It's honestly refreshing to see. There was also the time Clownpiece lived under the shrine, and Reimu just let her because she was effectively a free heater in the middle of Winter. Reimu even showed off her heated shrine to Marisa, which was funny. Maybe it's the moments where she can just be a person and indulge in the setting, instead of having to be the badass shrine maiden who's super pissed all of the time, that I like.

 

9 hours ago, Yumetou said:

Ran.

 

I'm serious she's consistently been one of the most recognizable characters in the series thanks to hentai but what has she actually done? She was a secret boss in one game, kind of appeared in the sequel and had no personality. The fandom had to make one for her as a doting mother, when she mostly just ignores Yukari's orders and picks fights with humans.

Ran does have a minor role in Silent Sinner in Blue, where her personality is being very analytical. She starts providing all of the info she's collected to Yukari, and is stopped midway because she's going into too much detail. It's very boring, so the fandom coming up with a replacement personality was inevitable. My problem with Ran is that, for someone who is supposed to take care of most things while her master is asleep the entire day, Yukari sure is awake during most plots and handles many things herself, thus making Ran's entire role redundant and pretty pointless for the most part.

The only things Ran has going for her in canon is her design, and violently rotating into enemies in Imperishable Night. Also, Chen exists for her I guess.

[Sir I]

First one, Aya. Yea, yeah, you don't want to read me where I trash your favorite girl, but I have to say it. This lady made my game session on Touhou 9 into a living nightmare, like what beef you have with me?! I just wanna beat the game and get the ending. Oh, but it doesn't end here, we've got Touhou 10 ~ Mountain of Faith. This game is Aya at her worst. In stage 4, a bunch of fairies shoot at you like thy want you dead, and Momiji shooting one of the horrible bullet patterns ever witnessed in my eyes. Then I am like almost low on resource and Aya decides that it's """fUnNy""" to throw at me harsh bullet patterns. It sealed my opinion about her, knowing that she is basically an annoying character. Also, her photo games are not fun, and it's made for torture.

Second, Seiga. No words, just no words . Okay, she is an egomaniac who will use anyone, and I mean ANYONE, including a dead zombie fetus, which is what the heck, dude?! Are you mentally deranged that you'll use a dead fetus to become your slave? Just a person that'll avoid.

 

Okay, but in all serious, I don't like Aya for gameplay reasons. She is just unfairly hard in my opinion.

Seiga... I hate her, that's all.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Maniac Privateer

[Yumetou]

13 hours ago, Eulogous said:

Reimu. I have chosen this hill to die on.

 

I’m actually of the opposite view on Reimu. I find her selfish nature endearing. To explain why, here as my guest presenter is the star of the greatest indie game ever made, THE Alex Yiik from Yiik. The dev designed Alex to be an unlikeable character, because that is a trait you want in someone you’re going to be stuck with for 20+ hours. And while he is unlikeable, very little of it has to do with his personality. He spends most of the game with no motivation, only acting when one of the many ‘quirky’ characters in his life tells him to do something. The entire plot begins because a cat steals his grocery list. Alex comes off as a pretentious idiot who thinks loquaciousness is an equivalent to intelligence. Driven solely by his carnal designs on his female friends in between being annoyed by his companions or family.

Reimu doesn’t have this problem. In fact her motivations are laid out pretty clearly. She wants a life of adventure, but she also wants to be lazy, but because she is lazy she is also poor. It’s a nice little cycle of weaknesses which feed upon one another, while being very relatable to the audience. It also creates complications for her. Her desire to fight Youkai instead of her actual job means her god isn’t on speaking terms with her, while her laziness means no one comes to the shrine. Feeding into her character flaws.

That said, yeah I do think your examples are this nature being pushed too far. Especially since she has friends who are Youkai. Aside from Yukari, there is Suika, Sukuna, Auun. Even Alice is halfway to becoming a demon. I think the only fully human people she even knows are Marisa and maybe Sakuya, in the games at least.

The more time you spend with the fandom, the more you realize a lot of accepted lore is inferred or speculated. Its where a lot of misconceptions come from, but where a lot of sweet details come from as well. As simple as Ran’s fan-based personality is, yeah it’s cozy to see the Yakumos as a happy family, rather than Yukari’s flesh puppets. One inference I choose to accept as canon is the idea Reimu’s grown warmer towards Youkai over the years thanks to her friends. It creates a nice little arch, which would complement the examples you laid out. Overcoming your flaws and misdeeds through the friendships you made.

