Who is the Kami of the Hakurei Shrine?

[Yumetou]

 

Of all the characters in the series, the Kami of Hakurei Shrine is both one of the most important background figures, and one of the least prominent. Reimu derives her powers from that god, and the shrine is the most iconic setting of the series. The name of the god however is so forgotten only Rinnosuke and maybe Mima know its name. We are only given snippets about it from the series, but not enough to tell its nature or personality. We know that it is angry with Reimu, because she would rather exterminate Youkai and loaf than gather faith. We know that it cannot receive faith, because its rituals and charms have been so ignored by her. As near as I can tell, there's only two games which even reference the kami.

 

Zun prefers to only illuminate characters when he feels the time for them comes, and doesn't let the fandom press him on his choices. After 31 games, we are unlikely to have any answers anytime soon. So, I thought I would ask you, the true hardcore fans, the question that has weighed on my mind for the past five minutes. Who, or what, is the Kami of Hakurei Shrine? More than that, what is your reasoning? Is it a logical fan theory, or just something cool you want to see happen? How would you implement them into the series after 25 years of scarce information? And what would the return of the kami to the series mean for the characters of Gensokyo?

Edited October 23, 2023 by Yumetou

[nukinom]

It's obviously ZUN, who else?
Seriously tho, probably just someone we haven't seen (and might never see tbh)

Edited October 28, 2023 by nukinom

[Pentastar]

I feel it's something that will never be explained for "mystery and backstory", how would it fit into the series 

[Yumetou]

In all likelihood? Yeah, it'll probably never really be touched upon. Its too late in the series to realistically broach it, and wouldn't add much value to the lore at this point. But hey, that's the boring answer. So let's try something else.

 

 

Answer the question, or the klepto-witch gets it.

[Hikiko Hime]

Some theories here:

*The TRUE final boss of the Touhou Series as a whole: The 'final game', whichever it may be, will reveal it. (Would be both cool and sad)

*There is no ONE Kami, similar to how Yorihime calls upon many. (implied in Silent Sinner in Blue that they both have a similar ability)

*As I recall in Shinto, there is no ONE particular Kami and as such, Reimu has the "wildcard" ability lmao.

*There is no Kami for Hakurei Shrine: Being a "shrine maiden" is for presence/tradition, and she is, in fact a "Yokai Slayer" rather than a religious/spiritual figure, but by presenting herself as a "Shrine Maiden", then people naturally believe/are intimidated by the title.

*Too much caffeine theory: Jo'on took all the money long before Reimu's time and now Shion haunts it since no other place is as desolate and fitting.

 

(I have a few more but lets leave it at this lol)

[Juuni]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:44 PM, Hikiko Hime said:

*There is no ONE Kami, similar to how Yorihime calls upon many. (implied in Silent Sinner in Blue that they both have a similar ability)
 

The issue with this is that though shrines can change hands in ownership, they only belong to one god. For example, moriya has kanako, myouren technically has bishamonten due to shou, and hakurei we don’t know. Reimu’s god channeling is similar to yorihime, just not as “at will” as yori. The shrine in general seems to not have any people worshipping for one specific thing, which is why it’s so hard to pinpoint the god. 

[Yumetou]

Its not helped by the fact that Reimu is a lazy wastrel. We get some insight into the god and what it wants in the early game. But its virtually untouched on in subsequent games. We don't even know the god's domain or personality. Part of the reason is its simply not really relevant to the story. While seemingly the source of Reimu's power and training, it doesn't take an active role. One reason why I thought this would be fun to speculate on. :)

 

Looking at the lore, I think the character who most fits the role of the Kami is Yukari. She is clearly a woman of immense power (I mean she is so strong she enslaved a powerful yokai as her minion, who in turn enslaved another yokai). She is repeatedly at the center of Gensokyo's formation and history prior to Reimu's rise to power, and has a vested interest in Reimu's success and power. She also is very protective of Gensokyo. If my memory serves, she imposed the Spell Card rules after Remilia's arrival. She also banned eating human flesh, and humbled the youkai in a pointless war when they had plans to spread outside Gensokyo. It also fits the implication she is a human who became a youkai. If she could grow from a human to a youkai, why not a youkai to a kami? Humans have become both in Shinto after all, and her deeds would qualify her for the rank of Kami...that is, if anyone worshipped her.

 

In my fanon though? Its Mima. And not just because I have a fascination with the major character turned baby's-first-piece-of-obscure-touhou-lore. Mima has a very significant place in early Touhou lore, being both Reimu's most persistent antagonist and unwitting ally. Its also the period where we had the most information on the Kami. Portrayed as a forgotten god angry at Reimu for being forgotten. A sentiment which describes Mima to a tee. Angry Kami can become 'evil spirits' like Mima, especially when they are forgotten or unhonored. Mima is also clearly a powerful being, with an interest in keeping Reimu alive against her other enemies, and while sadistic never pushes her torments of Reimu too far. She seems to lack a long-term goal outside of being seen as a god and keeping Reimu's attention, yet gladly fights demons and monsters alongside her supposed sworn enemy.

