Are you guy still going to play future Touhou games after the Touhou 20 AI fiasco

[UltimaShojo]

Yeah yeah, a little too late for this topic now, but it needs to be said because I'm conflicted with how ZUN used AI.

I've heard the fact he used AI as nothing more as a tool, and he still affirms his stance on AI (which is negative). He also re-assured that Adobe Firefly was using royalty-free images (though I couldn't trust Adobe with everything nowadays...). I understand his stance, but I still disagree with his usage of it. Why does he need to use AI in the first place? People can make things without AI, so why did he used it? Especially in a creative space like video games were it's better to have human input rather than an automaton making it without any inspiration. It just feels crappy to use AI in any creative endeavors.

And so, here comes my main point: are you going to still support ZUN? For me, as long he doesn't use AI to make the "un-needed" assets and it's 100% human-made, then I'm fine with it. But I don't feel comfortable following along if that's the case, because as I said before, using AI for creative endeavors (regardless of how "pointless" they are) is unethical.

What do you think about this?

 

[Idkism]

I think that him using AI for game backgrounds is a nothing burger of a reason to stop playing his games, although it does bring a much larger issue; his inability to work with a team.
I personally don't care about the whole ethical dilemma of using AI, it's a tool that can be used for good or bad same as anything else, it's just that companies rely on it since it's cheaper and versatile, and since we're talking about companies they'll try and cut as many corners for the sake of investors.
My problem however is that taking into consideration the previous 5 projects he worked on and how the series is going, the guy has a hard time making a good game, let alone a great one. The only exception being FW and UM to an extent, 17 was horrible, 19 was a balancing and netcode mess, and the side games varies from alright to 18.5.
Worst part is that he's still adamant on the "doujinist" facade that he puts on, and so as a result can't work with people or make a dev team. Saying that "it's his choice" is stupid because it assumes that the games aren't declining, and honestly he could use the help he can get, guy's pushing 50...

 

[fazun]

Your arguments reek of reddit. Oh no zun used ai and my opinion SUDDENLY changed (I bet you wouldn't even notice these sprites in-game), my feelings are severely hurt.

The actual thing is that his games are kinda shitty, and they have always been shitty, but at least they were fun, now it's just an annual game conveyor, sometimes having cute designs and music, but absolutely not enough time spent. I remember a post somewhere about Zun actually talking about quitting to leave a place for better and newer works. Basically, if your only problem with touhou is some ai-generated backgrounds, it's kinda biased.

nothing burger

 

[fazun]

Saying that "it's his choice" is stupid because it assumes that the games aren't declining, and honestly he could use the help he can get, guy's pushing 50...

It is in fact his choice. We don't even pay for his games on 'ere, why should we tell him what to do?
IMO he's between two positions of "if I don't make a game every year, everyone will assume the franchise is dying" and "if I invite someone to help, I may lose control". I dunno, it probably would be better for him to make some final chapter for touhou as a whole, not changing anything globally, if he REALLY doesn't want to sell it or something. The impact of newer games and mangas on fans is extremely low, I think they're fine with what they have already. Everyone will completely forget about Zun's existence at some point if he continues like that.

 

[laselle]

will myself gonna keep playing his games??
i mean i got like the entire series yet in the wait-list of games to play xD and will be thinking of future games haha
but well yes a big yes i would keep playing them...

AI corncerns...
im somehow young in this world of PC and developing and i wonder if in the 90s and 00s people would argue similarly when it comes to use proprietary engines or when sony started to distribute dev kits when they released the ps1...

we know how nintendo is, and in the 90s as i know was not that quite diferent, they would sue you just casually name your store in costa rica super mario... Nintendo was always very conservative when it came to their ecosystem paying more attention to their games and if you wanted to develop a game in their console you will have it harder than in the new competitor sony, sony as we know they got in the industry abruptly, so their model was to work side by side with the developers, sony in that way pionnered kit development and the aproach developer-ecosystem...

what i mean by all of this is that anthropic or Open l'ai with their models are not more or less different than sony with their kit developments or godot foundation with its engine aproaching the studios to serve software that can implement in their work flow...

again, just imagine in the 90s or early 00s a group of programers criticizing all those ones that are getting more in touch with the help of sony or starting to utilize proprietary engines like unreal or cry engine just because were not building their own engines and tools... and an engine is more critical than using AI and we dont criticize anyone for using them...

so ist ethical, yes its, its 100% ethical to use AI for building whatsoever of your game... what it comes to corncern are the topics that surround AI,
like the case of Plant vs zombies where they developed zombies and plants using AI and what happended is that the final assets were disproportional, it has failed doing...

