Why are Touhou fans seemingly so thirsty?

[ACE_DEUCE]

...I really should involve myself on this forum more.

About that take about lolicon artists being "closeted pedophiles" and the counter-argument that, if that was the case, similar trends would be seen everywhere else... I'd like to remind you about one thing... In Japan people make and publish lolicon art basically openly, while in most other countries, those publication would be either definitely considered CSAM (that's short for "Child Sexual Abuse Material), or would possibly be considered as such, depending on the mood of people involved. So, yeah, there is a big cultural difference there.

It just bothered me.

Going on the basis that laws are created based on the cultural and moral framework of a certain group, and (as I've hopefully demonstrated with my original point) that there's no reason to believe that Japan has more pedophiles than anywhere else nor that they consider acts against children to be any less immoral somehow (to imply the latter could even be construed as somewhat offensive), taking your post at face value would then mean you agree with me that it's just a cultural difference relating to what is a viable means of artistic expression? But the post seems to be written in a disagreeing tone, so I don't believe that's the case.

On the other hand, if you are denying my original point in it's entirety (even though you don't seem to be doing that either, and in any case I hope you aren't because saying that pedophilia is somehow intrinsically tied to the culture of an entire nation is a bad faith argument), it would mean that Japanese people, despite being conscientious about real child sexual abuse, still distinguish loli content as a separate moral category. Does this mean you are of the position that loli content is primarily by and for pedophiles who also fantasize about real children, but that being a pedophile isn't an issue as long as you don't actually harm any of those real children? If so, that is an opinion I can reasonably wrap my head around, but not one I entirely agree with. On the other hand if your position is that they are wrong to do so and that there is no difference in the morality of reading an issue of Comics-LO and viewing explicit material involving real-life underage individuals, then I'd have to say that such a view lacks nuance and consideration.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Alright, let's not heat up. I have a bad feeling this might end up poorly, and I really do not intend the discussion turn into a back-and-forth argument (we already have Reddit and YouTube comment section for that). Anyway, we should find a more constructive way of discuss this. Especially since my main curiosity is to learn about a kind of mentality and its effect on people. it is not like we live in a context in which people are becoming more and more thirsty and horny for stuff, at least from like 2020 onwards. First we had Lady Dimitrescu (funny how a Romanian character became a waifu), then Samsung Sam and Akha (Zone). Now, the newest frenzy is about the clown character from Ace Attorney. This whole thing is not just about Touhou, it happens with absolutely everything. However, I decided to focus it on Touhou because 1) this is a Touhou-centric community and 2) Touhou still holds the podium as series in terms of how passionate people are to create not-so-family-friendly content of the horny kind. 

 

[Ken Hisuag]

[SIZE=12pt]This is not meant as a critique of anyone’s lifestyle or moral standard; it is merely the presentation of perspective.[/SIZE]

Spoiler

[SIZE=12pt]When Moses and the newly freed Israelites left the Egyptian territories and entered into the land of Midian, they were led to the mountain Sinai to receive instruction concerning their obedience to God as a nation representative of Him. The core of all that was given them there was contained in the Ten Commandments, concise foundational principles of living that would serve as the fundamentals of their ethical structure. Among these Commandments (specifically the seventh) was the declaration, “You shall not commit adultery” (Exodus 20:14)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]As with the other Commandments, this was not a new concept to the Hebrew people, but was in fact a reminder of a declaration made much earlier in history: “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh” (Genesis 2:24). The Hebrew culture was one of heavy symbolism, and it was understood that this relationship was considered a holy institution (Matthew 19:4-6).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The clarification of this ordinance was further compounded later by Jesus in the midst of a speech concerning moral living; the focus of the speech was of evil being a matter of the heart, not merely action. “You have heard that it was said ‘You shall not commit adultery;’ but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:27-28). Again, this wasn’t a new concept, but one which had been redefined for sake of convenience, and was now being reinforced. As adultery and lust are defined as evil, anything inciting to lust is to be avoided (Matthew 5:29-30).[/SIZE]

 

[Tenkko]

 

[CountVonNumenor]

This is not meant as a critique of anyone’s lifestyle or moral standard; it is merely the presentation of perspective.

