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Thoughts on the EOSD remake?

Very excited to see such a classic enter the modern gaming environment. I really would not at all mind every Touhou game eventually getting some sort of representation on Steam. The real barrier to entry that needing to seek out downloads and use fan patches poses shouldn't be underestimated; Besides, this provides the most real avenue to actually support the creator when obtaining this game.

I don't particularly care for all the effort put into "remastering" the game because personally I like it how it is for its historic value, but I understand that the circumstances related to creating a release for modern environments necessitated work that made touch ups like they are doing very tempting.

As for whether looking towards remakes signifies some sort of fall for the future of the series, I think it is worth attention that it seems most of the work on this remake is by a separate team of people. I don't expect the focus afforded to this to have any effect that wasn't to be had regardless, and it seems to me incredibly valuable to preserve these works of art in more accessible ways. And as for the choice of EoSD, I don't think that it should be assumed that other games won't get similar treatment, and regardless, I think it just makes most sense to go in order.
 
erlking said:
I'm not gonna lie to you, nobody giving a shit about that review then.

People who genuinely don't engage with the content they "larp", will not engage outside of posting tiktok edits and crap. If people larp anime and tv shows, both of which all you need to do is sit through, what makes you think they'd engage with a game like Touhou that requires a skill level to beat?

If someone wants to REALLY enter a series, they'll likely choose the most accessible entry point for them to experience what it is like. Especially in Japan where Touhou's popularity "actually matters" and they're highly opposed to piracy, newer fans will choose to buy the EOSD remake just because it's more accessible by being sold on PS5 and S2.

It's not about making a "definitive entry point" as much as it is making the most "accessible entry point" to beginners.
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It's funny that you say all this because I was made aware of this remake by a larper who said they'd prolly give the series another go now. I did recommend MoF and the rest of the soft reboot era to them but alas larpers gonna larp. So that's partly why I think it would be much better if Zun made an actually clearly marked and good entrypoint to the series instead of nostalgia baiting. Ofc it is nice that the EoSD remake makes the technical requirements much lower but why cant we just have both at the same time? It's also really stupid how all the entries that exist on steam get effectively hidden by how steam store language filtering works. But maybe that could finally get solved with some community translations now.
YuyuFumo said:
So the entry you'd recommend newbies play instead of the most vanilla one is...the second most vanilla one. MoF certainly has a lot more quality of life improvements, but I'm failing to see why EoSD is an 'incredibly bland' game when MoF's only real gameplay differences are the faith system, bombs costing power, and rank being moot.
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I suppose you can call MoF bland as well but that is clearly a stretch and even if true MoF still serves as a good gateway into some of the best made games in the series like SA. Obviously something like SA or UFO is more interesting and complex but stuff like all the shottypes and bomb caveats in the former would just scare and confuse a newbie. MoF is also an easy and forgiving game which is very important for onboarding new players.

My main gripe with EoSD is that it mostly focuses on micro dodging rather than macro planning. Meanwhile PCB is anbsolute snooze fest with what might be the worst stage 4 ever made and the cherry blossom gimmick encourages bad habits. IN is for sure the best of the 1st gen with the time gimmick being acceptable. However what kills IN is the vertigo nightmare that you get from combining hyper saturated danmaku colors and scrolling backgrounds. Meanwhile MoF being back to basics while focusing on macro rather than micro is why I think it's prolly the best entry. For example I really like DDC but if a noob runs into Kaijin too early I can see how that'd be a complete disaster. Therefore, MoF having no real gimmick is a non issue since the gimmicks aren't really what makes a game fun or boring anyway. Rather it's the whole package that matters in the end and the gimmicks job is to elevate that experience and if doesn't do that then it might as well go. For example I would have much prefered a blander MoF style rendition of UFO without the stupid ufos and I don't think that's a particularly extreme opinion.
 
niftyryanyan said:
for those who haven't seen it:

Personally I'm quite glad to see it although I was curious on how other people are feeling about it.
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My wallet is reeady to by anything ZUN has created...
 
