Why are Touhou fans seemingly so thirsty?

[CountVonNumenor]

Basically a continuation to this thread, but from a different angle. Shifting the focus from official material to fanon material. 

This started as a simple question, but now I am slowly losing the flare to write it. However, I will try end it with whatever I can still salvage out of my mind. So, let's start. Why are Touhou fans so horny? Looking online, old discussions have always placed Touhou as number #2 or #3 online in terms of the amount of questionable or explicit content. And a good chunk of it seems to be coming from Japan alone. The brief discussion with SasaMisa and Turbonator in general chat served a warmup for what will be going on here. 

As i was saying. This whole idea to question bugged me since a few days ago. A simple walk through Twitter took me down a whole rabbit whole of questionable and explicit content based on a single artist's retweets. Basically, from a single person, you could end up creating an entire network of artists, most of them from JP. Before I am fully losing coherence, I will just expose my points as a series of ideas:

• I guess "porn/sex sells" like the saying has always been - I was told by a friend I would be extremely surprised how much an artist can win out of two things: porn/hentai and furry art
  

• why is there so much questionable and explicit material about child-looking characters? (not just in Touhou, but as a question in general) - I am sorry to put it so bluntly, but if Danbooru for example was to add a couple new tags, those two would be "child porn" and "fetish"
  

• why are we craving such kind of content so much? what is the appeal to such content?
  

• why is this so much of a Japan associated thing? At least from my perspective as a European, that sort of thing is utterly bizarre. If a convention or any sort of event was taking place here, with public of all ages, selling smut of any kind would have turned into a public outrage. However, when it comes to stuff like Comiket et al, it seems lie you can very easily sell such content, together with the whole concept of having doujins fully dedicated to just drawing hentai of that subject
  

• out of any franchise online, how did Touhou gain so much popularity in terms of such content? is it just because of the almost total freedom ZUN has given in terms of fan materials?
  

• did you ever had that kind of weird moment and sensation when discovering a piece of fanart you like and and is perfectly SFW actually has am NSFW version too? it feels very odd if you ask me, especially if you were only used to the safe one, and it was something you really liked
  

• despite not having a clear source for the claim Touhou is in top 3 when it comes to the amount of smut material dedicated to any franchise, i do have a source for something else - apparently, Touhou fan art is the one the gave birth to "Ahegaokin" (and more or less the meme too) through a Patchouli image; at least that is what Know Your Meme says
  

Spoiler

Apparently the OG Ahegao

• going from memes to stats, I have alt least two sources - one for which I need to credit @Tenkko and one I found by chance; it comes in regards to the the amount of Touhou fan content that goes into the unsafe area on both Pixiv and the more infamous R34 (wish we also had a Danbooru/Gelbooru stat, as you could find a lot more there too)
  

(possibly severely outdated) R34 stats from last year in regards to Touhou content (no PC-98 stats though)

Spoiler

DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT PROMOTE PORN OF ANY CHARACTERS THAT HAVE APPEARANCES OF SMALL GIRLS, this is just the numbers of lewded post that I have researched on rule34 . xxx

Rule 34 (as of June - 2021)

GAMES

Main Characters

• Reimu: 4428
  
• Marisa: 2503
   
  

6/EoSD

• Rumia: 901
  
• Daiyousei: 459
  
• Cirno: 876
  
• Meiling: 1435
  
• Koakuma: 1142
  
• Patchouli: 3456
  
• Sakuya: 3843
  
• Remilia: 2247
  
• Flandre: 2020
   
  

7/PCB

• Letty: 253
  
• Chen: 450
  
• Alice: 2655
  
• Lily: 140
  
• Lyrica: 95
  
• Lunasa: 322
  
• Merlin: 180
  
• Youmu: 2223
  
• Yuyuko: 1718
  
• Ran: 1379
  
• Yukari: 2742
   
  

7.5/IaMP

• Suika: 785
   
  

8/IN

• Wriggle: 387
  
• Mystia: 554
  
• Keine: 1022
  
• Tewi: 683
  
• Udongein: 3046
  
• Eirin: 1061
  
• Kaguya: 652
  
• Mokou: 902
   
  

9/PoFV

• Medicine: 40
  
• Yuuka: 1829
  
• Komachi: 761
  
• Shiki Eiki: 597
   
  

10/MoF

• Shizuha: 173
  
• Minoriko: 227
  
• Hina: 564
  
• Nitori: 1051
  
• Momiji: 2183
  
• Aya: 2363
  
• Sanae: 4046
  
• Kanako: 703
  
• Suwako: 990
   
  

10.5/SWR

• Iku: 625
  
• Tenshi: 1227
   
  

11/SA

• Kisume: 66
  
• Yamame: 342
  
• Parsee: 657
  
• Yuugi: 913
  
• Satori: 1879
  
• Orin: 1095
  
• Okuu: 1368
  
• Koishi: 1419
   
  

12/UFO

• Nazrin: 665
  
• Kogasa: 761
  
• Ichirin: 118
  
• UNZAN:9
  
• Murasa: 279
  
• Shou: 342
  
• Byakuren: 1158
  
• Nue: 790
   
  

12.5/DS

• Hatate: 583
   
  

12.8/FW

• Luna: 178
  
• Star: 217
  
• Sunny: 164
   
  

13/TD

• Kyouko: 272
  
• Yoshika: 234
  
• Seiga: 366
  
• Tojiko: 166
  
• Futo: 348
  
• Miko: 399
  
• Mamizou: 209
   
  

13.5/HM

• Kokoro: 567
   
  

14/DDC

• Wakasagihime: 112
  
• Sekibanki: 185
  
• Kagerou: 494
  
• Benben: 40
  
• Yatsuhashi: 36
  
• Seija: 142
  
• Shinmyoumaru: 71
  
• Raiko: 71
   
  

14.5/ULiL

• Sumireko: 86
   
  

15/LoLK

• Seiran: 69 (guys, please don't...)
  
