Why are Touhou fans seemingly so thirsty?

[ACE_DEUCE]

I have a few questions and notices:

• I have never checked the e-hentai website (I am honestly feeling way too ashamed to now I scrolled through such a source even if I had to do it for actual research).
  
• For the Gelbooru part, have you also added the "Questionable" label? Because from experience, the "Explicit" label only seemed to be used for images depicting intercourse (so no images of just half naked or full nude 2hus). Also Danbooru seems very weird nowadays, especially as the labels seem to have been changed to things like "General" and "Sensitive" instead of the old "Safe" and "Questionable".
  
• In the case of Rule34, if only 1.4% of the content is tagged as "Touhou", then where did the reputation of Touhou being among the most depicted things on that website come from?
  
• Same question for Pixiv as in the case of Rule34 - where did that popular idea of how much Touhou smut there is come from?
  

For Gelbooru, if you account for questionable posts as well, it's bumped up to around 5%. As for R34, the data I have is based on rule34.xxx, which has no "sort by popularity" option for tags. Taking a look at R34 Paheal, it does indeed show that Touhou is the second most popular tag in terms of intellectual property, only lagging behind My Little Pony. Despite this, however, it still only accounts for around 2% of posts, which goes to show how wide of a net Rule34 really casts. Given this, I'd say it's safe to assume that even on the other website it's also among the biggest tags despite the low share.

As for Pixiv, I personally have no clue. It probably comes down to the fact that until recently, you couldn't search for tags in english on that website, and people would just commonly underestimate how much of an absolute colossus Pixiv actually is (as of 2020 it was 100 million submissions and counting, so currently it's entirely possible that Pixiv holds the equivalent of 20 Danboorus, likely much more if you count the fact a single submission can hold several images, sometimes dozens per submission).

Alright, now that things seem to be settled for the time, part 2 of the question. We have gone through the creations themselves. The more philosophical question remains to be answered - why do people crave such kind of content? This is where the "thirst" part comes into play. Yes, we do have a lot of NSFW art. But since there is so much of it, it also means there is a high demand for such content. Where does this demand come from?

To me, it is funny how many times I get into a discussion started by an image of a Touhou girl drawn to be atractive, or with little/revealing clothes. Some people are joking, others seem to be unironical in their demands to [REDACTED] the 2hus. Basically the kind of people you would tell to go touch grass (or get a girlfriend as said in the postcard of Tubonator).  

I'm fairly certain that anyone that is comfortable enough to share such thoughts in a public space is a porn addict and would behave this way regarding other fictional characters or real-life actresses even if they had never found Touhou.

The problem with the lolicon debate is eventually both sides run out of statistics to further their confirmation bias.

This is why I never participate in these massive internet arguments. Too often you will find yourself saying "dude I'm on your side but please stop being such an idiot". I am reminded of an anecdote; two men in Japan are on a bus (one is a foreign anthropologist conducting interviews for a research paper and the other is going to a convention -- I don't recall if he's just an attendee or part of the management) discussing visual novels which have loli characters as romance options. Another man on the bus overhears their conversation and visibly becomes a little bit agitated. Does he walk over to them and start to explain to them how horrible they are as people or loudly yell so that everyone can hear about how disgusting these two are (things that too often happen online)? No, he just says to himself "For the sake of Japan's future, I hope this bus crashes." and leaves it at that. Sometimes I wish more people could stop being self-righteous no matter what side they're on and at the very least banter properly if a civil discussion isn't on the table.

 

[Darksymphony777]

I have never heard of Vee. Could you please give me some details about him?

Romanian tvee is a commentary YouTuber from Romania. 

https://youtu.be/P14P5-YTvlQ

This is the video I know of him about

And on the way, we ended up discussing the difference between porn and art. Here is an extract on how it went:

Funny how most of this conversation about hentai being called art stemmed from artist ZONE stating that hentai is art as his character zone-tan became the mascot of hentai as a whole to the point where she's actually referenced in other properties like skullgirls

View attachment 2654

 

[CountVonNumenor]

For Gelbooru, if you account for questionable posts as well, it's bumped up to around 5%. As for R34, the data I have is based on rule34.xxx, which has no "sort by popularity" option for tags. Taking a look at R34 Paheal, it does indeed show that Touhou is the second most popular tag in terms of intellectual property, only lagging behind My Little Pony. Despite this, however, it still only accounts for around 2% of posts, which goes to show how wide of a net Rule34 really casts. Given this, I'd say it's safe to assume that even on the other website it's also among the biggest tags despite the low share.