Gxse said:
My main gripe with EoSD is that it mostly focuses on micro dodging rather than macro planning. Meanwhile PCB is anbsolute snooze fest with what might be the worst stage 4 ever made and the cherry blossom gimmick encourages bad habits.
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Brother, MoF is a game that's way more micro-dodging heavy than EoSD. Most of TH6's difficulty comes from the sheer amount of random patterns and spell cards there are, which forces the player to be quick with thinking and reacting to oncoming danmaku. Regardless, players are going to have to learn to micro dodge at one point or another, so I fail to see why it makes a game "bad for a beginner" or "boring". And if you're arguing that supernatural borders from PCB encourage "bad player habits" by allowing them to tank a hit/clear the screen for free, then the same can be said for the overabundance of power items in MoF allowing players to spam bombs through most encounters that aren't drawn-out boss fights.

It seems we're going to agree to disagree on what we find "bad/boring" for new players and the semantics of individual titles, but you can't deny that the remake at least provides another option for people wanting to get into the series. Plenty of folks have said it before me, but simply being able to play Touhou on a home console or with some new bells and whistles (regardless of their quality or my opinion on them) will open doors for those looking to jump into the main games, whether it be the best title for them to start on or not. Everyone's experience is pretty individualized, and it shows with there being no overarching consensus on what the "best beginner Touhou game" truly is outside of not starting with SA/UFO/LoLK.
 
YuyuFumo said:
Brother, MoF is a game that's way more micro-dodging heavy than EoSD. Most of TH6's difficulty comes from the sheer amount of random patterns and spell cards there are, which forces the player to be quick with thinking and reacting to oncoming danmaku. Regardless, players are going to have to learn to micro dodge at one point or another, so I fail to see why it makes a game "bad for a beginner" or "boring". And if you're arguing that supernatural borders from PCB encourage "bad player habits" by allowing them to tank a hit/clear the screen for free, then the same can be said for the overabundance of power items in MoF allowing players to spam bombs through most encounters that aren't drawn-out boss fights.

It seems we're going to agree to disagree on what we find "bad/boring" for new players and the semantics of individual titles, but you can't deny that the remake at least provides another option for people wanting to get into the series. Plenty of folks have said it before me, but simply being able to play Touhou on a home console or with some new bells and whistles (regardless of their quality or my opinion on them) will open doors for those looking to jump into the main games, whether it be the best title for them to start on or not. Everyone's experience is pretty individualized, and it shows with there being no overarching consensus on what the "best beginner Touhou game" truly is outside of not starting with SA/UFO/LoLK.
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To add to all that, basically every Touhou game has some form or another of "mechanic" or "gimmick" different from the rest of the series' entries. I've already said before about how I see IN as a great game for beginners, but even still, each game could be considered a "great" entry for each person. I saw at least a couple people before whom got into the Touhou games through SA and LoLK. So, it really and truly does depend on who prefers each game. It's something like that which shows that ZUN (at least in my opinion) is great at making games.
 
Listen, i got into touhou on SoEW and i LOVED IT! The modern games are without a doubt better and more engaging than that so again,
We should just let the newbie’s get into it however they want to. :ThumbsUp:
 
10MaddEM said:
Listen, i got into touhou on SoEW and i LOVED IT! The modern games are without a doubt better and more engaging than that so again,
We should just let the newbie’s get into it however they want to. :ThumbsUp:
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The first stage theme from SoEW (Hakurei ~ Eastern Wind) is among my favorite PC-98 Touhou themes.
 
YuyuFumo said:
Brother, MoF is a game that's way more micro-dodging heavy than EoSD. Most of TH6's difficulty comes from the sheer amount of random patterns and spell cards there are, which forces the player to be quick with thinking and reacting to oncoming danmaku. Regardless, players are going to have to learn to micro dodge at one point or another, so I fail to see why it makes a game "bad for a beginner" or "boring". And if you're arguing that supernatural borders from PCB encourage "bad player habits" by allowing them to tank a hit/clear the screen for free, then the same can be said for the overabundance of power items in MoF allowing players to spam bombs through most encounters that aren't drawn-out boss fights.

It seems we're going to agree to disagree on what we find "bad/boring" for new players and the semantics of individual titles, but you can't deny that the remake at least provides another option for people wanting to get into the series. Plenty of folks have said it before me, but simply being able to play Touhou on a home console or with some new bells and whistles (regardless of their quality or my opinion on them) will open doors for those looking to jump into the main games, whether it be the best title for them to start on or not. Everyone's experience is pretty individualized, and it shows with there being no overarching consensus on what the "best beginner Touhou game" truly is outside of not starting with SA/UFO/LoLK.
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Do we have different definitions of what micro means or something? When I say micro intensive I'm referring specifically to those random patterns such as the constant rain spams which overly test reaction times. I'd say it's not in the spirit of danmaku to squint at your character instead of looking at the general pattern and a game like EoSD is likely to make that a habit. Obviously there are still patterns every so often in later games where you have to look barely ahead and play reactively but as far as I'm aware it's not the norm.