• Ringo: 48
  
• Doremy: 97
  
• Sagume: 127
  
• CLOWNPIECE: 289
  
• Junko: 178
  
• Hecatia: 111
   
  

15.5/AoCF

• Jo'on: 45
  
• Shion: 72
   
  

16/HSiFS

• Eternity: 5
  
• Nemuno: 22
  
• Aunn: 30
  
• Narumi: 16
  
• Mai: 25
  
• Satono: 29
  
• Okina: 29
  
• OKINA_BUT_STANDING_UP:_probably 29
   
  

17/WBaWC

• Eika: 1 (GOOD)
  
• Urumi: 93
  
• Kutaka: 20
  
• Yachie: 45
  
• Mayumi: 27
  
• Keiki: 42
  
• Saki: 24
   
  

18/UM

• Mike: 23
  
• Takane: 9
  
• Sannyo: 5
  
• Misumaru: 3
  
• Tsukasa: 34
  
• Megumu: 12
  
• Chimata: 2
  
• Momoyo: 27
  

PRINT WORKS

• A/CoLA
  
• Rinnosuke: 171
   
  

B/SSiB (Lunarians stories)

• Reisen(SSiB): 43
  
• Toyohime: 60
  
• Yorihime: 115
   
  

C/WaHH

• Kasen: 905
   
  

D/FS

• Kosuzu: 124
   
  

E/PMiSS

• Akyuu: 179
  

F/LE

• Miyoi: 6
  

CDs

• Maribel: 127
  
• Renko: 180
  

NOTE: It seems like the final bosses weren't as popular as other earlier bosses in the same game (except for 12 because Byakuren is Byakuren). Also I know other sites exist but I don't want to make my research harder

(And the thread itself https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou/comments/px788q/statistic_about_the_number_of_rule_34_posts_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

Also the Pixiv stats as offered by Tenkko + a few comments on my side

Spoiler

Notice the large amounts of fairy content 

As for my comments on the issue. By noticing a few of the stats in that chart:

• Sanae - 13.7%
  
• Eirin - 13%
  
• Byakuren - 12.6%
  
• Reisen Udongein Inaba - 12%
  
• Ran Yakumo -11.8%
  
• Yorihime & Toyohime - 11.6% (each)
  
• Patchouli - 11.3%
  
• Yuugi - 10.5%
  
• Yukari - 10.15%
  
• Sakuya - 10.1%
  
• Aya - 10%
  
• Iku - 9.87%
  
• Raiko - 9.85%
  
• Keine - 9.81%
  
• Yuuka - 9.61%
  

Now time for the observations. Some of these numbers seem to be rather obvious (I will be mostly try to refer to just the fanservice kind of having undressed characters, and try stay as far as possible from anything involving intercourse unless it becomes relevant):
 

• Sanae did get some sort of "fanservice" reputation in the fandom, and I do not understand the reason why. Many people I ask refer to her as "Reimu, but fanservice", "Reimu, but with boobs" or simply as "doujin fam". Did this come to be just because of one doujin in which Sanae is called a "good girl"? Even the wiki mentions that doujin when referring to her fanon material. 
  
• I am not very sure how Eirin got so high on her spot, even if it is just percentage-wise. Maybe he fact she might be as old as the world and her more womanly look have been a factor to ensure people they will not just end up drawing CP? (it is not like like Eirin is usually placed in the "old ladies club" of Gensokyo)
  
• Byakuren is interesting. I can imagine that her biker outfit from the fighters was a boost to this, but I am not sure how far you can actually go from that towards proper R-18 material.
  
• Reisen is probably another one of the more (in)famous cases. I know she is a bunny girl and all, therefore fanservice and smut fuel. An for further reference, I even did get a bit into the famous "Drunkards in Eintei" doujin, from where we got the famous "I'm just a useless little bunny, only good for my sex appeal", in order to see what gave people the decision to feature her so much in smut. It is funny how one simple line in a doujin just encouraged the tendency of having Reisen featured in H-doujins and art. 
   
  

Spoiler

Fanon at its finest, I guess. And so, the fate of a bunny among fans was sealed...

• About Ran Yakumo, I am not very sure what to say. Probably association with Kitsune usually shaping as attractive women? Also the fanon meme of the "suppatenko" (exhibitionist Ran)  or something...
  
• Yorihime & Toyohime -  I am honestly amazed they even get H-material, given how unpopular they are in the fandom. Maybe it is more about revenge stuff (not gonna mention the r-word) and that 1% made out of Fusu art (gonna get there soon)?
  
• Patchouli - probably coming from an interesting concept we, humans, have created - "the forbidden fruit". In this case, the principle is simple: the more clothes a character has on, covering everything, the greater the desire to see them without those clothes. This principle might work on all 2hus, given how much ZUN likes covering them with as much clothing as possible. And since Patchouli has all those robes on her...it becomes obvious.  Is this how it works, or logic leaves me on this one?
  
• Yuugi - really not sure what to say on her. Big buff woman, I guess?
  
• Yukari - the reasons seem to be obvious. However, I cannot really come up with them right now. A bit of help?
  
• Sakuya - a bit and not so surprising at the same time to be in the category of characters with so much "saucy" works around her. How did this come to be? Is i a mutation of the pads meme? The only one such work I know is the one about Sakuya getting stuck through a wall (typical H-trope from what I can see - how do people even manage to get half stuck into something, especially a wall?) and people doing...stuff to her. 
  
• Aya(yayaya) - look who fate has turned on... The one character fans tend to portray as a pervert taking panty shots has become victim herself of perversion (I am totally not paid by Hatate to say this). Anyway, interesting to see her placed so high on the top. Guess protagonist + nice design + already established fanon?
  
• I will place Iku and Raiko together, since what I am going to say is mostly identical. None of them is very popular in terms of character. However, it is truly a surprise to see them ranking so high in terms of percent compared to other characters. They are also in my list of favorite characters, and so got my attention. I guess Raiko still has the fact she is a redhead going for her to motivate such "artistic" works.
  
• Keine - seriously, what can I say about her? I really have no idea.
  
• Yuuka - oh yeah. Also huh, another one of the 2hus from my personal top 10 favorites. I guess her fanon depiction has become fuel for some fetishes, and so a lot of fanservice? From what I have seen on Danbooru, most of her NSFW material tends to go from 0 to 100 real quick. From very mild, to very much not suitable for life and "this is such a bad day to have eyes".
  

