Why the general hate for anime/modern Japanese pop art & culture? - Part II

[CountVonNumenor]

"i got this new anime plot. basically there’s this high school girl except she’s got huge boobs. i mean some serious honkers. a real set of badonkers. packin some dobonhonkeros. massive dohoonkabhankoloos. big ol’ tonhongerekoogers. what happens next?! transfer student shows up with even bigger bonkhonagahoogs. humongous hungolomghononoloughongous" ~ from the famous "New Anime Plot" copypasta (oldest recorded in 2016 via Tumblr)

DISCLAIMER: let's keep this civil, like we always managed to. If there is anyone not wishing to be part of this, I will try return as soon as I can with a more digestible thread, or just someone can enjoy. 

Originally,  was planning to write about something completely different today. However, just as I was ending my courses, I received the following message on a Discord group I am part of:


Quote

"Jeez not a surprise that so many dudes who worked on animes that sexualized highschool girls turned out to try and touch kids or end up having cp"  



And a history of anime series from the 1960s onwards

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Made some further modifications for adding up some ideas and making reading a little easier in some sections.

 

[Nekoko]

I’ve noticed that female anime characters tend to be more like a mix of several fetish rather than actual girls/characters. We could say the same thing for male characters, like 15 yo teens who naturally have the body of Schwarzenegger (as if it was normal and possible).

In my opinion there is a sort of dehumanisation of the human kind coming from hentai addict weebs and "DiscordMod" specimens (sorry for the actual discord moderator it’s not nice I know). They think it’s because hentai characters are fictional that they can allow themselves to support rape zoophilia or pedophilia (in a way we can call it support)

Right now I can’t really prove there is a correlation between loving this type of content and the desire of reproducing  what they see in Hentai irl. But I’m sure it can deteriorate the mental health of some people and, let’s be serious, Danbooru have its part of responsability in it 

 

[CountVonNumenor]

@Nekofire thank you for the reply! Given nobody wrote in here for a week, I ended up thinking this thread will go nowhere and I forgot about it. But you have brought some good points. A lot of the things you have mentioned remind me of this image, which despite the fact I have used in a different context (talking about Fusu), I think rather fits:

"No anon, your waifu doesn't love you or as you go out with her, or go into any sort of romantic confession to a complete foreigner. No anon, your waifu will not allow or want you touch her in inappropriate places. No anon, your waifu will not beg you have sex with her"

These are all coming from someone who has yet to even have the chance of even thinking what some of these things actually are (yeah, I still have to work on that aspect of my life...)

 

[Drunken_Flower]

To put everything simply (and bluntly)
it's Japanese animated soap opera.
Though anime is like a magic word to make people forgot that the west also made cheap awful stuff.

Existing public view
even if you only watch the quality stuff, general public already perceived anime as a down bad environment, even Japanese themself think so.
it will be super hard to convince them unless they took interest themself.
even if you manage to convince them, they'll probably end up greeted with the 'average stuff', confirming their initial opinion as true.

Fan services
i think i don't need to explain this you get what i mean
human nature at the pinnacle

Clickbaity
Most of them are just made for gathering audience. (in relation of fan service)
It's a business after all, the only way to get profit is to gather as many audience as possible.
For more extreme example is those "I isekaid as a lustful adventurer in a world consist only women" titles
(it's quite hilarious they used isekai as an excuse for defying social norms)

Cheap production
I don't know if you realized, but there's bazillion anime titles out there.
If you were to watch a random anime you'd surely be disappointed.
It's all just poorly put together for the sake of filling the market.
Getting as many episodes as they could with least effort.

Even the popular ones often just poorly written. *cough* i actually having hard time picking an example because there's so many of them
hmmm *cough* Touhou (ZUN pls) *cough*

If you had read a world class novel or movies or anime you'd understand how distant their difference than average anime.
Though it's quite unreasonable to demand everything in high quality. again lowest cost production possible for profit.
Quite a bad time to talk about this since last year there's was quite a few amazing anime released like Cyberpunk, Chainsaw Man and Bocchi the Rock.

And as an artist point of view
Anime artstyle lack of creative freedom, everything built on the same foundation.
They had ran out of originality that they had to put complicated design, like pattern on their clothes (ZUN PLS) or tattooed face (Demon Slayer) or multicolorred hair (Vtuber)
DON'T YOU KNOW HOW HARD ARE THOSE TO DRAW?

