SateriCat17
Neko Youkai Meijin
If ZUN actually does decide to go back and remake the PC-98 games, then my respect for him would be absolute.
Thoughts on the EOSD remake?
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SateriCat17
Neko Youkai Meijin
Well, I'm not someone who finds really any of the Touhou games to be underwhelming (besides mainly with UM). But even still with UM, I find Tsukasa's meddling behind the game's story to be very interesting.
FluffyGensouDreamer
Onshi
HOLY CRAP EACH DAY WE ARE CLOSER TO THE MIMA!
Yeah, we are DEFINITELY get remakes for Touhou 7 and 8 before pc98 (grrr) but hey, it's gonna be great to see my favorite early windows game getting a remaster (Touhou 7).
FluffyGensouDreamer
Onshi
I get your worries but cmon, let's try to be a bit more positive. And more when is the man itself.
Yeah and this game is in collaboration with tasofro and other circles, so everything should be under control.
Yeah, as more that I hate how overrated the first windows games are, I think is clear that ZUN needs to find a way for people to easily play the first games to get more people into the series (since 6, 7 and 8 are the most popular games surprisingly)
10MaddEM
bullet hell fanatic
DUDE, PCB was the first one i really got into!!
FluffyGensouDreamer
Onshi
What I'm surprised is why he does wanted to SUDDENLY make remakes now and not before? Damn, I think the nostalgia of touhou 20 may hit very hard for him.
I mean sure, Touhou 19 was a disaster and 20 feels too oversaturated with how choppy it feels to play the game, but to me 18 and 17 were fine, so I'm surprised why some have these mixed opinions about these two games.
FluffyGensouDreamer
Onshi
Best early touhou windows game, let's go!
SateriCat17
Neko Youkai Meijin
I feel like he's probably been thinking about remaking the early games for years, but that he just didn't know how until he decided it'd be better to work with other people to help in making the remakes. Plus, probably nostalgia too. He's definitively mentioned having nostalgia for his older works, even earlier on in the omakes of some of the games.
SateriCat17
Neko Youkai Meijin
And, good for all of us that nostalgia has even extended to the PC-98 games.
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EnhancerMarieX9
Onshi
This is quite amazing remaking EoSD! Interesting how ZUN decided to come back to the classics-Possibly remastering others in the future? That would be quite lovely. Considering the price, I think it would definitely be worth purchasing. On top of that, the new gameplay would make things easier for new players to try the series, or simply replaying EoSD for the most part. I do appreciate how there is classic mode in case anyone would like to play a replica of the original.
Hopefully ZUN will continuously have new ideas for future games, If he wants to of course
Hopefully ZUN will continuously have new ideas for future games, If he wants to of course
YuyuFumo
Silly Ghost Princess
I'm going to play (scarlet) devil's advocate here and say that I'm not impressed with the remake from all the information that's dropped. While I do agree EoSD is a game that (even by windows standards) is in reasonable need for a remake, this official release does less than what fan mods and patches have been doing for years on end.
Being able to run the game in native windows and translating to other languages? Thcrap has that covered.
Updated visuals and hitboxes being present while focusing? The re-texture pack has been doing that since 2008.
A better practice mode that allows you to try spell cards and stage sections to your heart's content? Thprac is a godsend for everyone.
There are two things I will commend the game on, and that's the updated sprites being more in line with TH19 and the remastered soundtrack. That soundtrack is the one thing I'm actually looking forward to as, despite the great compositional value in EoSD's songs, it's obvious that the music software ZUN uses to make them has gotten significantly better since 2002. Certain tunes such as "Apparitions Stalk the Night" and "Lunar Clock ~ Luna Dial" haven't had the luxury of receiving remixes through later games or the ZUN Music Collections either, so hearing them with modern software will be a treat regardless of the game's quality.
That's really where my positives end, though. I find it quite perplexing that, despite new sprites being done up for the characters, the portraits have only received an HD glow-up from the original release. It rubs me the wrong way, as some of them look like the original portraits were plugged into an AI upscaler and the team called it a day. I personally would have preferred new portraits to match the updated sprites, but then I suppose some fans would throw a fit that they changed the old, crappy designs to more anatomically correct ones.