• Also finally, there is this little thing (I cannot believe I had to rely on XE3G weeb for the info, despite how much I hate him as the creator of the "I want mommy" meme format and basically a huge liar). This is, at least from reading the comments, what happens when you let a hentai doujin try to do a safe-for-work project (game is Touhou Shoujo - Tale of Beautiful Memories)
  

Spoiler

The comments, knowing this dude and the kind of audience he brings in, are not so much of a surprise.

Honestly, I am not so sure why I am bothering so much anymore. I only end up looking like a failed crusader trying to have a failed fight against something I cannot defeat. But I think the simples thing would just be to sit down, relax and embrace the fandom with whatever it brings in, safe or not, in good or poor taste. But I am still curious though. It is almost pathological for me to ask questions about stuff I do not understand or might have a different opinion about. So yeah, this is the new direction in which the original thread is going. Since this is also basically some sort of fanservice, just of the more innuendo type. 

 

[Turbonator]

why is there so much questionable and explicit material about child-looking characters?

Most of said content is made by the Japanese.

From Wikipedia: "Fictional child pornography such as Lolicon, and Shotacon are excluded from the law. These fall under "cultural and artistic activities" which are protected by freedom of expression."

 

[CountVonNumenor]

From Wikipedia: "Fictional child pornography such as Lolicon, and Shotacon are excluded from the law. These fall under "cultural and artistic activities" which are protected by freedom of expression."

This is hilarious. Meanwhile check out the penal code of the United States and Romania as a stark contrast:

As you can see, drawing is included. There, if going by penal code, a good chunk of what e define as hentai is basically banned by law, even if Japanese legislation calls it "cultural and artistic activities" which are protected by freedom of expression."

Here is also the Romanian Penal Code, Article 372 (might need to study the Penal Code more as a Political Science student myself)

To translate for anyone not knowing Romanian:

Article 372 - Child Pornography

(1) Production, exposure or distribution, in any shape, as well as owning in the means of exposing or distributing of pornographic materials depicting minors, is punishable with 6 months to 3 years in prison.
(2) Is any of the acts mentioned in previous paragraph have been committed in a digital medium or through any other digital data collecting means, it is punishable with one to 5 years in prison.
(3) Child pornographic materials are understood as any material depicting a minor having an explicit sexual behavior or which, despite not depicting a real person, simulates, in a credible way, a minor having such behavior. 

The Romanian Penal Code does not go in as much detail about all the media through which such content is created or spread, but has a different, interesting part - the "despite not depicting a real person".

 

[SasaMisa]

No, no, no!!! Not this damn crap again!! (T_T)

How it is in Japan is exactly the way it bloody should be. People who obsess over the rights of fictional characters have lost their grip on reality and I for one am not going to get drawn into that argument again because it always devolves to hysterics. Lolis aren't people, they don't suffer abuse - stop listening to feminist lies and dogma!

As for H material in general, we all go through an ambivalent phase: that's part of growing up and experiencing new things. Even I did with Sailor Moon when I was younger, deleting everything and not looking at a single image for around 3 months until I realised just how ridiculous it was. The Japanese don't care what Westerners think because they don't see adult material in quite the same way we do. It's merely okazu to them, masturbatory material... and yes, there's just as much of it for women as well, take it from me, so this is not entirely a male-centric thing either. (>_&lt

Christianity has taught us to view everything as a sin, yet Buddhism & Shintoism teaches one to embrace life's pleasures (you do know what shrine maidens like Reimu were originally for, I take it?). The Japanese also utterly embrace the philosophy of keeping public and private life totally separate, something Westerners seem to have no end of trouble doing, especially nowadays. Wear a suit & tie during the day and toil at the office; spend your off hours drinking lots of sake and banging young women in an image club who dress up as anime characters for you. It's a totally different world, that's all I can say.

The way I see it, CVN, you have two choices: follow your own advice and chill out where this material is concerned, ignoring what you don't like and enjoying what you do, or run for office and attempt, no doubt unsuccessfully, to get it all banned. Personally, I'd recommend the former because the latter will deaden your soul, like it does with every prodnose who believes their life is the yardstick by which everyone else should be judged. Even Eiki wouldn't ban porn, you know, even if it was of her. (-_-)

ETA: Oh, and I actually bought that game incidentally; it's by the same circle as Youmu Konpaku & Dungeon Of Lewd Creatures. Whatever you may personally think about the content of those titles, I've actually talked to the creator and he comes across as a decent, hardworking individual who sincerely cares about his productions. No-one is forcing you to buy or play them - you are as free to dislike them as I am to enjoy them. Let's just leave it at that, shall we.

 

[Sci]

Because cute girls cute

 

[CountVonNumenor]

No, no, no!!! Not this damn crap again!! (T_T)

How it is in Japan is exactly the way it bloody should be. People who obsess over the rights of fictional characters have lost their grip on reality and I for one am not going to get drawn into that argument again because it always devolves to hysterics. Lolis aren't people, they don't suffer abuse - stop listening to feminist lies and dogma!

Hello. It seems like I accidentally angered you, for which I am very sorry. I don't know where you got the feminists part from (I am a dude), especially since in my country the feminist movement literally does not exist or it is seen as a joke and degenerate aberration created in the West (looks like some bits of dogma from the former communist regime are still alive in here, even 30 years later). Still, the principle is simple, at least according to state laws: if it is smut, it is smut no matter the character is real or not. 

This is the world I have been living in for the past 20 years now, the world I was born and raised in:

As already established through multiple threads until now, I am from Romania. Our country is rather... interesting when it comes to social values, and what people seem as a priority or not. As a society, we are quite a mix between old and new. While elements of modern culture and society are slowly crawling here through the advent of the internet, they are continuously crashing with traditions and old ways of thought.

In terms of society evolution, I would say we are still in the process of catching up with the West. We are right on the edge of the Balkans, and just neighboring Eastern Europe - two areas of strong traditionalism and conservatism. Besides, 45 years spent under communist dictatorship (with second half strongly dominated by a form of communism that was strongly emphasizing traditions and old traditional moral values - at least on surface), combined with a turbulent first decade of capitalism and a still ongoing healing process even after 30 years has made for a bit of a paradox. While we are trying to pose as a modern society, pretending to be on the same pace with "the Western model". At the same time though, we did not adopt all of their social ideas and movements, judging them as silly. 