As for Pixiv, I personally have no clue. It probably comes down to the fact that until recently, you couldn't search for tags in english on that website, and people would just commonly underestimate how much of an absolute colossus Pixiv actually is (as of 2020 it was 100 million submissions and counting, so currently it's entirely possible that Pixiv holds the equivalent of 20 Danboorus, likely much more if you count the fact a single submission can hold several images, sometimes dozens per submission).

Fascinating stuff. Even at 5% of all the stuff on a platform being Touhou, that is still quite a large percentage knowing how many anime, games, manga and other franchises and fandoms are there. 

I'm fairly certain that anyone that is comfortable enough to share such thoughts in a public space is a porn addict and would behave this way regarding other fictional characters or real-life actresses even if they had never found Touhou.

Definitely. Sometimes, people are joking when they see Yuuka art and write that they want to be stepped on by her or make jokes about the "delicious buns/boobs of Sanae" (literally, Sanae is very much known in fandom as "Reimu but with boobs", "Reimu but fanservice material" or "doujin fam" - my opening post goes into possible explanations for why some of the 2hus are more popular in terms of questionable and explicit material) but in other situation I wonder how much of it is a joke, and how much is legit people getting horny over a JPEG. And I feel the horny has intensified quite a bit this year (and perhaps since last year because Lost Word/gacha is now a thing associated with the name of Touhou), especially since January and the rise of this meme format. I am also guilty of watching the OG post, and thought it will be just a meme staying associated with one channel, and which would die quickly. However, I was not expecting it to become so widespread, and still be alive after 5 months on so many channels. And this was such a thing in the western fandom that it made me for a while question the quality of the western fandom (and if overall we are not just a bunch of horny guys salivating after some art made in Japan). 

The original "I want mommy/I want milk" meme as created by XE3G weeb:




Just as I've watched that video. I like his way of presenting things, and indeed does make use of Romanian anecdotes. In the case of the video you provided a link for, I  actually recognized the story about the peasant and boyar he was talking about, as i think it was the story related to Moș Ion Roată, a Moldavian peasant from the middle of the 19th century, and which was illustrated by Romanian literature as an example of the peasantry of the era in contact with the changing times. But yeah Romanian TVee seems quite like a nice guy.  

 

[Turbonator]

write that they want to be stepped on by her

Related:

View attachment 2656

 

[Darksymphony777]

Related:

View attachment 2656

Tom and Jerry, you mean remilia and clownpiece.

View attachment 2657

 

[SasaMisa]

D'ah, this topic is going way too deep into things for my tastes and I've just got better things to do than waste time discussing what amounts to little more than fap material at the end of the day. Porn has always existed and will continue to exist: it's only its form that changes with time. For my part, it's not difficult at all to understand why people prefer anime/manga characters to the real thing, especially in Japan, where it is taken quite a bit more seriously (adult manga/dojinshi are the epitome of erotica as far as I'm concerned, always have been). I mean, to cite an example, look at the difference between those cute meganekko/iinchou portrayals and Western bespectacled feminists... my god, the contrast couldn't be any more striking. (>_&lt

Incidentally, I will state that I've never been a fan of live-action porn; always found it obvious and vulgar, much like real women in general. Japanese AV is a little better, but still not a patch on the incredibly attractive characters these artists all create, including the more serious Western ones now (Rule34 used to be seen as little more than a joke by many). In addition, the various governmental/non-governmental organisations of the world have finally woken up to the obvious fact that the style of anime is clearly, overtly sexual, even when it's not trying to be that way at all. It's what you get when you combine the cuteness of Disney with an incredibly idealised version of the female form. I seem to recall someone saying this about Tenchi Muyo in the past, in that he wasn't sure whether he should be masturbating to it or not. (^_^

Well, I'll leave it there anyway, though to lighten the mood somewhat, I'd just like to say that I'd be able to bribe Eiki with several big-titted images of Komachi, so I'll probably be fine in the afterlife, if there is one of course. (^u^)

 

[Turbonator]

I'd be able to bribe Eiki with several bit-titted images of Komachi

Man if it was that easy.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Porn has always existed and will continue to exist: it's only its form that changes with time. For my part, it's not difficult at all to understand why people prefer anime/manga characters to the real thing, especially in Japan, where it is taken quite a bit more seriously (adult manga/dojinshi are the epitome of erotica as far as I'm concerned, always have been).