The game will now have a toggle for infinite lives...which really doesn't serve much purpose other than to be a crutch for first-time players or stupid journalists who don't like to 'git gud' at these sorts of titles. Now, the game might troll a bit by stopping you at Sakuya as the original did if you played on easy mode, but I don't see that happening with the amount of blow back it'd get from the fans (seriously, people on r/Touhou are already bitching that ZUN not have Sakuya blue ball players on easy modo). What the game really needs is a proper spell practice in line with what IN (and by extension, thprac) has. However, nowhere in the trailers was that feature advertised or showcased, leading me to believe no such thing will be implemented.
The only reason I could see people buying this is to 1) have Touhou on a home console instead of it being confined to a PC, 2) virtue signal that they have a 'legitimate copy' of EoSD, and 3) support ZUN and Team Shanghai Reprise to remake future games in the series. I'm particularly cynical about that last point, as it's all but guaranteed that they'll eventually do remakes of PCB and IN (i.e. titles that don't need remakes like EoSD) when this game sells 999 Cirn-illion copies. You can hold out hope that they'll do the smart thing and remake the first five titles (God knows SoEW would benefit the most from it), but that's not going happen because 95% of the fanbase doesn't give a fuck about PC98 Touhou.
Road to Hell is paved with good intentions, and this remake isn't an exception to that rule. I don't want to see the series become yet another snake devouring its own tail that so much of the industry is nowadays. ZUN is certainly taking a step in the right direction by involving other people that are passionate about the series instead of riding solo when it comes to making games, I just feel that attention has been placed on the wrong thing. Maybe I'll be right, maybe I'll look like a jackass years from now; All I can do is hope for the best of the franchise's future.
Being able to run the game in native windows and translating to other languages? Thcrap has that covered.
Updated visuals and hitboxes being present while focusing? The re-texture pack has been doing that since 2008.
A better practice mode that allows you to try spell cards and stage sections to your heart's content? Thprac is a godsend for everyone.
There are two things I will commend the game on, and that's the updated sprites being more in line with TH19 and the remastered soundtrack. That soundtrack is the one thing I'm actually looking forward to as, despite the great compositional value in EoSD's songs, it's obvious that the music software ZUN uses to make them has gotten significantly better since 2002. Certain tunes such as "Apparitions Stalk the Night" and "Lunar Clock ~ Luna Dial" haven't had the luxury of receiving remixes through later games or the ZUN Music Collections either, so hearing them with modern software will be a treat regardless of the game's quality.
That's really where my positives end, though. I find it quite perplexing that, despite new sprites being done up for the characters, the portraits have only received an HD glow-up from the original release. It rubs me the wrong way, as some of them look like the original portraits were plugged into an AI upscaler and the team called it a day. I personally would have preferred new portraits to match the updated sprites, but then I suppose some fans would throw a fit that they changed the old, crappy designs to more anatomically correct ones.
The game will now have a toggle for infinite lives...which really doesn't serve much purpose other than to be a crutch for first-time players or stupid journalists who don't like to 'git gud' at these sorts of titles. Now, the game might troll a bit by stopping you at Sakuya as the original did if you played on easy mode, but I don't see that happening with the amount of blow back it'd get from the fans (seriously, people on r/Touhou are already bitching that ZUN not have Sakuya blue ball players on easy modo). What the game really needs is a proper spell practice in line with what IN (and by extension, thprac) has. However, nowhere in the trailers was that feature advertised or showcased, leading me to believe no such thing will be implemented.
The only reason I could see people buying this is to 1) have Touhou on a home console instead of it being confined to a PC, 2) virtue signal that they have a 'legitimate copy' of EoSD, and 3) support ZUN and Team Shanghai Reprise to remake future games in the series. I'm particularly cynical about that last point, as it's all but guaranteed that they'll eventually do remakes of PCB and IN (i.e. titles that don't need remakes like EoSD) when this game sells 999 Cirn-illion copies. You can hold out hope that they'll do the smart thing and remake the first five titles (God knows SoEW would benefit the most from it), but that's not going happen because 95% of the fanbase doesn't give a fuck about PC98 Touhou.