I haven't even picked on the animation
It took One Piece 1015 episodes to properly lipsync, that simple thing was delightful.
Again in relation of cheap production.

that includes me
help

edit: wait why there's two parts of this topic?
also use safebooru.org

 

[CountVonNumenor]

[No message]

 

[TheM3ds]

Honestly, this is the first time when I hear anyone comparing anime to soap opera, and therefore I m feeling a little surprised of the comparison. Especially when, at least here in Romania, we understand "soap opera" through the word "telenovela". But if you mean the idea of mass-production and repetitive plots/plot elements, then I may be able to see the similarity. 

I really have not though that the Japanese themselves would actually have problems with anime. Especially how popular and seemingly everywhere it is while walking on the streets of their big cities. As for quality stuff, I am still looking for something to start from. Yet I am not sure what anime series to start up with. I have watched all 17 episodes of Memories of Phantasm, the TeamFourStar Abridged version of Hellsing Ultimate, and was planning to watch the anime adaptation of Amagami.

(does anyone actually read these texts I am usually inserting into the threads and comments?)

If there is anything you would like to say, I would really like to continue this discussion, or any other thread I started. I have been feeling quite alone recently, especially since there has been so little activity at the Shrine since the beginning of the year, or at least past couple weeks. And this place was one of the few where I could still communicate with other people in a civilized manner and not be berated for writing too much. 

I'm not surprised somebody would be comparing anime to soap opera though it does make sense (at least to me) for the two to be compared together.

As for fan-service, I'm not bothered by it if the characters are adults or if it's tasteful though I can definitely why alot of people can be turned off by it (or even grossed out) with things like lolicon or ecchi. I'm particularly not a fan of how some Japanese media like to pander to some sweaty perverted Japanese males with boatloads of fan-service with no thought or substance behind it. Especially if the characters are minors, then it's not good.

As far anime recommendations go: Have you ever heard of Cowboy Bebop? I think it's a great series to jump into IMO, it has fluid animation, the characters are great without felling like walking anime tropes, the soundtrack is legendary and the fan-service isn't distracting. I highly recommend it.

It's okay mate, I've (almost) read of what you posted, activity here has been pretty slow lately, though it's peaceful around here so I'm used to it. Wish I could say more but I simply don't know what to say.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

As far anime recommendations go: Have you ever heard of Cowboy Bebop?

I have considered watching Cowboy Bebop for more than 2 years. However, I do not have a Netflix account (for using the most legal way of watching it), so I'd have to borrow my sister's account (I don't have my own account due to the fact I am barely watching films and series anymore, and am too lazy to go online search for those things if I really have to actually watch them; most of watch time for things has moved to YouTube). But I have heard that series is really good, so thank you for the suggestion. 

 

[Drunken_Flower]

I really have not though that the Japanese themselves would actually have problems with anime. Especially how popular and seemingly everywhere it is while walking on the streets of their big cities.

okay hate might be a gross overestimation
they simply just try to avoid it if they can, especially the elders.
the youngsters seems have accepted that anime is just a part of daily life, it just exist.
but again this depends on the individual, it's not uncommon for people to dislike moe stuff

talk about moe, can we use this term instead? since moe is the most common view of anime.

Even the popular ones often just poorly written. *cough* i actually having hard time picking example because there's so many of them

i just reminded what's a bad writing example
Lost Word
omg pls i cant take it anymore, i dont even know how to talk about this one
multiple plot points at once, unexplained coincidences, stretched logic, sudden convenience, plot twists, resurrected characters, character bias, i...
dont get me started on the side events

*cough* this is off topic about general anime hate already *cough*

Could you please elaborate some more in here? Especially in the part related to ZUN. 

my requirements for good writing is quite simple
'can i feel the writings?'

-------------------------

touhou, it's like pieces of worldbuilding, it's just a collections of concepts.
all the printworks so far just an introduction to character, how they behave, how they talk, what they do.
so far all the story told is about the world itself and it's residence, not about characters in a world.
if you were to spirited into gensokyo you will mostlikely be in awe with the scenery, not the individuals.

touhou is the kind of story that people will not enjoy listening but will enjoy researching

so yeah wheres the bad part? i will say the emotionlessness,
the manga are simplistic in nature. every plot point is very straightforward. that simplistic nature leaves no place for emotion surge.
in example the manga Detective Satori, it's just people running around chasing someone. it will be quite repetitive at times
yes it has some cool scenes but uh.. how do i say it i feel no emotion, i dont feel their struggle, i dont feel Miyadeguchi hatred. i just read them.

if i were to pick a priintwork it'll be CoLA, CiLR and WaHH, it's more focused into knowing the individual than the world. i felt some understanding in them.
also PCB and DDC story is pretty neat.
i haven't read Lotus Eaters, i should though, considering my name.

(does anyone actually read these texts I am usually inserting into the threads and comments?)

tbh no
i stopped few paragraphs under the video
 

 

[buskerdog]

Especially how popular and seemingly everywhere it is while walking on the streets of their big cities.