Hello again. I would like to reinforce my point one more time: I have nothing against the existence of such materials. I was more interested about their appeal and what makes people enjoy them so much. Also everyone has different tastes, which is perfectly fine. 

Incidentally, I will state that I've never been a fan of live-action porn; always found it obvious and vulgar, much like real women in general.

This is something I can agree with. It feels quite devoid of soul, mass produced and gross. It is also apparently accused of creating a bad/fictional/idealized image around how a male/female body should look like, as well as a poor understanding of relations and sexuality. I cannot confirm it though, as I try to stay as far as I can from it. But apparently it does create some problems in society. Long ago, in Romania was a bit of talk about how you are having a problem in Britain with an increasing amount of underage people being exposed to live-action porn, which combined with the lack of proper sex education lead to problems. Is this true, or some sort of fake news that came from Britain through shady sources (I do remember there was a British show airing every Saturday evening here in which some lady was advocating for sex education or something). 

(Rule34 used to be seen as little more than a joke by many)

Wait, you want to say that website and the whole idea of "Rule 34" in itself started as a joke? I know the rule itself came from an old joke on 4chan, but I did not know it extended to the creation of the website itself. Also, when did hentai the way we know it nowadays start making its appearance? We have already talked about the old Japanese erotic art, but the modern thing is quite intriguing as well. Also, is that traditional sort of art still being produced nowadays?

In addition, the various governmental/non-governmental organisations of the world have finally woken up to the obvious fact that the style of anime is clearly, overtly sexual, even when it's not trying to be that way at all. It's what you get when you combine the cuteness of Disney with an incredibly idealised version of the female form. I seem to recall someone saying this about Tenchi Muyo in the past, in that he wasn't sure whether he should be masturbating to it or not. (^_^

I am not very sure about what you intended to say here. Could you please elaborate a bit more? It really caught my attention, but I did not fully understand. You say that governments/NGOs realized the overtly sexual style of anime illustrations as a whole? I mean, it is not like Japan took a lot of American influence in terms of animation. Maybe you can correct me, but from what I heard the Japanese were passionate about American cartoon since the interwar years, particularly stuff like Betty Boop or Disney animations. And after the war, the idea of comics was imported from the US as the Japanese were trying to copy the American lifestyle as much as they could. But again, maybe I am wrong again and what I remember is poor. But indeed, anime seems to be blamed for promoting an idealized version of the female form (which I think was the reason that attracted me into trying the style for my drawing - and I have been stuck into that for almost 2 years now despite questioning myself what I actually want to do - see the "How to draw" thread I started not loong ago in pursuit of a new artistic direction). 

I only really have one more thing to add to that Thirst thread, but I'll let you all respond first. Regardless, I don't think you're ever going to get a definitive answer to your initial question because there really isn't one. (^_~)

 Well, it looks like a change in direction would not be a bad thing. So we have the following questions:

1. Why is Touhou so prolific when it comes to R18 materials? - already answered in the comments above (absolute freedom of expression given to the artists)
   
2. Now, for the second question, hopefully better formulated this time: Why is R18 art so appealing? What is the thing that makes people like seeing their favorite characters in compromising poses, or having intercourse with a strange, faceless man? The faceless man is usually one of those things I found freaky. Why? Because one explanation for why people are usually faceless in such images/manga in the following: in order to make self-inserting possible. Basically, the idea is for you to be able to imagine yourself being the one making love with your favorite character. I can accept wholesome, consensual acts being depicted (I don't care if it's straight or yuri as long as there is some common sense), but at least please give those men some faces. 
   