Therefore, in Romania, there's little chance you will meet someone on the street caring about social justice, trying to make everything "politically correct" or anything that seems to be the latest trend on this matter particularly in Western Europe and the United States. People here were looking with raised eyebrows just a couple years ago when things went crazy in the US just because of an alleged act of injustice, and actually made fun of the puny attempt at local level here for a "BLM" protest at the time people were marching on the streets all around the West. If you put such question to the average Romanian, they will either have no idea what you are talking about, or will just tell you to go away with such stupid questions, as there are more important and pressing issues in our daily lives (right now, with increasing prices on everything, we might be slowly going towards "Current objective: Survive").

In short, nobody really cares about such issues. And for that, when I first stumbled upon a discussion about this so-called "art fixing", I was like "why do people even bother about it?". Even now, the subject is not clear enough for me, and so I am looking for a bit more detail on what is going on. Additionally, I would like to find out if such a problem has also been noticed in the Touhou fandom, or this entire process is just a fool's errand. 

As for H material in general, we all go through an ambivalent phase: that's part of growing up and experiencing new things. Even I did with Sailor Moon when I was younger, deleting everything and not looking at a single image for around 3 months until I realised just how ridiculous it was. The Japanese don't care what Westerners think because they don't see adult material in quite the same way we do. It's merely okazu to them, masturbatory material... and yes, there's just as much of it for women as well, take it from me, so this is not entirely a male-centric thing either. (>_&lt

This part is actually interesting. I like learning about new cultures, especially when they are extremely different to the one I am coming from. It is still more than likely a culture shock to me. We, as Romanians in general, look at Japan and the rest of North-East Asia as if it was a completely different planet from the realities of our own country, from customs to culture, values and even infrastructure & level of development. As for that materials, I guess they fall into the same category as that old illustrations Japanese have been creating since the 1600s? (funny how the whole tentacle trope thing for example has been illustrated since the 17th-18th century in old art)

Christianity has taught us to view everything as a sin, yet Buddhism & Shintoism teaches one to embrace life's pleasures (you do know what shrine maidens like Reimu were originally for, I take it?). The Japanese also utterly embrace the philosophy of keeping public and private life totally separate, something Westerners seem to have no end of trouble doing, especially nowadays. Wear a suit & tie during the day and toil at the office; spend your off hours drinking lots of sake and banging young women in an image club who dress up as anime characters for you. It's a totally different world, that's all I can say.

Even if rather vaguely, I think I have heard about the original scope of shrine maidens (a little bit of a refresh would be welcome though).

I think you have mentioned at some point you are British, correct? Therefore, you might be an Anglican (sorry for making assumptions). Well, Anglicanism (and any other Protestant branch) is quite different from the Eastern Christian Orthodox faith I was born and raised in (yeah, here the parents and society basically born you into the religion, as children are baptized to the Orthodox faith at the age of a few weeks after birth - i.e you have already been part of that religion even before you were born) Orthodox Christianity is a bit of an odd one, probably the most rigid of Christian branches and closes to promoting basically medieval era values IN THE 21ST CENTURY. These sort of values could have worked in a predominantly rural community 100 years ago, but in the modern age things are different. Anime is basically seen as idolatry here, an object of abhorrent sin. Again, in the 21st century in a society that wants to be seen as modern.

Aso I personally have nothing against the way people decide to live their lives. To me, as long as you are decent person and can have a nice conversation to, you can do whatever the heck you want or be whoever you want. 

I would definitely want to learn more about Shinto and Buddhism though, as they seem to be a very stark contrast from the values I was raised with in my community. Especially when it comes to what you have said. And for that, I am trying to be quite as open as I can in order to listen. 

The way I see it, CVN, you have two choices: follow your own advice and chill out where this material is concerned, ignoring what you don't like and enjoying what you do, or run for office and attempt, no doubt unsuccessfully, to get it all banned. Personally, I'd recommend the former because the latter will deaden your soul, like it does with every prodnose who believes their life is the yardstick by which everyone else should be judged. Even Eiki wouldn't ban porn, you know, even if it was of her. (-_-)

Alright. So, if I gave you the impression I came here to condemn the entire hentai industry, then I think I have failed to express my message. I have personally come to accept the existence of such content, and sometimes there is also a bit of good in it too. In the original fanservice thread, I have already mentioned my personal conditions/preferences for what I accept even if the material itself is NSFW. Long story short, just to be in good taste (even if that is relative). I am quite ready to leave things aside, but I am way to curious. Curious to learn and understand better the way people think and act. After all, this is not too different from a sociology research we are so encouraged to try in college. Also if I ever tried to run for anything, I would not ban this content like you said (I am laughing quite a bit at how Australia has decided to completely ban hentai). Besides, nice take on the Eiki part. Played it quite well towards the sentiments of the original poster (me). 

These are my personal rules when it comes to accepting NSFW material:

Spoiler

If I am to be honest, I think the two of us are on the same wavelength. I am not so much into the idea of "naughty" doujins, but illustrations by themselves are fine. Plus, I am looking for 3 conditions:

1) don't draw them minor-looking; it feels wrong (also probably related to a recent preference for older/more mature characters)

2) I'm trying to stay a bit far from exaggerated features like oversized boobs; some like them humongous, but I personally don't find it my cup of tea - normal size is fine

3) don't have them getting pegged; besides the fact it seems wrong, there's one more creepy thing about it. One thing I have noticed very often is that men in such images are drawn as faceless. The famous "Mister" is also faceless for example. Why? One reason I have heard is that you are supposed to self-insert into the image. FUCKING YIKES. So basically, it is made so that certain fans can fulfil their fantasies, which is again quite messes up in my opinion

ETA: Oh, and I actually bought that game incidentally; it's by the same circle as Youmu Konpaku & Dungeon Of Lewd Creatures. Whatever you may personally think about the content of those titles, I've actually talked to the creator and he comes across as a decent, hardworking individual who sincerely cares about his productions. No-one is forcing you to buy or play them - you are as free to dislike them as I am to enjoy them. Let's just leave it at that, shall we.

Let me be honest right now. I know absolutely nothing about that game I posted. All my info about it comes from a questionable source, I have only learnt about its existence today, and what I know from it comes from YouTube comments. Also sometimes known as:

There is no doubt there are also decent people who make this kind of content. And I am quite glad you had the chance to get in contact with such a person. 

