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Is It Just Me, Or Is Alice Margatroid Nowhere Near As Popular As She Used To Be?

SateriCat17

SateriCat17

Neko Youkai Meijin
Just an observation of mine. In the "golden age" of Touhou (around 2008 to 2010 or so), it seemed like works surrounding Alice were seemingly everywhere. Of course, not as much as works containing still-popular characters such as Flandre or Remilia, but she certainly was a giant of Touhou derivative works. But, despite me not being sure exactly when, it seems like by around 2016-2017 or so, she seemed to have become a more obscure character. Though I guess this already could be because of her not appearing in a game since Hisoutensoku back in 2009 (ZUN, just why did you forget about her despite you literally naming her and one of her dolls after your own group?), but still, it just seems somewhat strange.
For my own part, Alice isn't among my favorite characters, but I'm slowly warming up to her more from me liking her design (as with pretty much all Touhou characters) and from her appearance in PCB, but also because of PCB's stage 3 theme (The Doll Maker of Bucuresti) becoming among my favorite Touhou themes (mainly because it's more melancholic sound is just so glorious!) even to the extent that I consider the theme to be more of "Alice's theme" than Doll Judgement is.
But anyway, are those observations just me, or is it something that has actually occurred?
 
Alice design by John Tenniel (Alice in Wonderland's illustrator) is kind of generic in Japanese works. At least Margot's design is original (can't say that about PC98 one, Zun confirmed he stole it from some manga), but still too classic. Blonde, blue eyes, blue dress. A person unfamiliar with touhou is unlikely to remember that design + generic name.

She was popular because of two things.
1. There wasn't many characters to choose back then, and she was a part of the main cast, being close to Marisa.
2. Her whole personality in games was mostly being irritated by Marisa's behaviour, also she had voodoo in Bunkachou and let the lost fairies rest at her house in Sangetsusei. That's all. Of course fans rewrote the character, making her either completely mad like Parsee but in love or a endearing and lovely obsessive yuri girl. And all forced things become obsolete sometimes. There's just nothing to say about her at this point, IMO.
 
fazun said:
Alice design by John Tenniel (Alice in Wonderland's illustrator) is kind of generic in Japanese works. At least Margot's design is original (can't say that about PC98 one, Zun confirmed he stole it from some manga), but still too classic. Blonde, blue eyes, blue dress. A person unfamiliar with touhou is unlikely to remember that design + generic name.

She was popular because of two things.
1. There wasn't many characters to choose back then, and she was a part of the main cast, being close to Marisa.
2. Her whole personality in games was mostly being irritated by Marisa's behaviour, also she had voodoo in Bunkachou and let the lost fairies rest at her house in Sangetsusei. That's all. Of course fans rewrote the character, making her either completely mad like Parsee but in love or a endearing and lovely obsessive yuri girl. And all forced things become obsolete sometimes. There's just nothing to say about her at this point, IMO.
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Well, from my observations, it seems to have been in many ways been more than "just" that. I guess her popularity was like that in some ways, but as far as I know, she was even the subject of at least a few Touhou fangames and other stuff.
And, it seems like back then, there just really were a lot more people who genuinely liked her character (not just being a Marisa-obsessed yuri girl). It was much the same with Medicine, despite her unpopularity. Around that time, she too seemed relatively popular among a niche amount of people (though her popularity seemed to mainly be among some early YouTubers).
And that "niche" popularity is primarily what I was referencing in regards to Alice. Just didn't think to establish that notion.
 
SateriCat17 said:
Well, from my observations, it seems to have been in many ways been more than "just" that. I guess her popularity was like that in some ways, but as far as I know, she was even the subject of at least a few Touhou fangames and other stuff.
And, it seems like back then, there just really were a lot more people who genuinely liked her character (not just being a Marisa-obsessed yuri girl). It was much the same with Medicine, despite her unpopularity. Around that time, she too seemed relatively popular among a niche amount of people (though her popularity seemed to mainly be among some early YouTubers).
And that "niche" popularity is primarily what I was referencing in regards to Alice. Just didn't think to establish that notion.
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Well, if you can't find people that like Alice now, that just means her popularity is even more niche. There are Satono fans, you know.
 
fazun said:
Well, if you can't find people that like Alice now, that just means her popularity is even more niche. There are Satono fans, you know.
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I do suppose so. Though it still does seem strange regardless considering how as I already mentioned, Alice literally has her name attached to Touhou's developer.
Anyway, despite them not being my favorites (I already like Okina moreso, though she's not exactly among my "higher" favorites either, but I still like her quite a bit because of her role in HSiFS), I do like Mai and Satono, though I do prefer Mai more, mainly because I like her design more than Satono's.
 
fazun said:
Alice design by John Tenniel (Alice in Wonderland's illustrator) is kind of generic in Japanese works. At least Margot's design is original (can't say that about PC98 one, Zun confirmed he stole it from some manga), but still too classic. Blonde, blue eyes, blue dress. A person unfamiliar with touhou is unlikely to remember that design + generic name.
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i've seen same or atleast similiar design for a character named Alice in other medias such as Black Souls or Alice in The Nightmare Land
 
Naprzeciw said:
i've seen same or atleast similiar design for a character named Alice in other medias such as Black Souls or Alice in The Nightmare Land
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I still think Touhou's Alice is best Alice.
 