Spoiler

Also personally, I am very much against anything depicting rape, fetishes or other kinds of stuff that might be a little too much. I don't want to read a story about Koishi raping Sanae in the middle of the Human Village in full daylight (yes, this is an actual plot) for example. Or about an army of faceless men getting all to a 2hu girl at the same time. Nor having one of the girls looking like a freaking 8-10 years old, bein being taken on by some old looking bastard. or very much some sort of awful anatomy with body parts that do not make any (common) sense in terms of proportions. It is just not my cup of team.

Sorry for the final part and my very rough language (that is what spoiler is for). I really felt like I had to say it, just to mark a bit the line between what I personally find acceptable and what isn't. And it does not only apply to Touhou, but to any sort of media. Also sorry for going into another million tangents. I just like talking, and when I start talking about something, you can barely stop me. 

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Well, I'll leave it there anyway, though to lighten the mood somewhat, I'd just like to say that I'd be able to bribe Eiki with several big-titted images of Komachi, so I'll probably be fine in the afterlife, if there is one of course. (^u^)

Oh, also good luck with this part. I wonder how acceptant would Eiki be of such a gift. Although I might imagine she would get into another lecture in regards to morals and whatnot. As for Komachi, I guess she would have some explanations to offer to her boss for how did she end up getting photos taken of her in such a, possibly compromising, pose for the lady shinigami herself. Now, if this discussion would take place publicly or in private, it remains to be seen (and most likely at the will of any artist wishing to illustrate such a scenario). ?

 

[-ScarletScythe- ✠ ✠]

Because 99% of fans get into it through the porn made of the series, the very sad truth

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Because 99% of fans get into it through the porn made of the series, the very sad truth

Interesting thought. However, what is the proof for it? I mean I have personally seen it too in more or less ironic tones being said, but I never really took it seriously. It is basically this situation (cue to An Incorrect Summary of Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance)


My_source_is_that_I_made_it_the_F_up.mp4



Still, interesting point. Alo, despite this coming from Reddit (and a 9 years old thread to add to it), what this person said is not to be ignored:

Spoiler

You know, as much as I'm not against erotic content, I think that's a good idea.

I love the doujin industry. But there's a bit much porn. And of course, I think it's fine enough for Touhou erotic stuff to exist. But there's plenty of it, and I find one of the most fascinating things about Touhou is how many great stories people carve and the other fanworks people create that aren't erotic at all.

There's so much porn in the doujin industry that many people associate the term "doujin" with porn. When there's so much great creative stuff that isn't pornographic at all. It's also kinda alienating how creepy and messed up a lot of the doujinshi is out there. If I like a character, I don't want to see them get raped, rape is super disturbing. And yet a lot of the porn out there is rape themed.

You can be moe without being sexualized. One of the great things I find about Touhou is that it is a great franchise and can sell on things like gameplay and moe without any sexualization in the official games. ZUN doesn't sell his games on fanservice. And his use of moe is probably a personal artistic decision. It's a part of his characters, their personalities, and the great stories he has crafted, and they're better because of it.

Feminism is a big controversial subject in the video game industry today. People like Anita Sarkeesian are a big subject of hate. And some people who aren't feminists and don't like feminism at all, but hate Japanese video games will use that as an excuse to hate moe.

Touhou is probably one of the most gender forward video game franchises in the industry. The games pass the Bechdel test in spades. The characters are diverse and well characterized. They are put as characters before sexualization. And it is their stories and personalities that matter first and foremost. And their creator, ZUN, actively seems to discourage them being turned into mere sex objects.

In this case, moe is actively improving the representation of women.

Again, I don't mind the occasional sexualization. But I'm happy that the Touhou characters are fascinating, without being reduced to a bunch of sex objects. And without being reduced to a bunch of porn characters which only serve to be sexualized. There's porn, but a lot of the fan-material out there is giving them interesting personalities and adventures.

Touhou of course has people who admire its characters in a sexual light. And that's okay. But first and foremost, Touhou is an interesting world with interesting characters from games with good gameplay. And that's what good about Touhou. Is that you can get lost in the universe. That, after a while of being acquainted with the franchise and the fandom, you begin to feel like you know the characters or you live in the world. That's a sign of good lore and good characterization, not sexualization.