Overall, I feel sorry to have angered you. I can understand if you were just trying to vent, as I also tend to get into a heated argument when I feel like I want to get something out of me. Perhaps now it will be a little more clear from what sort of background I am coming from, and how did I end up asking this kind of questions. Maybe this unrelated thing will calm down the waters a bit. Therefore, my sacrifice:

 

[Darksymphony777]

My opinion on why touhou specifically has so much porn could come down to ZUN being incredibly lax on people who use the property, a similar thing is with Scott cawthon of FNAF fame who encouraged fan games and was also lax towards his property, which can extend towards doujinshi/porn.

Hello. It seems like I accidentally angered you, for which I am very sorry. I don't know where you got the feminists part from

There are male feminist, just thought I let you know. And this phenomenon seems to be really concentrated in America/Europe

All in all, don't become obsessed with politics.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

There are male feminist, just thought I let you know. And this phenomenon seems to be really concentrated in America/Europe

All in all, don't become obsessed with politics.

Huh, I tend not to think about the fact there are also males like that. I just hope I do not get into that category, as this whole thread was a curiosity + vent sort of thing. As for the politics part, it is my field of study right now as I am preparing for a potential career in the field of diplomacy or public administration. 

 

[Darksymphony777]

As for the politics part, it is my field of study right now as I am preparing for a potential career in the field of diplomacy or public administration. 

It's fine to learn and study politics, you never stop learning new things.

But by obsessed I was talking about the personal idea of people seeing politics in everything to the point that they must try and force everything into their own political viewpoint and if it's not then it's an action of the other political side.

A sort of extreme version of "us vs them" mentality

 

[CountVonNumenor]

But by obsessed I was talking about the personal idea of people seeing politics in everything to the point that they must try and force everything into their own political viewpoint and if it's not then it's an action of the other political side.

A sort of extreme version of "us vs them" mentality

A very true statement. I would not have brought that if SasaMisa did not bring it up first in the first paragraph. Going on a political tangent he last thing I ever wanted to do, but I see he/she brought it up first, therefore I had to try defuse it somehow. Plus, I have only brought two extracts from legal acts in order to show a comparison between two very different systems, each with the own set of values and morals (at least from the perspective hitting closer to home). If I had a copy  of the Japanese act too, I would have brought that in as well for a better image. Also yeah, the "us vs them" mentality can be quite unhealthy, especially when used for not so good intentions. But yeah, I would like to stay as far from that as I can, at least here, since it is so unnecessary. 

Anyway, back on the original topic of the thread?

 

[Darksymphony777]

I like to bring up the point again that ZUN is lax on the property which could account for a lot of porn. If the creator has no problem with people using his character so it'll be safe to do well anything with them

 

[Isaac]

There is a lot you guys have discussed already but I'll just share my thoughts as well.

I agree with Darksymphony777 on the reason for the high amount of NSFW content. This is probably due to the fact that nearly anyone can use the property as they wish. The japanese law also contributes a lot and I understand SasaMisa to an extent too.

Personally, I'm not interested in any of that stuff. I'm enjoying touhou for the music and cool characters. I think my enjoyment would die if I decided to focus on the NSFW content. However, that shouldn't mean no one is allowed to check that stuff given how much there is.

 

[Tenkko]

Lax regulations, big cast, girls, etc. Keep in mind this happens with literally every piece of media that exists and will exist though.

Personally I used to be very anti-horny few years ago but as the years passed I just, whatever. Hell yeah booba. Also like I said in another thread big distinction between cute and/or sexy, and nsfw.

The art in that fangame is just so overdone that it loops back to being funny for me honestly.

 

[Turbonator]

Hell yeah booba.

Hell yeah brotha.

 

[SasaMisa]

Nah, you didn't anger me at all, CVN. I'm just kind of tapped out over the whole fictional abuse charade. As I declared in the general chat, I used to run my own H-manga/dojinshi site, so I've seen way too much of people getting all het up over what amounts to little more than fantasy at the end of the day. For sure, I was extremely uplifted when I read about Taro Yamada & Ken Akamatsu making a stand in Japan against the encroachment of this nonsense from the West, although I don't see that happening in my country anytime soon. No, we will continue to persecute people for having the wrong kind of thoughts while turning a blind eye to actual abuse because that's the British way. (-_-)

Incidentally, I sort of know how things are in Romania from Vee's channel since he is always commenting on the absurdity that is American politics these days and comparing it to the way things are where he lives, often humorously citing what his grandmother would say. I'm actually apolitical myself - never voted my entire life and don't care about such things - and Agnostic, despite being designated Church of England when I was born if it means anything (I did go to Sunday School when I was little; even still have the Bible they gave each of us).

Yeah, and ukiyoe woodblock prints clearly show Japan has never had a problem with nudity or sex. A lot of Americans in particular seem to think 'hentai' as they call it, a word that is never used to described such things natively (it literally means 'pervert'), is something they came up with quite recently. Western feminists also believe Japanese women are oppressed and suffer abuse from such material, which is utter nonsense because some of the best stuff I've ever seen is by women. I mean, Comiket itself was practically floated by them early on for heaven's sake! (*_*)

Note: Shinto shrine maidens were the ancient equivalent of kanbanmusume, designed to attract new worshippers to the faith. In many ways, Reimu's seeming obsession with donations isn't so far from the truth, even though ZUN chooses not to dwell on the exact method that was used to get said donations.

Getting into Buddhism a little more then, one thing that modern-day socialists don't understand is that nirvana is a personal journey to spiritual enlightenment, not a perfect society or utopia. Indeed, because it's a personal thing, nirvana can never be shared with anybody. Like I often say to my mate, Chris: my idea of heaven would be his idea of hell since the things we appreciate most in life are almost completely anathema to one another. Heh, me being a blatant nijicon into the loli, preferring the sort of scenarios you would find in an Enid Blyton storybook definitely wouldn't suit his appreciation for beer, heavy metal, and much more buxom ladies, I can tell you. (=^_^=)

In closing, I would add that Nitori from Hopeless Masquerade perfectly depicts my attitude to life, which is precisely why she's my favourite character from said game. Me being a practical engineer and scientist, and pretty easygoing for the most part, I choose to believe most issues can be solved logically, even though that isn't always the case unfortunately. Many of the guys here have touched on the reasons this stuff exists (Japan being Japan basically, nonchalent to a fault) and have undoubtedly gone through what I did with Sailor Moon to varying degrees once they realised the original creators didn't entirely share their Western sensibilities. Not sure that totally explains why so many people are enamored with the girls from Touhou Project, but it works for me at any rate.