Anyway I brought up MoF because I think it's a good entrypoint and later highlighted some specific reasons for why I wouldn't recommend PCB or IN when others would. However, specifically for IN its main issues could be fixed with a simple graphical remaster. While its stages would still be a bit long and time would still be awkward but it's not like that breaks the game. This is exactly why I think this remaster is misguided because this exact approach could have been used on IN if Zun wants to feel the waters before commiting to a proper gameplay remake but alas.

But to reiterate my point is that remaking EoSD like this is wasted potential and serves as bad gateway for new players so if he want to start "simple" he should have picked something else like IN.
 
Chorritien said:
Guys do you know the difference between Touhou Koumakyou the EoSD New Classic and Touhou Koumakyou the EoSD. Because they are both 18.25€ in Steam
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new classic is the remake, it has some qol stuff and rearrangements of the original music. The other one is the standard version eosd from 2002.
 
Damn, I'm coming late.

Real shit, I think that is a great move. Already, the team at Shanghai Alice Reprise managed to reverse-engineer and remake EoSD, which I heard was lost for years until now (anecdote, not sure). Plus, for the Japanese fans and their negative vision on piracy and game modification: this is basically a godsend. People can play the original EoSD through their consoles/PCs and play the EoSD-NC as well, instead of scalping for a original copy. It gives new fans a more appealing mean to start playing Touhou games and learn about the lore.

Gameplay-wise, the refreshed graphics does help much more. While it isn't that bad in EoSD, EoSD-NC have a far more vibrant color palette and helps to make bullets more noticeable in your peripheral vision. It's a big deal to me as I have protanomaly: partial colorblindness to red tones (just so happens that EoSD literally contains Scarlet, which is a red tone.. duh.) Sprites are well-done, also have the point of the color palette being much more contrasted.

Music-wise... I'm divided. Now, I do have a different vision as to how the music of Touhou should sound but, the main appeal of the game to me was it's soundtrack. Now, I have listened to the songs up to Stage 4 (I'm not really great but I'm also not advantaged neither). While the current third-gen music signature sounds fine, and the insertion of new effects makes it feel different, it isn't ground-breaking. Maybe I expected too much, that I'll admit. It simply doesn't live up. It doesn't feel special, the mood and ambience feels weaker: I wouldn't jam to this as much to the original MIDI/DirectSound compositions. The MIDI/DirectSound compositions has a far more recognizable sound signature and the charm comes from the fact it is made with limited hardware. I think I'm still not fully grasping the thing that I dislike the most about the soundtrack, but I'll say that if I were ZUN, I would have took a different direction with the songs. Something that intensify further the original feel and tones of the songs instead of reinventing the wheel. Make a song like Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17 more "military-march like", emphasize on it's dynamism with it's piano to add further to it's Chinese influence. Make Voile, the Magic Library more mysterious and distant; darker. I sentence my stuff at the same time as I translate it into my mind so it's all over the place but;

TL;DR: EoSD-NC's soundtrack is fine. Not ground-breaking, but different. The third-generation sound signature is present as the songs accommodate the ZUNpet (which previously did not) but it feels weaker: it's like ZUN re-arranged those tunes in the same way as someone tries to reinvent the wheel. They don't feel like extensions to it's first EoSD compositions but they simply don't strike a cord. They lack what makes them recognizable and great in the first place, those original songs are unique from one-another. From what I read from the descriptions, this was his intention and fine, whatever. Just doesn't get to me as much as the MIDI/DirectSound original variants.

This is a rant part but, as much as bringing back EoSD is important: I believe there are bigger stuff to fix first. Subjective but, the third-generation Touhou cast feels like a deadweight more than anything else: I would've changed my direction to focus on making those characters integrated in the world of Gensokyo first before going with EoSD-NC. Making a new sister series to Touhou around the third-gen cast to reframe their purpose and make them relevant in the grand scheme of the land and the other Touhou cast, for example. Then again, this is not really relevant to the discussion.
 
Chorritien said:
You're righg thx, but do you know where is the deluxe version?
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deluxe version only adds the ost doesnt it? and no one uploaded it yet afaik. in any case you can check for the ost in downloads > official content > music > official osts
 
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