(original thread: Help me understand ZUN's philosophy https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou/comments/1rhif8/help_me_to_understand_zuns_philosophy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Back in the days when pirate websites like Moriya Shrine were still seen as justified, ZUN was not even planning to port his games to Steam yet as he was not caring about anything outside Japan, and the first fan-made anime were getting into a bit of trouble with the use of professional voice acting

Meanwhile, there is also this opinion, much more recent, coming from Danbooru (as I was talking about that website in a recent discussion), in the context of a Touhou image that sparked much controversy:

Spoiler

User 1: Just proves how low Danbooru has fallen to allow this kind of thing to be uploaded and making people pay for certain images. This fall from grace is just pitiful to watch

User 2: (User in reply):  This image is public, nobody needs to pay to see it. The real joke here is people being so butthurt that this is one of the lowest scored images on site now, despite having perfectly average artstyle. You can't tell me that this is any worse than any of the thousands of coomerbait copypasted art with laughable anatomy that we get each month. [gonna cut this part out, as it is a slight political tangent about Trump, Taiwan and so]

Then, there is this discussion based on a story card from Touhou LostWord which for some reason caught up on Twitter, then was discussed again on Reddit (sometimes, I really need to use any source if it is for research and studying human behaviour): 

Spoiler

This is the story card called "Patron Sain of Learning"

And this is how some people reacted when it was shown up and given as a Christmas gift during the ongoing event:

Alright, now with the actual opinions expressed about the card itself, art and reception:

User 1: I don't know if it's the reason in this particular case but I've seen a lot of people on Twitter who genuinely hate over-sexualisation of Touhou characters, which is really weird to me considering that a massive proportion of fanworks do over-sexualise the characters and that's a pretty big part of why the series is as big as it is (which is ironic considering the art ZUN draws). This game literally wouldn't exist if hordes of degenerates didn't draw mountains of Touhou porn over the last 20 years, increasing attention to the series, and I applaud their service.

User 2 (reply): It’s not that hard to understand why a large portion of fans would hate over-sexualization when you consider that almost all the cannon material is void of sexualization. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that promotional Yuugi art by Alphes.

User 3 (reply to User 1): This is quite an overstatement, imo. How many of those people who stumbled across porn as their exclusive first experience of touhou actually ended up supporting the game monetarily? How many people exist that actually had the porn as their first experience in the first place? How many people go spend money on non-porn content due to seeing porn online in general? Considering how many people have seen Bad Apple/U.N. Owen was her and other Touhou related music/video content (especially being featured in a lot of Nico Nico Douga videos), I sincerely find it hard to believe that a majority of consumers came from porn and not the variety of other content on many other websites nor do I believe the porn is high on the list of defining features that contribute towards purchase decisions that result in money that goes towards the game's development (I doubt ZUN sees any of the money from doujin/porn producers and people aren't buying the game for ZUN's attractive art). All of that is to say that the game series has far more qualities to it that far outweigh the porn aspect as far as its success. Saying the touhou series wouldn't exist without porn is like saying that every game and anime wouldn't exist without porn. It's absurdity.

User 4 (reply to User 3): I am personally a degenerate so I whole-heartedly welcome the lewding, but I could see how somebody could dislike the over-sexualization. While l00ds have definitely helped the community grow, I wouldn't go so far as to say that they are a crucial part of the fandom. The mainline games as well as the SFW creative freedom that ZUN promotes is what has shaped the community by and large, and I think those alone could have definitely kept the fandom alive and well, if smaller. Somebody who loves the mainline games and/or characters might not like the franchise getting 'degraded' into just sexy anime women.

User 5 (reply): This, for the most part. It seems to happen with basically every gacha game because the majority of the playerbase is, to put it bluntly, desperately horny. It stands out more here because unlike, say, Fate (which has characters like Nero) and Fire Emblem (ditto Tharja), Touhou has never been a "sexy" series. Hell, it's never even lived in the same town. I have a sex drive as functional as anyone else's and I enjoy a nice rack, but I also realize that I can find more porn on the internet, for free, than I could ever consume in my lifetime, so it doesn't need to be part of my gaming as well. Nobody likes a coomer who can't enjoy anything they can't get off to, and I have a lot of respect for ZUN keeping lewd content decisively out of his games. Seeing it here just feels crass.