 

[Turbonator]

Lolis aren't people, they don't suffer abuse

I think this point stems from the fact that historically, western art was very realistic and very much an "at face value" experience, symbolism taking the backseat most times. So now when the same idea of realism is brought to that, it isn't that much of a surprise why people think what they do.

Even Eiki wouldn't ban porn, you know, even if it was of her.

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[ACE_DEUCE]

Regarding the argument over lolis in this thread:

Spoiler

Regardless of how one may feel personally about it, I would've thought most reasonable people would agree by now that there's no use making a moral argument out of it. If you look at sexual assault and child sexual abuse cases worldwide and compare it to the legal status of loli content, the data unambiguously shows that making it illegal likely has little to no noticeable effect. One could even argue that it makes the situation in said countries worse, but there doesn't necessarily have to be a causal relationship there.

Getting back on topic, other than the obvious sentiment most people in this thread have agreed with regarding freedom of derivative content, there's a few more factors that I personally believe have played into this.

First of all, the data regarding NSFW Touhou art in general (as the OP only breaks it down by character) is roughly as follows:

• 4% of galleries submitted to e-hentai have at least some art featuring Touhou characters (not a very good representation as a gallery will count here even if there's only one or two images with Touhou characters in them)
  
• 3% of all images with an explicit rating submitted to Gelbooru are tagged with "touhou"
  
• 1.4% of all images submitted to Rule34 are tagged with "touhou"
  
• While the data on this isn't quite clear, compared to the total number of Pixiv submissions, Touhou accounts for 2.4% and Touhou works rated R18 account for 0.2%; do keep in mind that this also takes into account non-NSFW art as there's no data on how many works submitted to Pixiv are rated R18
  

These are still pretty big numbers when looking at it comparatively, but maybe not as big as someone might think so I thought it would be good to express this data here.

But anyways, the fact is that the Japanese cultural framework around sex and sexual expression is so radically different not just from most western countries, but from most countries period. I'm sure many people here have seen the "It's called hentai, and it's art" meme at some point, but the thing about that is that from a Japanese point of view, there's a lot of truth to that statement. Now, obviously, being a sex pest should be enough to get you ostracized from just about any social circle, but merely creating pornographic depictions of fictional characters is (at the very least within otaku circles, where Touhou is most prominent) typically not seen as any different to just creating regular derivative work. Sadly I'm not nearly educated enough to accurately explain the social and historical factors that contribute this, so this surface level analysis will have to do.

Another thing is that the number of male Comiket attendees (no data for Reitaisai but intuition leads me to believe that this should be the case there as well if it already wasn't before) has been steadily increasing since the dawn of the century, with men potentially even making up the majority as of a few years ago (or at the very least it being somewhat even compared to the previous overwhelming female majority). And the thing about Touhou is that it has at least one female character that appeals to any kind of moe you can think of. This then encourages doujin artists who focus on making doujins for men (i.e. mostly other men, and those doujins mostly focus on the female characters so as to allow the male reader to self-insert) to enter the Touhou space because not only does it provide you with already finished characters that appeal to whatever archetype you want, thus sparing you the need to come up with an original setting or plot, but is also very immediately recognizable. This also means you'll likely make more money, as you don't have to worry about competition too much due to most people sticking exclusively to hentai works featuring only a few select characters that they like (though that's a secondary factor I'd assume since doujin culture is never about the money first). And all of this not even considering the guys who already like Touhou and are making doujins of it right out of the gate.

Though all in all I personally see no issue regarding any of this, if anyone's actually upset by the mere fact that NSFW fan content exists (which is like, come on man you're on the internet) they can always just, y'know, not look at it. I will say one thing though, and that's that some of the most entertaining and thought-provoking media I've experienced falls into this category, be it erotic doujin manga or visual novels with sex scenes or anything in between, so it's definitely not worth avoiding something just because of "oh no sex".

 

[Turbonator]

The problem with the lolicon debate is eventually both sides run out of statistics to further their confirmation bias.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Alright, so since my last visit here a lot of interesting points have been brought up. 

I like to bring up the point again that ZUN is lax on the property which could account for a lot of porn. If the creator has no problem with people using his character so it'll be safe to do well anything with them

The whole liberty in the creation of Touhou fan content is almost incredible, especially when compared to other series I am familiar with. The only odd part about ZUN being OK with his property being used by fans for smut is that I was once told that he sees the characters as basically his children. But I will get back later to the artistic value of this. 

Personally, I'm not interested in any of that stuff. I'm enjoying touhou for the music and cool characters. I think my enjoyment would die if I decided to focus on the NSFW content. However, that shouldn't mean no one is allowed to check that stuff given how much there is.

Personally, I did not join for that either. But I accept its existence. And I think at times it is alright.

Lax regulations, big cast, girls, etc. Keep in mind this happens with literally every piece of media that exists and will exist though.

Personally I used to be very anti-horny few years ago but as the years passed I just, whatever. Hell yeah booba. Also like I said in another thread big distinction between cute and/or sexy, and nsfw.

Initially, i was just so much of an anti-horny as you. But since Touhou, I think I can split my stance on NSFW into 2 eras: pre-Danbooru and post-Danbooru. That is when I became more accepting of this sort of art, and when I created my set of principles to guide after for not falling into the way of the "coomer". Also yeah, there is quite a difference  between cute/attractive/sexy and full-on NSFW. I mena I am 20, but only way too late did some mental process start developing for me (some I should have perhaps already gone through). But like you said. 

The art in that fangame is just so overdone that it loops back to being funny for me honestly.

I am not angry or outraged by that game. I just think it is funny when someone who dedicated his work to NSFW content is trying to do a family-friendly product. 