It is always interesting to bring multiple perspectives into an issue. They help creating a bigger picture of what is going on, as the truth is always somewhere at the middle. Especially in this context, where we basically have a clash of different civilizations and moral codes that do not fit each other, and those caught in between are confused about what should they do or how are they supposed to feel. 

1 hour ago, Tenkko said:

Meanwhile, this is a classic. I remember seeing it quite some time ago, but it's always good for a laugh. 

 

[ACE_DEUCE]

Especially since my main curiosity is to learn about a kind of mentality and its effect on people. it is not like we live in a context in which people are becoming more and more thirsty and horny for stuff, at least from like 2020 onwards.

This specifically, in my opinion, could just be a consequence of kids raised with completely unrestricted internet access (in the time of web 2.0) hitting puberty. I'm certainly no expert, but the laissez fare attitude of millennial parents might be catching up to them through their kids' social (and in this case sexual) proclivities that have sprung up as a result of complete engrossment in digital media from a young age; the effects of which on a developing brain psychologists are still working to understand completely.

Alright, let's not heat up. I have a bad feeling this might end up poorly, and I really do not intend the discussion turn into a back-and-forth argument (we already have Reddit and YouTube comment section for that). Anyway, we should find a more constructive way of discuss this.

I believe it's possible to disagree on something civilly. I apologize if any comment I've made had come off as passive-aggressive, as I have no intention to be hostile whatsoever.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

This specifically, in my opinion, could just be a consequence of kids raised with completely unrestricted internet access (in the time of web 2.0) hitting puberty. I'm certainly no expert, but the laissez fare attitude of millennial parents might be catching up to them through their kids' social (and in this case sexual) proclivities that have sprung up as a result of complete engrossment in digital media from a young age; the effects of which on a developing brain psychologists are still working to understand completely.

First of all, thank you for the answer. It is indeed interesting to see what the effects of Web 2.0 are and will be in the long run. I am just not aware - when was that? All I know for sure is that I stated to actually use the internet back in 2014-2015. But the liberalization of the web sure can be seen as a starting point in our discussion. I remember back in the early 2010s, when I was still in the first years of school, that my father was searching up an image of Felix the Cat (I cannot remember exactly what it was for, but as his work involves creating and editing documents, it could have been for creating some kid's birthday invitations). And during that search, one of the first results you could find on the image board, among actual images of the character was what I thought to be completely unrelated photos of nude women (might have been some porn or whatever the magazines had to throw at the time). My little 10 year old brain felt outraged to see something completely unrelated to the topic we were looking for, and I cannot remember what the answer I got from my father was. This still remains an episode I remember of as it illustrates the way I was thinking at that age (and probably what internet used to be back then). But I think my sheltering as a child (and which stil; continues to some measure) ended up screwing me quite a bit in regards to a normal evolution.

I believe it's possible to disagree on something civilly. I apologize if any comment I've made had come off as passive-aggressive, as I have no intention to be hostile whatsoever.

No problem. Also glad to see we can keep things calm, as that is always my favorite way of keeping the dialogue with someone. 

 

[adzi]

Going on the basis that laws are created based on the cultural and moral framework of a certain group, and (as I've hopefully demonstrated with my original point) that there's no reason to believe that Japan has more pedophiles than anywhere else nor that they consider acts against children to be any less immoral somehow (to imply the latter could even be construed as somewhat offensive), taking your post at face value would then mean you agree with me that it's just a cultural difference relating to what is a viable means of artistic expression? But the post seems to be written in a disagreeing tone, so I don't believe that's the case.