At least for now, I am not here to express my opinion on the matter. The materials presented are offered for starting a discussion, and anyone can take whatever they want out of it (after all, we have the right to expressing our opinion). Just let the info sink in...

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Continuing this thread in parallel with the newly one about modern Japanese art style and artistic choices. 

 

[SasaMisa]

Heh, ScarletScythe's not wrong there, you know, as I did freely admit when I initially joined this forum that my first real exposure to Touhou Project was indeed a Reisen dojinshi called Bousou-Get! (^w^)

Anyway, you make some very interesting points, CVN, which I'll address in the newer thread now. For this one here, I'll just say that, at the end of the day, I don't believe this is something you are ever going to reason out, not until you experience it yourself. I mean, I had a counsellor in the past who tried to apply his fancy college-course logic to me and my whacky interests and we went in utter circles for almost 9 months in total... and it was only supposed to be for 6. I ultimately cancelled the sessons because we simply weren't getting anywhere. (-_-)

It's the old iceberg phenomenon basically, as in only seeing 1/8 of what Japanese culture is really all about. Helen McCarthy went over this when asked about H material and she said what I always do: it's a cultural thing and you are not going to understand it. The Japanese themselves struggle with comprehending how people can be hikikomori, or marry characters like Nene and Miku, or walk around in public with an anime dakimakura instead of a real girlfriend. Nijicon really is inexplicable to the average person, making me recall what Angelica once said in Rugrats, "If you have to ask, you'll never know." I don't think there's much else I can say on the subject really. (^_^)

--------------------

Now come on guys, I was kidding about Eiki as well - "Danzai!" and all that. For sure, we all understand these characters were horrific abominations originally in common fokelore, with her being akin to the Three Fates of Greek mythology. I mean, have you seen what a monstrosity a rokurokubi really is and would you say Sekibanki is in any way representative of that? Only the Japanese could turn something so unpalatable and frightening into, as Stevo the Human rightly pointed out, a game where lolis shoot each other in the face with lasers. (=^_^=)

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Heh, ScarletScythe's not wrong there

Huh, so that is more than just a joke? In a way I feel impressed, but at the same time a little bit disappointed. But nothing to really bother me so much. Everyone has their own reasons for enjoying this series. 

Now come on guys, I was kidding about Eiki as well - "Danzai!" and all that. For sure, we all understand these characters were horrific abominations originally in common fokelore, with her being akin to the Three Fates of Greek mythology. I mean, have you seen what a monstrosity a rokurokubi really is and would you say Sekibanki is in any way representative of that? Only the Japanese could turn something so unpalatable and frightening into, as Stevo the Human rightly pointed out, a game where lolis shoot each other in the face with lasers. (=^_^=)

Yes, I am familiar with at least a part of the cast and the original beasts of mythology that inspired them. And, if you took a look into the Nature of Gensokyo thread, I was having quite a bit of fun together with @Gou the frog in regards to mythical and cultural origins of some of the characters, while thinking of possible theories on how we ended with cute girls instead of the scary beasts of old from a lore point of view as well as what would happen if other pantheons somehow made their way to Gensokyo. 

 

[SasaMisa]

Well, to be fair, CVN, like I said last night, I think most people undoubtedly get into Touhou through the music and the fangames - I certainly did with Wandering Souls, which was an extremely impressive combination of the two for sure. Granted, some people will come in because of the artwork, and yes, even material of an adult nature, but I highly doubt it's as high as 99%, probably not even a fraction of that. (^_^)

I mean, 'Bousou-Get!' may have been the very first real Touhou inspired work I ever came in contact with, yet truth be told, beyond knowing it features Reisen & Eirin, I couldn't tell you much else about it since I've never actually read it. No, it was over 5 years after that before Estheone's game turned my head enough to get me into the series, so it just goes to show you how little influence H material really had on me back then. (^u^)

Hmm, and that thread you cite regarding the Nature of Gensokyo looks like pretty heavy going too, but I'll check it out when I have a moment. (^_~)

 

[Gou the frog]

Aye, now first all of this kind of thing is inevitable for every series and Touhou just appears to be just the perfect one. I myself haven't witness the "incident' of the people joining it from questionable material alone but not most of them I say since they are many work to be exposed to. Most of what I've seen known it from the fanworks, and maybe 50? 60% from said material. That's my point of view anyways. I believe it's somewhat in balance so, back to your topic,

Horny Fans... Yeah, seems about right with a cast this big you'd be foolish to think there aren't any said fans. So far, after reading how japan handle things in earlier posts, I got some points from it:

• Japan doesn't really care how much horny material there it and it's a hit to have those.
  