 

A quick aside. One weird side-effect of her being the protagonist, is a lot of fan works or fan crossovers present her as the virtuous shrine maiden. Even longtime fans who know better can lean hard into her being a heroic character. And you know what? She is so. Damn. Boring, like this. In the M&B mod Gensokyo Warfare for instance, she is presented as a heroic character who built a coalition to resist Remilia and Kaguya’s armies and as a great democratic reformer. While I could see her making a multiracial republic, the Reimu I’ve read about and seen wouldn’t do it out of a sense of nobility. She would do it as a way to pass on more of her work to others, flex her status and give her friends cushy jobs. But no the mod plays it straight. She’s proactive and noble and it’s really weird. The only hint of her true nature is at the head of her biography where she laments they can’t all sit down, talk things over and eat snacks together like they used to.

I’ll take my shrine maiden who kills Youkai on sight over a generic magic girl with a Shinto skin.

 

12 hours ago, Maniac Privateer said:

First one, Aya.

 

I haven't gotten far enough in the series to comment but fake news birb good.

 

Spoiler

 

[Pepi]

15 hours ago, Yumetou said:

I’m actually of the opposite view on Reimu. I find her selfish nature endearing.

Reimu doesn’t have this problem. In fact her motivations are laid out pretty clearly. She wants a life of adventure, but she also wants to be lazy, but because she is lazy she is also poor. It’s a nice little cycle of weaknesses which feed upon one another, while being very relatable to the audience. It also creates complications for her. Her desire to fight Youkai instead of her actual job means her god isn’t on speaking terms with her, while her laziness means no one comes to the shrine. Feeding into her character flaws.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

ZUN is clearly aware of Reimu's selfishness and weak morals.
That's why Byakuren is such an effective antagonist, she brags to Reimu a way to balance the hierarchy of Humans, Youkai and Gods. But for some reason Reimu is against that, is there some hidden answer as why Reimu is so reluctant? (aside that debilitating her god even more).

In Detective Satori (spoilers ahead)

Spoiler

You can see Reimu's facade vanish. She was initially terrified of Mizuchi (maybe it reminded her of Mima?), but when you think she surpassed her initial fear, there are some moments of weakness where you see her try really hard to keep her composure.
It's refreshing to see Reimu actually caring, instead of her usual indifference and annoyance when dealing with incidents.

I really enjoyed Byakuren lecturing Reimu about being selfish and Aya in the background writing in her notebook "Reimu was only worrying about herself". It also gives her character development, because Byakuren noticed that the only one who was calm during the situation was Reimu.

Most of the time she solves an incident, it's because it's her duty, but the reasons are mostly selfish in nature. Just like in MoF, the reason she stopped Kanako was to win the shrine competition.

Reimu can be interpreted around the topic of balance. If she tries too hard, things will fail, but if she is completely lazy, things won't work out either. Although it's very in favor of Reimu being the king of lazy people, but hey she is the protagonist, at least her plot armor is literally her ability.

 

On 8/11/2023 at 6:23 AM, Maniac Privateer said:

First one, Aya. Yea, yeah, you don't want to read me where I trash your favorite girl, but I have to say it. This lady made my game session on Touhou 9 into a living nightmare, like what beef you have with me?! I just wanna beat the game and get the ending. Oh, but it doesn't end here, we've got Touhou 10 ~ Mountain of Faith. This game is Aya at her worst. In stage 4, a bunch of fairies shoot at you like thy want you dead, and Momiji shooting one of the horrible bullet patterns ever witnessed in my eyes. Then I am like almost low on resource and Aya decides that it's """fUnNy""" to throw at me harsh bullet patterns. It sealed my opinion about her, knowing that she is basically an annoying character. Also, her photo games are not fun, and it's made for torture.

Skill issues are tough. Keep practicing!

Aya is a great character, i especially like her in Detective Satori.

Spoiler

In the last three chapters, she realized that something was off and in a time frame so quick Marisa couldn't follow her, she figured out what kind of trap was set up, and she rushed to tell Reimu about it, not risking anyone's life directly.

 

[Eulogous]

18 hours ago, Yumetou said:

I’m actually of the opposite view on Reimu. I find her selfish nature endearing.

Never said I disliked her personality, I even said that enjoyed her Wild and Horned Hermit portrayal. Her motivations are fine, and her lore can be interesting, I just don't like the random jumps to the extremes of that personality (like you say later). I mention the whole spiel about being cool and badass, because when something like the Tokiko assault happens I ask myself "What does this really add to the story?".