On the other hand, if you are denying my original point in it's entirety (even though you don't seem to be doing that either, and in any case I hope you aren't because saying that pedophilia is somehow intrinsically tied to the culture of an entire nation is a bad faith argument), it would mean that Japanese people, despite being conscientious about real child sexual abuse, still distinguish loli content as a separate moral category. Does this mean you are of the position that loli content is primarily by and for pedophiles who also fantasize about real children, but that being a pedophile isn't an issue as long as you don't actually harm any of those real children? If so, that is an opinion I can reasonably wrap my head around, but not one I entirely agree with. On the other hand if your position is that they are wrong to do so and that there is no difference in the morality of reading an issue of Comics-LO and viewing explicit material involving real-life underage individuals, then I'd have to say that such a view lacks nuance and consideration.

1. I actually agree with the first point.

2. About the less comfortable subject... I think that, if there was literally no such thing like pedophilia, then there would be no reason for anyone to even think about making art depicting children sexually... so I'd say that, while I can't be sure that actual pedophiles truly are the majority of lolicon fans/creators/consumers, I literally cannot not assume that they are some sizeable part of it. But I do not have issue with them reading that stuff, frankly. Sure, Western people might be in a position to see it as a problem, even wondering why and how Japanese people aren't literally burning shops selling lolicon content down, and lynching - or jailing in horrific conditions - people caught with it... but if it was really causing problems, I think Japanese people would've already noticed it and made regulations accordingly. Gravure idol bullshit needs to end tho.

I'm not sure if delving into the nature of pedophilia is within the bounds and scope of this discussion though...

On 6/30/2022 at 5:11 PM, Tenkko said:

Beautiful.

Pointing out that Japanese culture is just more comfortable with depictions of sexuality in general, because of differences reaching even to religion, is also a good point.

And now, indeed, we got a culture massively sexually liberated (at least compared to what was 70 years ago), although still with some remnants of old prudery, with easy digital access to almost anything, plus globalisation, meaning that Japan's point of view is more available than ever.

For anyone wanting people to not be constantly thirsty fans of something... you have to isolate Japan XDDDD

 

[ACE_DEUCE]

1. I actually agree with the first point.

[...]

I do not have issue with them reading that stuff, frankly.

I see, that is an entirely reasonable position to take. I agree that there's no definitive way to gauge what exactly goes on in people's heads, and I am glad you are able to approach this logically even if our opinions may differ a little bit.

I am just not aware - when was that?

Well, doing some math, it would probably be the kids born somewhere between 2006-2008. Web 2.0 had existed since roughly 2004, but it wasn't until a later that the online services which parents would use to distract kids (such as video streaming) became widely used. Just give the sucker an iPad and you're good to go for several hours. And mind you, these guys were probably already in their middle developmental stages when they were given unmonitored internet access (I shudder to think what might become of the children today who are growing up with Youtube Kids, but that's an entirely different discussion).

I believe one study concluded that in many western countries, the average first exposure to pornography for modern generations happened around the age of eleven, mostly on the internet. I'm no psychologist, but I also don't believe I need to be one to surmise that such a thing has the potential to warp someone's sexual development.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

I believe one study concluded that in many western countries, the average first exposure to pornography for modern generations happened around the age of eleven, mostly on the internet. I'm no psychologist, but I also don't believe I need to be one to surmise that such a thing has the potential to warp someone's sexual development.

This part reminds me quite a lot of something I was saying earlier in this thread, about some...educational program from the UK that used to air in Romania in the past decade every Saturday evening in regards to how important it is for the UK to introduce sex education in schools due to how much the perception of young folk is getting warped by more and more early exposure to pornography:

Spoiler

This is something I can agree with. It feels quite devoid of soul, mass produced and gross. It is also apparently accused of creating a bad/fictional/idealized image around how a male/female body should look like, as well as a poor understanding of relations and sexuality. I cannot confirm it though, as I try to stay as far as I can from it. But apparently it does create some problems in society. Long ago, in Romania was a bit of talk about how you are having a problem in Britain with an increasing amount of underage people being exposed to live-action porn, which combined with the lack of proper sex education lead to problems. Is this true, or some sort of fake news that came from Britain through shady sources (I do remember there was a British show airing every Saturday evening here in which some lady was advocating for sex education or something). 

 

[CountVonNumenor]

...I really should involve myself on this forum more.

Definitely. Also welcome to the thread. We have cookies here (or we can bring them) and buddies to talk to. 