• It's vastly different from the west and have a different view opposed to it.
  
• Their very origin are quite... Erotic indeed so, the more the merrier just like those wired period when everyone joins in the boat and does.... stuff.
  
• To top it off *Religion*
  

  So, that slides? 

Well, to brought a point of my own I bring you the perspective of me, a Burmese. (I don't know how this will relate) We've never really cared about those thing but later it was all shot down to ground and the freedom of speech vanished into thin air. Odd, but seems like it's in the middle. Aye, I'll save a history lesson for a thread. 

Aye, but I do have a question why does the more 'exposed' clothed character ie. Kanako is not too lewd but the reverse happen for the tightly ones, it appears to have the same effect. (It might already mentioned in earlier thread like months ago) 

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Aye, I'll save a history lesson for a thread. 

Honestly, now I really am curious for that history less. I get to learn a bit more about Burma from someone living there 

Aye, but I do have a question why does the more 'exposed' clothed character ie. Kanako is not too lewd but the reverse happen for the tightly ones, it appears to have the same effect. (It might already mentioned in earlier thread like months ago) 

This reminds me of a similar discussion I have seen a long time ago. It is apparently something about people being interested to reveal more out of a character that s already wearing a lot of clothes instead of going for one that barely wears any. It is as as if we had some sort of desire - the more clothes there are, the greater the desire to see the person (or character) without them on. Which is some interesting line of though. My guess is that it causes curiosity in the mind of a human, looking to reveal whatever secret is hidden beneath all those clothes. It's basically like unwrapping a present if we are to thing of it as such.

And speaking of desires, here comes a new round of questions:

Why do people like so much seeing porn/erotic material done based on their favorite franchises? Like where is the charm coming from? Is it some sort of desire we have, or we merely treat is as just another object for satisfying our short-terms needs and wants? Could that desire for sex not be satisfied through other means? Like if you want some porn, why does it need to be about your favorite character(s)?

I am also asking because this sort of thing (the existence and commonality of spicy materials related to my favorite series and characters) is basically a new experience for me. My personal stance on such materials can be very much split into two stages: the BEFORE and AFTER finding out what Danbooru is. Until finding out that website, I could not really conceive the idea of going after or seeing so much explicit material related to the thing you like. One of my friends pretty much decided to get me into a "drunk watch of Star Wars R34 art", minus the "drunk" part - all I can say is that evening was a little difficult to digest.

Skipping a few months after that event, directly to when I found Touhou (so in like December 2020). Just as I drew my first Touhou fanart (seen in the Anime thread), and was asking by this friend why did I draw something with so small boobs. I told him a bit about what Touhou is, showed him a bit of official art, then he asked me what was the name of the character (I showed him an official art sprite of Yuyuko from PCB). Less than a minute later, what is the first thing he decided to show me? A R34 image of Yuyuko - my first taste of such content when it comes to Touhou. I was quite a bit shocked to see it, even if he intended it just as a joke and to get a laugh out of my innocence I still had at the time. 

Skip about a year later, and my first discovery of Danbooru. Initially, I was not even supposed to be on that website. I was using Safebooru for adding images to my collection, and remarked that by searching "Iku Nagae" I could not find anything. Thinking there was something wrong, I decided to go for other boards. Without paying too much attention, I ended up on her Danbooru page (and also realized I had to search it as "Nagae Iku"). What was the first thing that got into my face? Pretty much any kind of R18 I could imagine - from nude pose to intercourse (both straight and yuri - Tenshi included). For a while, I pretty much decided to NOPE, and stayed on Safebooru. But eventually, I ended up replacing Safebooru with Danbooru. For the past 6 months, I have only using the latter on a daily basis, so in the end I feel like I got quite desensitized to such kind of content. Therefore, my question when it came to all this research was out of curiosity, not any kind of outrage for the existence of such content. I pretty much went from "I cannot imagine this kind of content existing/I don't really want to be in contact with it or purposefully go after it" to "alright, this exists, I guess [example fitting my mentioned requirements] looks rather neat".