another example with nvidia and the coming DLSS where they are aplying AI filters, the DLSS has always been a toold for performance but now they want to implement it as an AI filter, will this gonna make devs like say capcom use it for all their assets ?? imagine if in 2030 just come out resident 10 wesker vendetta and it results that 40% of all the game was made out of a prompt including voicing, acting, dialogs DLSS in it too... and all of this because of recording cost and release the game in time, ok fine... why it costs me even more money ??

then capcom will laugh at me haha "he really thought AI would democritize and make more accessible games and technology"
your gonna keep paying the same or even more, and you dont have garanties if really AI really really make the product a better product or if there has been crunch or not over the employes...

but this is the case for AAA companies, i mean if you have like some good amount of millions and you can pay an army of people to work in your project then why to use AI, thats actually an ethical corcern...

for the case of zun, well he can make all the games without asking AI "make me this" xD so why to do it, dont know, because is lazy ass or want to change peoples mind in favor of it, in any case, ZUN doesnt deb anything to anyone we are playing free games, beside of having developed all the other games as it would be a normal devs so why to bother if he even prompt the entire next touhou 21 and the characters look disproportinal, it has always been that way man so why to bother

 

[hirohitofanboy]

Yeah yeah, a little too late for this topic now, but it needs to be said because I'm conflicted with how ZUN used AI.

I've heard the fact he used AI as nothing more as a tool, and he still affirms his stance on AI (which is negative). He also re-assured that Adobe Firefly was using royalty-free images (though I couldn't trust Adobe with everything nowadays...). I understand his stance, but I still disagree with his usage of it. Why does he need to use AI in the first place? People can make things without AI, so why did he used it? Especially in a creative space like video games were it's better to have human input rather than an automaton making it without any inspiration. It just feels crappy to use AI in any creative endeavors.

And so, here comes my main point: are you going to still support ZUN? For me, as long he doesn't use AI to make the "un-needed" assets and it's 100% human-made, then I'm fine with it. But I don't feel comfortable following along if that's the case, because as I said before, using AI for creative endeavors (regardless of how "pointless" they are) is unethical.

What do you think about this?

honestly it s fine he is working alone if ai can ease him a little and increase the quality it s fine

 

[Luki_zet]

Yeah yeah, a little too late for this topic now, but it needs to be said because I'm conflicted with how ZUN used AI.

I've heard the fact he used AI as nothing more as a tool, and he still affirms his stance on AI (which is negative). He also re-assured that Adobe Firefly was using royalty-free images (though I couldn't trust Adobe with everything nowadays...). I understand his stance, but I still disagree with his usage of it. Why does he need to use AI in the first place? People can make things without AI, so why did he used it? Especially in a creative space like video games were it's better to have human input rather than an automaton making it without any inspiration. It just feels crappy to use AI in any creative endeavors.

And so, here comes my main point: are you going to still support ZUN? For me, as long he doesn't use AI to make the "un-needed" assets and it's 100% human-made, then I'm fine with it. But I don't feel comfortable following along if that's the case, because as I said before, using AI for creative endeavors (regardless of how "pointless" they are) is unethical.

What do you think about this?

What's wrong with it? He openly admitted it so why should it be an issue.
The code is unchanged since long ago and he just generated some backgrounds and shit, it's not the end of the world.

the guy has a hard time making a good game, let alone a great one. The only exception being FW and UM to an extent,

UM mentioned

 

[Cheesus]

Yea not a problem
Ai currently is just a tool that you can utilize. It can save you SOME time and effort but ultimately dosent create the end product on its own.
I see it as using layers and different features of a drawing software instead of simply 1 page and a couple brushes. Using the features can make things easier and elevate your art but i dont see people criticizing others for using them and that they are not artists.

You are not going to be a bad programmer if you use an IDE for streamlining your code and project instead of just writing it on a notepad and using no tools.

andd most people also dont care about where their entertainment is coming from. Even if Ai could make a complete game from start to finish thats actually good to play then majority of people will play it regardless

 

[SateriCat17]

I'm normally against AI mainly because of how often it is used to deceive and because of how to me I see creativity as something to be cherished and that AI can often "cut corners" with such things. Though in the case of ZUN using AI, will I now all of sudden start being against him and future Touhou works? No! As other people have stated, he's only a single man, so he's limited in what he can do, but as Fazun stated, he probably should start working with other people to help him work on the games (though as a future aspiring storyteller, I do empathize with the idea and fear of "if I work with others, I'll lose my creative freedom"; though I am not as against it compared to when I was younger). But anyway, the point is, as long as ZUN doesn't use AI in everything regarding the games (which seems extremely unlikely) and doesn't lie about him using AI if he does in fact use AI in future games, I'm pretty much fine with him using it.
Unlike most others, I'm not someone who really sees that because of the newer Touhou games being "worse", that I won't give them a chance. I've always been able to see many different types of "bad" movies, books and tv shows in a better light than most, so of course, that can apply to games as well. Regardless, I've seen the heights of "shitty" before, so I don't consider any of the Touhou games in that regard, as no matter how "bad" a Touhou game may seem, it's almost guaranteed I've seen something genuinely worse. Well regardless, the point stands that I'll very likely try and play future Touhou games, even despite ZUN's use of AI in FW. More than anything, I quite like a lot of ZUN's concepts for different games, so I'll still be curious about what he makes next unless he genuinely does somehow make a game that's truly horrible to me.