Road to Hell is paved with good intentions, and this remake isn't an exception to that rule. I don't want to see the series become yet another snake devouring its own tail that so much of the industry is nowadays. ZUN is certainly taking a step in the right direction by involving other people that are passionate about the series instead of riding solo when it comes to making games, I just feel that attention has been placed on the wrong thing. Maybe I'll be right, maybe I'll look like a jackass years from now; All I can do is hope for the best of the franchise's future.
FluffyGensouDreamer
Onshi
I like that you actually think a bit more deeper and have very solid points. Yeah is very great to have a remaster but seeing what you said, yeah, maybe it could have been better.
Though, I still think is a great advancement nonetheless, and as long that ZUN doesn't lose his own identity against corporations (to become just like any generic anime filled with fanservices or gacha games), then I guess is fine for now. Let's wish for the better though.
daichungus
Onshi
My personal intuition on why PCB and IN are likely to get remakes besides "completing the trilogy of early Windows bias" or the obvious specific market to tap is because of a bigger technical issue, which is the Year 2038 problem, which affects all titles from PCB to MoF. (More info here)
Issue vary by game (with PoFV failing to load entirely), but generally, loading the score screen or attempting to view/save any replays will result in the game crashing. The gameplay itself is unaffected, but what's the point if you can't save your score? (namely to unlock Extra+ Stage). For replays/the serious community, I suppose that either 1) a patch that at resolves this issue becomes available, but not backwards compatible with old replays. 2) the rest of the affected games besides EoSD gets decompiled and thus we can have 64-bit time implemented (unlikely). 3) the current and "easiest" option is to simply tell people to turn back the system clock (I wouldn't be surprised if this gets disabled in Windows or macOS, or layers of abstraction gets added to make it more complicated).
TL;DR even if EoSD:NC is a cash grab to capitalize on EoSD bias, there are bigger reasons why some of the later (extremely popular) titles will also get remakes. I also wouldn't be surprised if we don't see mainline games for a while, or at least not on a yearly basis, since it's quite obvious this was the "busy thing" that ZUN and the others have been working on.
P.S. On the PC-98 games, I agree with the stance that they'll probably never get official remakes. But I also won't be surprised if ReC98 eventually gets abandoned (for one, building requires Borland Turbo 4.0J, in a (probably emulated) PC-98 DOS environment). In that case, preserving the original game files (not just HDIs) is far more useful for now.
不人气的大狸子
Tanuki
Well, I spent the whole day playing CS2 yesterday, so I only heard about the EOSD remake quite late. The news has caused a huge stir across the Chinese Touhou community, especially since these past few days have also been marked by a controversy involving certain doujin copyright issues.
To state my conclusion first: I support it, and quite strongly. This will be the first official Touhou game with an official Chinese localization. According to a Bilibili post by JoesSR, a leading figure in the Chinese Touhou community, the localization work seems to have begun several months ago.
EOSD occupies an exceptionally special position in Touhou history. It laid the basic framework for Touhou as we know it today. Therefore, while acknowledging that reproducing a classic game involves considerable technical and experiential complexity, choosing to remake it is a bold decision.
EOSD has a kind of sharp, simple, and even slightly unstable quality that is unique to early Windows-era Touhou. Its visuals are not particularly gorgeous, and its system is not especially complex. A remake will inevitably change these aspects, which may lead some people to feel that it has lost the most original look and feel of EOSD.
I do not want to comment too much on the gameplay, because in truth, I am not particularly good at STGs. I would rather analyze the subsequent impact of this decision. That said, I do think the infinite-lives mode is a good idea. It is very friendly to newcomers and is also well suited for modern players who want to fully experience the stages, music, characters, and story. As a tool for community promotion, this is a positive development.