 

[CountVonNumenor]

So... I decided to port a condensed version of this discussion to r/touhou. As anyone might thing, it went just as well as you would imagine. From some saying the topic is quite relevant to...everything else. 8ronically, still pretty much the best thread I have ever written not just on that subreddit, but also on that god-forsaken platform. 

 

[Paracausality]

Because that's just human nature, look at how many crimes and controversies centered around sexual stuff happen on a daily basis, the saying "If it exists, there is porn of it." is not only a meme, but also astonishingly accurate, and when you give internet peeps access to a massive female cast for reference for material...

Luckily my favorite Touhou character, namely Sariel will never be a victim of this degenerate antics, and that's all that matters to me :)

 

[adzi]

Because that's just human nature, look at how many crimes and controversies centered around sexual stuff happen on a daily basis, the saying "If it exists, there is porn of it." is not only a meme, but also astonishingly accurate, and when you give internet peeps access to a massive female cast for reference for material...

Luckily my favorite Touhou character, namely Sariel will never be a victim of this degenerate antics, and that's all that matters to me :)

One quick dive on Danbooru later...

Sariel has total of 326 arts featuring her... and maybe 3 or more NSFW and several that could be considered otherwise "spicy". Out of 326.

Sheesh, your waifu is niche as heck. XD

 

[Paracausality]

One quick dive on Danbooru later...

Sariel has total of 326 arts featuring her... and maybe 3 or more NSFW and several that could be considered otherwise "spicy". Out of 326.

Sheesh, your waifu is niche as heck. XD

Heck yeah! 

We actually don't even know what gender Sariel is, for all we know it might not have a biological gender at all, and thus is completely impossible to lewd >:). 

 

[CountVonNumenor]

This info coming from the comments of the big Reddit thread might flip some of the data we were aware of

It is interesting to see that despite its reputation, Touhou apparently does not have so much content of the kind within its own tag, while other series go close to 50% of their fan-made cotent be NSFW.

Also, please let's get things straight, once and for all. I am not condemning the creation of any sort of R18 materials, since I am perfectly fine with some of them. 


Spoiler





"No anon, your waifu doesn't love you or as you go out with her,  or go into any sort of romantic confession to a complete foreigner.  No anon,  your waifu will not allow or want you touch her in inappropriate places.  No anon,  your waifu will not beg you have sex with her" 

I think this ending paragraph sums up what I feel about the general horniness of Internet users rather well to be honest. 

 

[CountVonNumenor]

and thus is completely impossible to lewd

Never say that. Usually, these are the final words before someone is about to be wrong. Still hope you may be right though. R34 in itself has the following form: "if it exists, there will be porn of it, no exception", and R35 continues: "if there is no porn of it, it shall be done". 

 

[CountVonNumenor]

I was not expecting to see this thread resurge, but uts nice to see some of my older posts alive again

 

[Andrew Whiteingale 1998]

why are we craving such kind of content so much?

"we"

oy vey

View attachment 5643

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Honestly, I feel in the "I no longer care" phase of things, as it's been about a year since I burnt most bridges with watching art online, outside small trips for specific topics and with content blocking options on. Is this just... the acceptance phase?

 

[hakureifanatic]

I have spent so much time with white people online and I still do not "get" why are they so repulsed by cunny arts. Japanese used to hate loli contents when someone who liked loli committed a rape-murder. Otaku was associated with child molester and moe art was flowed upon by public due to media exposure.
That was decades ago and now they are fine with whatever the things they do in underground place.
Japanese won't know why do you dislike loli contents at first place, they'll just be confused because drawing 2D materials is all they're doing,
There is nothing to get mad about unless you are too delusional to differenciate reality and 2D, or you're trying to make a move despite simply not used to japanese otaku culture enough.

I do see people only caring about hentai and I wouldn't call them a "touhou fans". Coomers are annoying people who should not be relevant at all.
In japanese futaba channel's touhou board, they also frequently posts porn art, but at same time they talks about everything else about touhou, these are moderated place where you can have a deep discussion with 30+ years old fans.