For sure, I was extremely uplifted when I read about Taro Yamada & Ken Akamatsu making a stand in Japan against the encroachment of this nonsense from the West, although I don't see that happening in my country anytime soon. No, we will continue to persecute people for having the wrong kind of thoughts while turning a blind eye to actual abuse because that's the British way. (-_-)

As I was saying last night, I read a bit about those two people. What they are standing for seems like an extremely noble cause. Also, I did not know Japan is going through such a bad period in regards to copyright laws. There are still some areas in the world that are safe from most of the nonsense going on in the West, and I would say Romania is still one of them. 

Incidentally, I sort of know how things are in Romania from Vee's channel since he is always commenting on the absurdity that is American politics these days and comparing it to the way things are where he lives, often humorously citing what his grandmother would say. I'm actually apolitical myself - never voted my entire life and don't care about such things - and Agnostic, despite being designated Church of England when I was born if it means anything (I did go to Sunday School when I was little; even still have the Bible they gave each of us).

I have never heard of Vee. Could you please give me some details about him? Especially if it is related to Romania, I would definitely love to see the point of view of that person. In my case, even if I follow Political Science in college, I am ironically quite apolitical myself too. I did not go voting yet (even if there was just 1 major electoral campaign since I turned 18), and pretty much hate all the parties equally (so I cannot be biased in favor of one of them). Which traits i think might be useful for a future scientist or other profession that needs a degree of unbias (at least if we go by the principles expressed by Max Weber himself). I have never officially admitted to be Agnostic (perhaps I'm still in denial), especially since no matter how much I would disagree with the promoted values, I still follow them to some degree almost automatically. Also, please keep in mind that in Romania, until a few years ago, Orthodox religious classes were a mandatory course in public education here. The course was known generically as "Religious Education" with the focus of "studying Christianity and the other religions of the world", but it regularly turned into "why Orthodoxy is the superior religion even among Christian branches" and "why Christianity is the superior religion and all other systems of belief are bad". And I had to go through this for 12 years of my life as a child, especially at the age when a child is easiest to be modelled mentally. 

Yeah, and ukiyoe woodblock prints clearly show Japan has never had a problem with nudity or sex. A lot of Americans in particular seem to think 'hentai' as they call it, a word that is never used to described such things natively (it literally means 'pervert'), is something they came up with quite recently. Western feminists also believe Japanese women are oppressed and suffer abuse from such material, which is utter nonsense because some of the best stuff I've ever seen is by women. I mean, Comiket itself was practically floated by them early on for heaven's sake! (*_*)

Speaking of the woodblock prints. It is ironic how apparently even in the early Middle Ages, Europeans seemed to be much less prude than we are nowadays. yes, in that period stereotypically seem as fanatically religious. I wonder what created such a switch in mentality to have brought us in our state of thinking.

Wait, early Comiket was more popular among women than men? That is something I really did not know. 

Note: Shinto shrine maidens were the ancient equivalent of kanbanmusume, designed to attract new worshippers to the faith. In many ways, Reimu's seeming obsession with donations isn't so far from the truth, even though ZUN chooses not to dwell on the exact method that was used to get said donations.

So I knew something about that. Thank you for the reminder. Also I guess attracting someone to the religion could have been done through different means, seduction included if Ii got the logic right?

I think this point stems from the fact that historically, western art was very realistic and very much an "at face value" experience, symbolism taking the backseat most times. So now when the same idea of realism is brought to that, it isn't that much of a surprise why people think what they do.

Interesting point. From what I managed to understand out of art history, it is that Western artists have sough to represent as faithfully as possible the reality around them. Ironically, we did have an artistic movement known as "Symbolism" going against the trends of Romanticism, Naturalism and Parnasianism, but it was more about explaining the world through symbols (also a lot of depressing literature if you are reading the poems of Romanian writer George Bacovia). 

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This is basically a different way of saying "go touch grass". 

Regarding the argument over lolis in this thread:

Spoiler

Regardless of how one may feel personally about it, I would've thought most reasonable people would agree by now that there's no use making a moral argument out of it. If you look at sexual assault and child sexual abuse cases worldwide and compare it to the legal status of loli content, the data unambiguously shows that making it illegal likely has little to no noticeable effect. One could even argue that it makes the situation in said countries worse, but there doesn't necessarily have to be a causal relationship there.

Getting back on topic, other than the obvious sentiment most people in this thread have agreed with regarding freedom of derivative content, there's a few more factors that I personally believe have played into this.

First of all, the data regarding NSFW Touhou art in general (as the OP only breaks it down by character) is roughly as follows:

• 4% of galleries submitted to e-hentai have at least some art featuring Touhou characters (not a very good representation as a gallery will count here even if there's only one or two images with Touhou characters in them)
  
• 3% of all images with an explicit rating submitted to Gelbooru are tagged with "touhou"
  
• 1.4% of all images submitted to Rule34 are tagged with "touhou"
  
• While the data on this isn't quite clear, compared to the total number of Pixiv submissions, Touhou accounts for 2.4% and Touhou works rated R18 account for 0.2%; do keep in mind that this also takes into account non-NSFW art as there's no data on how many works submitted to Pixiv are rated R18
  

This is awesome to see some additional stats, and thank you for them. I admit, I did fail to bring a better image of the larger situation, but I worked with what I had available at the time

• a count of all Touhou NSFW art on Rule34 until June last year
  
• a chart made by our friend Tenkkko about the number of images related to a Touhou character as a whole vs how many of these images are under the R18 tag 
  

I have a few questions and notices:

• I have never checked the e-hentai website (I am honestly feeling way too ashamed to now I scrolled through such a source even if I had to do it for actual research).
  
• For the Gelbooru part, have you also added the "Questionable" label? Because from experience, the "Explicit" label only seemed to be used for images depicting intercourse (so no images of just half naked or full nude 2hus). Also Danbooru seems very weird nowadays, especially as the labels seem to have been changed to things like "General" and "Sensitive" instead of the old "Safe" and "Questionable".
  
• In the case of Rule34, if only 1.4% of the content is tagged as "Touhou", then where did the reputation of Touhou being among the most depicted things on that website come from?
  
• Same question for Pixiv as in the case of Rule34 - where did that popular idea of how much Touhou smut there is come from?
  

But anyways, the fact is that the Japanese cultural framework around sex and sexual expression is so radically different not just from most western countries, but from most countries period. [...]  Sadly I'm not nearly educated enough to accurately explain the social and historical factors that contribute this, so this surface level analysis will have to do.