I have a bold inference: perhaps the EOSD remake will become the version most easily accessible to newcomers, and it may naturally replace the original version in the public memory. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but the community should be aware that the remake may become the new standard. At that point, discussions about what EOSD is will change in almost every respect. For veteran players, the best attitude is not to shut newcomers out by saying, “If you haven’t played the old version, you don’t really understand Touhou.” Instead, they should treat the new version as an entry point and then introduce the old version as part of Touhou’s history. If the Touhou community handles this well, the remake will expand the community. If it handles it poorly, it will create a new hierarchy of contempt.
I am very much looking forward to the upcoming PCB and IN remakes. This is undoubtedly a milestone event for Touhou, an IP that already has a history of thirty years. Touhou is entering a new stage: it is shifting, at least in part, from being centered on ZUN’s continuous individual creation toward the official reorganization, re-release, and reinterpretation of assets from past works.
This is a necessary, timely, and strategically significant remake. Its most important value is not nostalgia, but the fact that it gives Touhou a modernized entry point into the original works once again. It deserves anticipation, but not blind praise. It deserves support, but also serious scrutiny.
To state my conclusion first: I support it, and quite strongly. This will be the first official Touhou game with an official Chinese localization. According to a Bilibili post by JoesSR, a leading figure in the Chinese Touhou community, the localization work seems to have begun several months ago.
EOSD occupies an exceptionally special position in Touhou history. It laid the basic framework for Touhou as we know it today. Therefore, while acknowledging that reproducing a classic game involves considerable technical and experiential complexity, choosing to remake it is a bold decision.
EOSD has a kind of sharp, simple, and even slightly unstable quality that is unique to early Windows-era Touhou. Its visuals are not particularly gorgeous, and its system is not especially complex. A remake will inevitably change these aspects, which may lead some people to feel that it has lost the most original look and feel of EOSD.
I do not want to comment too much on the gameplay, because in truth, I am not particularly good at STGs. I would rather analyze the subsequent impact of this decision. That said, I do think the infinite-lives mode is a good idea. It is very friendly to newcomers and is also well suited for modern players who want to fully experience the stages, music, characters, and story. As a tool for community promotion, this is a positive development.
I have a bold inference: perhaps the EOSD remake will become the version most easily accessible to newcomers, and it may naturally replace the original version in the public memory. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but the community should be aware that the remake may become the new standard. At that point, discussions about what EOSD is will change in almost every respect. For veteran players, the best attitude is not to shut newcomers out by saying, “If you haven’t played the old version, you don’t really understand Touhou.” Instead, they should treat the new version as an entry point and then introduce the old version as part of Touhou’s history. If the Touhou community handles this well, the remake will expand the community. If it handles it poorly, it will create a new hierarchy of contempt.
I am very much looking forward to the upcoming PCB and IN remakes. This is undoubtedly a milestone event for Touhou, an IP that already has a history of thirty years. Touhou is entering a new stage: it is shifting, at least in part, from being centered on ZUN’s continuous individual creation toward the official reorganization, re-release, and reinterpretation of assets from past works.
This is a necessary, timely, and strategically significant remake. Its most important value is not nostalgia, but the fact that it gives Touhou a modernized entry point into the original works once again. It deserves anticipation, but not blind praise. It deserves support, but also serious scrutiny.
raizen1227
Onshi
Buy it yourself you sissy
raizen1227
Onshi
Touhou 8 Remake would be crazy
raizen1227
Onshi
You are onto something. It may be a sign of the touhou end times
erlking
What a sorry ending to this tale, is it not?
I feel like you're drastically over blowing what the EOSD remake actually is.
EOSD was released 24 years ago, and it's really inconvenient to play on modern hardware as well as lacking QOL features the future games would have (example, seeing your hitbox when focusing).
I see this remake as ZUN making EOSD much more convenient to play for newer fans since it's on Switch2 and PS5 alongside Steam. I wouldn't be surprised it's the case considering he brought back Flandre because of a kid's drawing.
If it was for the money I don't see why it would be so cheap compared to other current games either. If ZUN really was all in for the money, we would have seen a bigger push of Touhou into gacha related content, same way other popular japanese IPs like Dragon Ball or Fate have been doing.