 

[Dr.Hologram]

I'll probably continue playing touhou games but just not support ZUN (with money).

 

[Ashurbanipal_01]

If it's just the backgrounds then fine, it's not ideal but I'm ok with that. This has been said before but you got to remember that we don't even pay for the games on here so getting upset because he goes against your sense of artistic integrity is very entitled tbh.

 

[Spongelash]

It certainly lowers my respect for him as a creator by a bit. Hardly enough to stop playing what he creates, though. I think it is an offense but a very very small one; understandable to be upset over when discussing on its own but not deserving of being a prominent part of how you view the series.

 

[SateriCat17]

It certainly lowers my respect for him as a creator by a bit. Hardly enough to stop playing what he creates, though. I think it is an offense but a very very small one; understandable to be upset over when discussing on its own but not deserving of being a prominent part of how you view the series.

Truer words could not be said.

 

[NightFox]

while i don't fully agree with his decision, I think it makes sense in the context of the story. that being said I'm not sure if I can continue to support him if he continues to use AI in the future

 

[SateriCat17]

while i don't fully agree with his decision, I think it makes sense in the context of the story. that being said I'm not sure if I can continue to support him if he continues to use AI in the future

I find it pretty interesting that he connected AI to FW's story (which is one reason I'm not as against him having used AI in the game in comparison to many others), but I of course would prefer him to not use AI in future games either.

 

[Idkism]

I find it pretty interesting that he connected AI to FW's story (which is one reason I'm not as against him having used AI in the game in comparison to many others), but I of course would prefer him to not use AI in future games either.

To be honest it's a very lame way of doing so. Not like his stances on AI are strong or potent for this sort of meta narrative anyway, pretty much just the usual "AI can be used as a tool but we the artists shouldn't let it control us" that serves as a half stance for touhou fans in the west to eat it up and continue about their days complaining about yet another nothing burger.

 

[fazun]

I find it pretty interesting that he connected AI to FW's story (which is one reason I'm not as against him having used AI in the game in comparison to many others), but I of course would prefer him to not use AI in future games either.

Most of the people that suddenly declared Zun a heretic don't even know that the whole game is about A.I. and he mentioned this being the future theme after UDoALG was released. I just don't get people that really have to use a patch that... replaces ai background with man-made. And I don't get people that say they "won't ever support Zun with money", oh golly he's a known curmudgeon right? What will he do without your precious money?
I guess that's the reason content creators really rarely interact with their western community.

 

[SateriCat17]

Most of the people that suddenly declared Zun a heretic don't even know that the whole game is about A.I. and he mentioned this being the future theme after UDoALG was released. I just don't get people that really have to use a patch that... replaces ai background with man-made. And I don't get people that say they "won't ever support Zun with money", oh golly he's a known curmudgeon right? What will he do without your precious money?
I guess that's the reason content creators really rarely interact with their western community.

Even if people didn't give their money to ZUN, it's still known that he has a job outside of making the games. I think ZUN mainly has the games paid for one, because the vast majority of doujin groups do anyway, and two because he can make some extra cash on the side. (Though he does have some games priced a bit too high. I'm looking at you, $34 AoCF on Nintendo Switch/Switch 2. If it wasn't that high, I'd probably get Daddy to get it for me on there so he and my sister may play it with me.)

 

[fazun]

I'm looking at you, $34 AoCF on Nintendo Switch/Switch 2

Oh those consoles.

If Zun really wanted his games to fully profit, he'd have released EoSD, PCB and IN on Steam since these are obviously most popular and downloaded touhou games. I think he made a part of his games legally buyable outside of Japan to avoid confrontation with anti-piracy laws and please these damn people that really like to give their money to random people. Not like they are REALLY profitable, you know.

 

[SateriCat17]

Oh those consoles.

If Zun really wanted his games to fully profit, he'd have released EoSD, PCB and IN on Steam since these are obviously most popular and downloaded touhou games. I think he made a part of his games legally buyable outside of Japan to avoid confrontation with anti-piracy laws and please these damn people that really like to give their money to random people. Not like they are REALLY profitable, you know.

As far as I remember, the reason he hasn't released those games on Steam is because he apparently had lost the source code to them a long time ago. Though another thing I remember is that all of the games from PCB onwards use some of PCB's code as a base, so idk.