To be honest i like Alice in general, imo she's an interesting character, i also like her dialogue with Marisa in PCB, although it's cuz i love all dialogues with Marisa, she has quirky personality and in Polish translation Marisa uses silly or quirky (idk which description to use) dialect.

But what i like about Alice the most is her pc98 version, imo better design, or rather better overall
 
Naprzeciw said:
To be honest i like Alice in general, imo she's an interesting character, i also like her dialogue with Marisa in PCB, although it's cuz i love all dialogues with Marisa, she has quirky personality and in Polish translation Marisa uses silly or quirky (idk which description to use) dialect.

But what i like about Alice the most is her pc98 version, imo better design, or rather better overall
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I still prefer her PCB design (I like how ZUN's art of her in PCB makes her look very "youkai-like", even if unintentionally). Though I do agree with her being an interesting character.
Also, while I don't find much interest in Marisa, that free-spirited attitude of her's certainly does make her an interesting character. But, I do suppose most of the girls of Gensokyo are pretty free-spirited.
 
SateriCat17 said:
I still think Touhou's Alice is best Alice.
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Her design doesn't just copy the original one, therefore yes. It is cute and fitting into touhou, I just don't think it is able to inspire lots of people.

Naprzeciw said:
in Polish translation Marisa uses silly or quirky (idk which description to use) dialect.
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And in English she's mostly a redneck for some reason. They'd better not change anything at all.
Naprzeciw said:
Black Souls
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Ooooooyyyyyy
 
fazun said:
And in English she's mostly a redneck for some reason. They'd better not change anything at all.
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The fact that Marisa in English speaks with a sort of "southern" tone is absolutely perfect for her.
 
fazun said:
Her design doesn't just copy the original one, therefore yes. It is cute and fitting into touhou, I just don't think it is able to inspire lots of people.
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The fact that Touhou's Alice is so different from all other Alices is what makes her the best Alice. She fits in well to Gensokyo's fantasy.
 
fazun said:
I guess Alice would be English then. If she isn't already of course
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I think it's pretty clear that Alice probably moved to Gensokyo from Europe. It's hard to really say where in Europe she's supposed to be from (much like with Remilia and Flandre), though considering her last name is based on an English last name, then it is pretty possible her or her parents were from England. But then again, it's possible she could've been born in the Shanghai concessions (which would make sense, as ZUN has stated that his doujin group's name was based from his view of the Shanghai concessions).
It's possible that Remilia and the SDM crew could've met Meiling in the Shanghai concessions as well.
 
SateriCat17 said:
I think it's pretty clear that Alice probably moved to Gensokyo from Europe. It's hard to really say where in Europe she's supposed to be from (much like with Remilia and Flandre), though considering her last name is based on an English last name, then it is pretty possible her or her parents were from England. But then again, it's possible she could've been born in the Shanghai concessions (which would make sense, as ZUN has stated that his doujin group's name was based from his view of the Shanghai concessions).
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After many shower thoughts I finally decided there's no point of arguing where they are from. They're just "European" as if it were an abstract entity. PC98 Alice from Makai kinda breaks this though...

All I can say for sure is that calling a girl after a province of Belgium was a strong move.
 
I personally see Sakuya as being originally from Greece, though that's probably from me having watched the Hifuu Club anime. In regards to Remilia and Flandre, they were probably from somewhere around France, Belgium, the Netherlands, or western Germany. Belgium has been around since 1830 (so it's the youngest of Europe's current monarchies aside from technically with Spain), so it's hard to really say in general where the Scarlet sisters were from. But maybe you're right in that it doesn't really matter.
 
SateriCat17 said:
I personally see Sakuya as being originally from Greece, though that's probably from me having watched the Hifuu Club anime. In regards to Remilia and Flandre, probably would be somewhere around France, Belgium, the Netherlands, or western Germany. Belgium has been around since 1830 (so it's the youngest of Europe's current monarchies aside from technically with Spain), so it's hard to really say in general where the Scarlet sisters were from. But maybe you're right in that it doesn't really matter.
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I know right there's lots of different details but GREEK SAKUYA??????
Almost all the references are British. Dio, Jack the Ripper, you know. I'm genuinely curious how would greek-themed Sakuya look now.
 
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