"Everywhere?"

Japan is full of cute marketable mascots and iconography, but you don't find material appealing to the otaku audience "everywhere" on the streets; unless you are in a specific district for it in a very large city, like Akihabara in Tokyo.

the youngsters seems have accepted that anime is just a part of daily life, it just exist.
but again this depends on the individual, it's not uncommon for people to dislike moe stuff

This.

For the Japanese, I think it's best to think of anime/manga as something like their equivalent to say, the film industry in America. For example, over there (and here in England for that matter) you're going to find a fairly significant number of people who are big fans of the MCU, and you're also going to find an equally significant number of people who don't really give a shit.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

I am sorry for my long absence. It is time to give some answers to a few points, as they cleared some things I may have misinterpreted in the past:

okay hate might be a gross overestimation
they simply just try to avoid it if they can, especially the elders.
the youngsters seems have accepted that anime is just a part of daily life, it just exist.
but again this depends on the individual, it's not uncommon for people to dislike moe stuff

talk about moe, can we use this term instead? since moe is the most common view of anime.

Thank you. This is interesting to know. Also, I am honestly feeling very confused about the meaning and use of the word "moe". Besides referring to something that is cute, how much does the explanation of the word expands? Even if to be fair, I think there was an explanation in the "why do we like waifus" video in regards to the whole "moe" thing, as well as how it spread to become so common, if not the most common view of anime.

touhou, it's like pieces of worldbuilding, it's just a collections of concepts.
all the printworks so far just an introduction to character, how they behave, how they talk, what they do.
so far all the story told is about the world itself and it's residence, not about characters in a world.
if you were to spirited into gensokyo you will mostlikely be in awe with the scenery, not the individuals.

touhou is the kind of story that people will not enjoy listening but will enjoy researching

so yeah wheres the bad part? i will say the emotionlessness,
the manga are simplistic in nature. every plot point is very straightforward. that simplistic nature leaves no place for emotion surge.
in example the manga Detective Satori, it's just people running around chasing someone. it will be quite repetitive at times
yes it has some cool scenes but uh.. how do i say it i feel no emotion, i dont feel their struggle, i dont feel Miyadeguchi hatred. i just read them.

This part reminds me quite a lot about some criticism I have heard in the past regarding ZUN writing. It was about the fact that stories feel stagnant, and that instead of a land and its inhabitants evolving and changing through time, it ends up becoming more of a "trivia-churning machine", as if being a collection of "oh, by the way...". I am not sure how much it applied to all written works, but I did feel it a little bit while reading Forbidden Scollery with how much mythology and Japanese culture references ZUN tried to shove in at every corner. That does not detract though from the fact I really enjoyed reading that series. 

tbh no
i stopped few paragraphs under the video

Thank you for the honesty. Next time when I have multiple text chunks like that, I was thinking of something. Would it work if I put the original paragraph in spoiler, and write a TL;DR version below? That way, one could get the main idea out of the text, and can get to the original as well if they actually intend to read the whole text. 

"Everywhere?"

Japan is full of cute marketable mascots and iconography, but you don't find material appealing to the otaku audience "everywhere" on the streets; unless you are in a specific district for it in a very large city, like Akihabara in Tokyo.

Honestly, I think I may have held this as a big misconception when I am thinking of modern Japan and the spread of media/exposure. The first image that comes to my mind is indeed the of Akihabara from Tokyo, but somehow my brain ended up turning it into a generalization instead of an exception/rare case. 

For the Japanese, I think it's best to think of anime/manga as something like their equivalent to say, the film industry in America. For example, over there (and here in England for that matter) you're going to find a fairly significant number of people who are big fans of the MCU, and you're also going to find an equally significant number of people who don't really give a shit.

Oh, I think that actually makes for a very good, and easy to understand analogy. Again, the problem comes from my (sometimes faulty) thinking, when I end up generalizing things and applying them to an entire group when it may be more likely the case for just a number of individuals within that group. 

 

[FiliStradivarius]

It mostly comes off as style over substance, though considering that living in Japan is very strict and anti-fun, they kinda need that to prevent pulling a Sephiroth and burning down their village to summon Meteor.

I just wish it was different.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

It mostly comes off as style over substance, though considering that living in Japan is very strict and anti-fun, they kinda need that to prevent pulling a Sephiroth and burning down their village to summon Meteor.

Oh, this is actually an interesting point. Would you like to detail it a little more? I feel like I might be again dominated by stereotypes and misinterpretations (you have already seen how much I got wrong about the media coverage and general interest in Japan for anime), so any bit of explanation is actually useful.