And this is something I am wondering. Where did their whole different attitude towards such topics generally seen as taboo come from? For someone like me who loves history and want to study the sociological aspects of a society and its way of thinking, there are so man intriguing things in this story. 

Though all in all I personally see no issue regarding any of this, if anyone's actually upset by the mere fact that NSFW fan content exists (which is like, come on man you're on the internet) they can always just, y'know, not look at it. I will say one thing though, and that's that some of the most entertaining and thought-provoking media I've experienced falls into this category, be it erotic doujin manga or visual novels with sex scenes or anything in between, so it's definitely not worth avoiding something just because of "oh no sex".

Again, I will be honest. I would be a hypocrite if I said I hate this kind of art. In a way, there is something I can appreciate it for, and like I said in the opening post, I have a few self-imposed ideas to guide myself after in enjoying this kind of material. I tend to think erotic/pornographic material is usually devoid of any substance, only good for creating some short-terms pleasure. At least based on experience with the western idea of such materials (there are very much just the porn without any essence, without any thought-provoking ideas and concept, only there for a quick ride). I do not know how true this is, but perhaps we have a wrong understanding about what sort of media we are facing?  But I can see what you mean through the idea of media being much more than what it seems. I guess there is just a difference between something done in good taste and something done just for the sake of it and in a cheap manner?

For example this image. Even if it is tame, it still has a seductive charm to it. And I like it a lot:

Art by Kagari Sato https://twitter.com/kagari_gogo1109/status/1373623211783450624/photo/3 (Twitter decided this is sensitive content and put it under spoiler)

As for the "oh no sex" part. I live in a country where it is still heavily promoted the idea you have to remain a virgin until marriage. And what if I will never get married? Will I just die a virgin? All to me seems like a very flawed way of thinking, still connected to a piece of paper written 2000 years ago, yet still by some as if it was the holiest of things and the end of the world if you stray from its values.

The problem with the lolicon debate is eventually both sides run out of statistics to further their confirmation bias.

Pretty much. Confirmation bias strikes again, no matter what domain it is. Everyone tries to justify their point even if it means brushing off information they might find inconvenient for their cause. 

Alright, now that things seem to be settled for the time, part 2 of the question. We have gone through the creations themselves. The more philosophical question remains to be answered - why do people crave such kind of content? This is where the "thirst" part comes into play. Yes, we do have a lot of NSFW art. But since there is so much of it, it also means there is a high demand for such content. Where does this demand come from?

To me, it is funny how many times I get into a discussion started by an image of a Touhou girl drawn to be atractive, or with little/revealing clothes. Some people are joking, others seem to be unironical in their demands to [REDACTED] the 2hus. Basically the kind of people you would tell to go touch grass (or get a girlfriend as said in the postcard of Tubonator).  

And a bit of a bonus:

Long ago, I had with a friend from Ukraine a discussion in regards to tastes and art. Like where do you draw the line between an artistic nude and straight up porn. I know some draw such materials in order to make anatomic studies, and choose a Touhou character simply out of convenience. Others might be inclined to draw a nude for the sake of art, avoiding the provocative or erotic elements. And then the final category, the ones drawing nude in the purpose of creating smut. Anyway, our discussion started with me being too shy to draw a naked subject, and was looking to be given ideas how to overcome such a problem. And on the way, we ended up discussing the difference between porn and art. Here is an extract on how it went:

Spoiler

Me: There is one thing I wonder. How does it come most artists I know also draw NSFW behind the scenes? Most of the Touhou artists I know and like do it, despite their Pixiv/Twitter accounts not showing it unless a quick search on Danbooru. And now I see you did it too.

Him: Yes. Some art lads do it for practice Some do it because they got asked to but dont post it on main because that's what people expect, nice and clean posts since some might explore twitter in public

Me: At least do they bring you anything? since you said you are doing them as commissions.

Him: Commission work gets me money. Regular work gets me to practice on proper body.

Me: This reminds me about a series of multiple images/frames done by the French in the 19th century, and which put together in motion could make. For a short film of a few frames like how early films looked like. Does it count in the artistic category we have discussed days ago, or in the porn one? All I can say is that at least proportions are not ludicrous https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/4895114?q=kudamaki_tsukasa (warning NSFW content)

Him: her face suggests sexual intent and a thing like stripping (strip bar or else) exists

Me: Fair. To be honest, I am quite terrible at recognizing and categorizing things. Like I fail to make the difference between artistic and porn if you were to ask me.

Him: She is pretty happy about undressing in front of you, suggesting something more then just changing clothes or preparing for a bath.

Me: ah yeah, that face. Should it be neutral for artistic?

Him: and not be directed maybe? I mean, can just be like you would undress. Not caring. Just off the clothes go. No one is watching so.

Me: how do you usually depict indifference? And would not indifference make it even more suggestive in some cases? Like if she does not care whether you are there or not while doing the thing.

Him: I'll say this maybe, or indifference (two oil paintings are shown)

Daniel Peci - "Model Undressing" (2014)
 

Otto Lingner -"A Woman Undressing" (1892)
 

Him: back in the day this probably was the peak of snuff

Me: in the first one you just see her back, so no need for expression. Also nothing private can be seen besides a bit of the buns. Besides, I really do not doubt you, or try to say you are wrong. I am just not used to how this works, and simply trying to learn. (in the second painting) She actually does look a little depressed in this one, if not just bored of her life.

Him: if we do get into the old time shoes then it is still art. But some guests will start talks about it, probably the women. 

Me: I guess this is just not the norm in terms of the media I have been exposed to recently. Or at least you do not really see Touhou artists for example drawing this kind of artistic nudity for the sake of art, at least from I have seen. [at the time, I was still new to the concept of Touhou NSFW, and most of the stuff I came in contact with was yuri hentai]

Him: easily can be or is considered nsfw.

Me: of course it is because no clothes = big no-no even if the context is non-sexual or erotic.

Him: mh

[on-topic discussion ends here]

Meanwhile, this is me being too shy to go beyond this level when it comes to study art

Spoiler

Alright, this has been a long reply. Time to see your opinions on the matter, especially since it looks like I accidentally dumped in a lot of stuff again.