 

Reimu is one of the worst characters, to me, because I don't know if the Reimu I'm getting is the one I like, on top of losing out on another character's perspective.

 

Talking about characters you don't like is difficult in this fandom. People often make you out to be the Peanut Gallery, put words in your mouth, or they assume your reasonings. Like, if I were to say: "I don't like Sumireko", people go "Oh, you don't like her because you think she's a cringe teenager, right? How dare you!" then jump down your throat with that assumption in tow, and the paragraphs ensue. My reasoning could be that she needed more time to develop properly, but they have long since deemed you an uninformed hater.

 

20 hours ago, Yumetou said:

Reimu doesn’t have this problem. In fact her motivations are laid out pretty clearly. She wants a life of adventure, but she also wants to be lazy, but because she is lazy she is also poor. It’s a nice little cycle of weaknesses which feed upon one another, while being very relatable to the audience. It also creates complications for her. Her desire to fight Youkai instead of her actual job means her god isn’t on speaking terms with her, while her laziness means no one comes to the shrine. Feeding into her character flaws.

I would love it if there was a manga that centered around Reimu in that way, instead of her having to wander onto someone else's stage. No big overarching incident, just a story focused on what she wants to do.

 

21 hours ago, Yumetou said:

A quick aside. One weird side-effect of her being the protagonist, is a lot of fan works or fan crossovers present her as the virtuous shrine maiden. Even longtime fans who know better can lean hard into her being a heroic character. And you know what? She is so. Damn. Boring, like this.

Yeah, the one-note good guy shtick is very boring.

[Yumetou]

4 hours ago, Pepi said:

ZUN is clearly aware of Reimu's selfishness and weak morals.
That's why Byakuren is such an effective antagonist, she brags to Reimu a way to balance the hierarchy of Humans, Youkai and Gods. But for some reason Reimu is against that, is there some hidden answer as why Reimu is so reluctant? (aside that debilitating her god even more).

In Detective Satori (spoilers ahead)

I'll have to check out that one. Especially since Satori is a character who seems light on lore. Seeing things from a mind reader's perspective is sure to be interesting.

 

12 minutes ago, Eulogous said:

Never said I disliked her personality, I even said that enjoyed her Wild and Horned Hermit portrayal. Her motivations are fine, and her lore can be interesting, I just don't like the random jumps to the extremes of that personality (like you say later). I mention the whole spiel about being cool and badass, because when something like the Tokiko assault happens I ask myself "What does this really add to the story?".

Scool. I didn't mean anything by my thoughts, nothing derisive at least. More compare and contrast. Especially since characters who are protagonists with genuine character flaws are rare. But you're right, when the protagonist is robbing children for pocket change its a bit too far, and her being the central character of the games does focus the narrative around her innately in a work not focused on her. Even if I tried to bridge our thoughts together with a feel-good message about the power of friendship and how it can change you for the better.

A manga around that sounds like it would be compelling. We could get her insight into all sorts of things, from how she feels about Alice and Marisa dabbling in the occult to her inner thoughts on Yukari. You could play on a sense of loneliness with that. She is one of the few true humans in the series, and with no family and no contact with her god you could slowly build her change as she connects with characters. Perhaps even reflect on who she was and why she was like that. A lazy author would probably make the manga a lot of inner monologues, but a creative artist could do a lot with her face. Sometimes a simple reaction is all you need to understand someone's impression of something.

I've been starting RPs in the roleplay section trying to breathe a little life into it. One concept I had for a character in my most recent game was actually themed on blue Reimu. The idea for it was what a character like Reimu would be like if she had no friends. Making all her worst aspects bubble to the surface and suppressing her positive traits. What I came up with was a cruel, dangerous figure dedicated to complete Youkai eradication. I hesitate to suggest the idea. Since the lazy approach is having that as a shadow personality or a Nintendo style 'Dark Reimu'. But a shrine maiden with a thirst for adventure and hate for Youkai could be an interesting antagonist. The most frightening antagonist is one which could almost be a friend of the protagonist. But, now I am rambling.

[Pepi]

49 minutes ago, Yumetou said:

I'll have to check out that one. Especially since Satori is a character who seems light on lore. Seeing things from a mind reader's perspective is sure to be interesting.

Sorry to disappoint you, but Satori rarely appears in that manga. Don't get me wrong, it gives a lot of lore about her, but she could appear more.

[Yumetou]

Life's not fair, is it?