 

For my final proposal, I would suggest ‘the meta option’, my Reddit tier fan theory. That the Kami of the shrine is...you. The player. Think about it. The Kami is a figure who is unknown to Reimu, one whose name and nature she does not even know. Simultaneously, that Kami empowers her, giving her abilities to fight youkai. These all could be applied to the player. The 4^th wall is never broached to the best of my knowledge. Reimu has no idea of your presence, despite the fact that without you she is powerless. Its a story you have no place in, but without you is impossible. I'll take my karma and gold now.

Edited January 7 by Yumetou

[Hikiko Hime]

On 1/6/2024 at 2:15 PM, Juunimeta said:

The issue with this is that though shrines can change hands in ownership, they only belong to one god. For example, moriya has kanako, myouren technically has bishamonten due to shou, and hakurei we don’t know. Reimu’s god channeling is similar to yorihime, just not as “at will” as yori. The shrine in general seems to not have any people worshipping for one specific thing, which is why it’s so hard to pinpoint the god. 

So you're saying even my joke Yorigami sisters theory is more likely? lol. But good point in debunking it since where here to discuss and try to figure this out.

 

21 hours ago, Yumetou said:

Looking at the lore, I think the character who most fits the role of the Kami is Yukari. She is clearly a woman of immense power (I mean she is so strong she enslaved a powerful yokai as her minion, who in turn enslaved another yokai). She is repeatedly at the center of Gensokyo's formation and history prior to Reimu's rise to power, and has a vested interest in Reimu's success and power. She also is very protective of Gensokyo. If my memory serves, she imposed the Spell Card rules after Remilia's arrival. She also banned eating human flesh, and humbled the youkai in a pointless war when they had plans to spread outside Gensokyo. It also fits the implication she is a human who became a youkai. If she could grow from a human to a youkai, why not a youkai to a kami? Humans have become both in Shinto after all, and her deeds would qualify her for the rank of Kami...that is, if anyone worshipped her.

I gave this some thought and came up with something to add on: Rather than Yukari being the Kami, I believe that Genoskyo itself is the Kami. Yukari, then, I believe would be the physical manifestation of Gensokyo. But if everyone knew Yukari is Gensokyo and its kami, that may attract more unwanted attention and deter her from protecting it. But if she's just a "very powerful Youkai" then she is, at the end of the day "still only a youkai" and merely feared.

So through Reimu's actions is how she 'gathers the faith" in a more roundabout way. The Shrine itself would be her true base and the "poverty" of the shrine would be intentional to keep the excessively curious from figuring this out.

I'd say even Reimu doesn't know and that too is part of Yukari's plot. Reimu would be too obsessed with wanting to relax, getting donations, etc. rather than trying to ever genuinely sit down and think about where her powers come from. Her personality happens to be the ideal type for Yukari to manipulate, which is probably why she was chosen (something I don't recall ever being shown/mentioned: How Hakurei shrine maidens are chosen. Even if one argues "bloodline" then who chose the very first Maiden? Reimu clearly isn't the first one...)

Someone brought to my attention recently that many outsiders who come into Gensokyo tend to first appear at the Hakurei Shrine, as if the shrine itself is a "gap" or rather, that it is the borderline between Gensokyo and the Outside World, as in, it is the only place that overlaps the two, but only Yukari is able to fluidly go between them.

So then, perhaps the Torii itself of the Hakurei Shrine is the final border between the 'mundane' (outside world) and the sacred (or 'fantasy' in this case: Gensokyo) and the moment one walks into Hakurei Shrine, they are in a unique place in Gensokyo that is "closest to the outside world" but still not quite there.  Taking this into account, no one would ever think that gate is "reversed" as the Hakurei Shrine is the least sacred area in Gensokyo as it is the 'closest to the outside world" Once you step outside the shrine and into the rest of Gensokyo, is where the 'sacred fantasy' begins. Even if this is isn't completely accurate in terms of how Shinto Shrines work, Hakurei Shrine is no ordinary Shrine to begin with and therefore I believe some exceptions could in fact be accurate.

I hold an additional theory that Yukari keeps everyone imprisoned within Gensokyo and thus why no one can leave it unless she allows it. After all, no matter how powerful you are, if no one believes in you, you're no 'kami'.  If people started leaving Gensokyo and if Yukari is indeed the Kami of Gensokyo as a whole/Gensokyo itself, then she would lose faith/followers/power if people started leaving.

Going back to Gensokyo=Kami: Both us in the outside world and the residents of Gensokyo who believe in Reimu's power to resolve incidents and protect Gensokyo are where the faith comes from and thus why, give or take, "Reimu always wins when it matters" despite clearly not being the single most powerful being within Gensokyo.