Probably the creation of this thread was also the effect of simply going to Twitter one day based on a Danbooru link to check out the original artist, and saw that the artist retweeted dozens of other NSFW artists who were drawing Touhou stuff (I will be honest, some of it was rather neat, in other instances I was surprised as basically I did not know there was also an NSFW version of an image I was used to), and that made me start this question of why there is so much popularity for such depictions. 

 

[SasaMisa]

Heh, slowly turning to the dark side, are we, CVN? Well, it happens to all of us sooner or later, once you get past that period of ambivalence. (^o^)

As to your question though, I can obviously only answer from my own perspective. Being a bona fide 二次コン/nijicon (someone who prefers 2D girls to 3D ones basically), I can tell you for me, it's absolutely different when it's a character you really like and care about. I believe we went into the reason why real porn often ends up being an empty and disappointing experience, simply because you have no connection whatsoever to the person on screen. Sure, you get the release, but you don't get any emotional satisfaction out of it, much like with casual flings in fact. Indeed, there is a world of difference between 'having sex' and 'making love', not that you can get so many people to admit such. (T_T)

I suspected I was this way when I first clapped eyes on Flora from Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors around my late teens, although I obviously had no idea of the Japanese concept at the time. Truth be told, I've always found real girls unremarkable, but unlike my kid brother, who recently came out and admitted that he is asexual, I do have an extremely strong preference toward the female form, just often not the girl who is attached to it. I didn't truly accept it until I tried dating an actual Japanese girl in my late 20s, quickly realising I preferred the company of fictional ones. Tried again with an English girl in my early 30s mainly just to prove a point, and I've been alone ever since, not to mention infinitely happier overall. (=^_^=)

I won't bore you with the long psychological history of why I ended up the way I did, but suffice it to say, an amoral cousin (called "Karen", funnily enough, before the word was even a thing); many bad female role models in my family; horrible girls at school, college, work, etc. undoubtedly played a large part. For sure, I am almost willing to bet that other nijicons would have a very similar tale to tell. It's also undoubtedly why I prefer much more chaste feminine characters, at least on the surface, since it's patently obvious my emotional development in regards to the opposite sex is stunted as hell. (^_^

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Heh, slowly turning to the dark side, are we, CVN? Well, it happens to all of us sooner or later, once you get past that period of ambivalence. (^o^)

Hmmm, I wonder how that happened... But yeah, I will be honest. I am not more safe or pure about this sort of stuff, but I am trying to keep it as limited as possible. But I guess it is bound to happen after a time, no mater how much yo try to hide it or deny it to yourself? Even if it is more coming out of a weird curiosity. Like that way too curious angel character from Helltaker that ended up in hell trying to maker research, but stayed there a little longer than needed. 

Also I am sorry to hear about your overall story. I think it really hurts at times when feeling alone, especially if you just wanted to hand around with someone. As I already stated, I am 20 and still alone. And I feel like it such more and more, as I start feeling increasingly alone. But I already wrote about that in another thread, as I was afraid being both a Touhou and Warhammer 40K fan makes for very much an "anti-get laid formula" at least if going by stereotypes and what kind of people are usually associated with these kind of series. I personally do not feel thirsty enough to actively seek Touhou R-rated material, otherwise you would have seen me already on places like nhentai or R34. But I am determined not to give up yet, as there has to be someone I will find one day to be the match for me. The only thing I am scared of is that most of the traits I would like to find on a girl I have found on my best friend, who is a guy. And I am very much sure I am straight...

But yeah, back on the actual topic of this thread.  

 

[adzi]

...I really should involve myself on this forum more.

About that take about lolicon artists being "closeted pedophiles" and the counter-argument that, if that was the case, similar trends would be seen everywhere else... I'd like to remind you about one thing... In Japan people make and publish lolicon art basically openly, while in most other countries, those publication would be either definitely considered CSAM (that's short for "Child Sexual Abuse Material), or would possibly be considered as such, depending on the mood of people involved. So, yeah, there is a big cultural difference there.

It just bothered me.