Lastly if Genso=Kami=Yukari, she may actually "nerf' Reimu to only be able to utilize her full power when needed, both to hide her true identity as a kami and the physical strain it would cause Reimu as she is, at the end of the day, still human.

 

[suyu_]

maybe ZUN is the Kami after all

Edited January 8 by suyu_

[Nyoko]

Sorry Hikiko Hime, but there is official material that shoots holes through your theory.

But first, the reason why the Hakurei shrine is a rundown place is because Reimu is trying to fix it up. Her ability to float has allowed her to walk across a river unknowingly without getting her socks wet because the fish jumped to allow her to walk across as the three fairies noticed when they tried to trick her into getting her socks wet. To add to that, Kasen Ibaraki made sure Reimu knew she was fighting someone because she bet on the opponent and knew Reimu would likely lose if she did that. Thus it can be assumed that the more Reimu tries to do something the worse that something gets done. The shrine is also in a perpetual state of poverty (Sounds like a game title: Touhou Kanraiden ~ Perpetual State of Poverty) because Reimu does her best effort to not be poor.

There are frequent (enough) events at the Hakurei shrine that it would be weird if the "overly curious" as you put didn't get into at least one gathering at the Hakurei shrine. From the annual Spring flower-viewing held at the shrine to the parties to the one time Kasen presented her right arm as a museum piece in the shrine itself; I would actively disbelieve any attempts made to say that the Hakurei shrine is not a social gathering place for Gensokyo. Especially because Immaterial and Missing Power's incident revolves around there being too many parties at the Hakurei shrine.

Yukari is also not the only one who can freely travel between Gensokyo and the outside world, Kasen Ibaraki can too. Yukari even laments on Kasen not taking what are essentially sterilization protocols causing western dandelions to invade Gensokyo, overthrowing the Japanese dandelion. Okina can too, but likely because of doors on the back of humans in the outside world rather than any backdoor boundary shenanigans (pun intended) and likely sterilizes like Yukari in her land of the back door.

Reimu is also a lot more powerful than she lets on, as her last word of Imperishable Night, Fantasy Heaven, is stated by Marisa to both be something she can keep up for until the enemy is defeated and that she can do that technique whenever she wants. Something she can also do in Scarlet Weather Rhapsody and Hisoutensoku. So it would be a stretch to say she can't deal with any potential unshackling of the true power of the Hakurei shrine's Kami.

Though I do agree with the thesis that Gensokyo is the Kami of the Hakurei shrine as I see no issues it poses or can pose to already established canon that I happen to know of. For as far as I'm aware too, the Hakurei shrine does not have a special building to keep the holy object safe, suggesting that the object in question is either an ethereal thing or too large to steal; both of which fit Gensokyo to a T.

[EPRA]

Gensokyo and its residents, such as the many youkai, gods, and other entities, share some similar behaviors with humans. There is always the possibility of another incident occurring, whether it be another invasion from hell, the moon, or some other place, or simply another enormous change in the existence of Gensokyo, like the awakening of the Saigyo Ayakashi. With residents or entities that have access to Gensokyo and the power to create, obliterate, and destroy life, worlds, as well as the rules and borders of reality and physics, it would be wise to keep the Hakurei kami hidden as much as possible. With entities that are immortal in a world subjected to constant change, honor, and boredom for those to whom it applies, it would only be a matter of time, not probability, for the Hakurei kami shrine to be attacked, as it is one of the fundamental principles of the existence of Gensokyo. Keeping the powers and rituals hidden from everyone except those who rely on its power is an integral and safe way to ensure that future and potential enemies of the Hakurei kami and its allies do not know how to strike and attack them at their core. It would be akin to striking not in the darkness of a forest, but in a vast vacuum where you fall into. There is clearly something where your presence is felt and moving, yet there is nothing to hold onto, recognize, or affect.

The Hakurei kami is powerful enough to maintain its authority, as demonstrated by the effectiveness of Reimu's abilities and power. Despite claims that the Hakurei kami does not receive enough faith, Reimu was able to defeat Kanako Yasaka and Suwako Moriya, who were two gods with enough faith to have physical embodiments, in contrast to the Hakurei kami.

But as stated by Byakuren Hijiri, the Hakurei kami is very angry that it is not worshipped because Reimu rather "hunt youkai all the time" instead of taking her buisness at the shrine more seriously. so maybe not all goals of the Hakurei kami and it's allies are met or fullfilled and it can't actually peform certain actions or materialize or make certain information and goals clear. It could also be that the Hakurei kami does have enough fait, but chooses or is forced to prioritize it differently, making the Hakurei kami unable to materialize but giving Reimu immense power when needed.

In a Gensokyo subjected to constant changes, incidents, powers, and problems, the best way for controlling parties to guarantee safety is to focus on being effective rather than following "rules" and traditions as others do. Being a somehwhat controlling factor from above. And so far, it has worked for the Hakurei kami, its shrine, its allies and its miko's.