Why gatekeeping?

[CountVonNumenor]

I will be short: I believe gatekeeping is just stupid. Why ruin the fun of someone new into a series just because they did not do the X thing or read the Y thing? People get interested in a thing for one reason or another, and Touhou provides countless ways to enter. There is simply too much good content one can enjoy. Trying to keep toxic people far from your series is one thing, but absolutely stomping anyone just because they enjoy a thing for different reasons than you our outright BS. Guess it is just that some want to pose as superior, and the "greater than thou" feeling is strong. Do danmaku game series (and danmaku players) create some sort of elitism around playing the games themselves?

I will be honest. I am one of those "filthy secondaries" who got into Touhou thanks to the music, fanart, animations and characters. I tried the games, but I don't really think danmaku is for me (not having any prior experience with bullet hell games does not help either). All I just want is to enjoy the variety of content this fandoms puts at our disposal, as there is simply so much to go for. 

Just an old buddy I used to have a strong, petty hate towards, but now I am more chill about it. Haven't seen him in quite a while appearing in my YouTube community feed, actually...

Just me being petty again, for just as unjustified reasons. I think by now I am just wasting time with it, and perhaps should have not even written this. It is just like fighting against the wind mills, and should let things flow their natural way. I like the Touhou characters. So what? Their designs are interesting, backstories are good too, and actually made me curious to learn about the historical, religious and cultural/folk background that inspired them

And this was immediately after the Fumo sale fiasco from October (all the stock sold in 3 minutes, but accusations of scalping, artificial scarcity and too much demand from "non-fans"). I swear, by now I think I could just turn this into a freaking anti-BlankGuy thread, and things would have been the same. Anyway, where way I? Ah yeah, for a taste of something different...

Alright, this one is just too funny. Your average 1-star comment on Google Play/Store (totally now stolen from this thread https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou_lostword/comments/u412bg/a_reason_why_we_should_gatekeep/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)


So yeah, thank you for attending my latest TED talk. Next time, something more positive.

 

[Sci]

Honestly, despite playing all the games at least once, I don't even care for the shoot em up games that much.

There are many reasons to like the series, and for me, that's the incredible amount of community contributions like art and music.

So in my opinion, you're completely valid in liking what you like. Gatekeeping for petty reasons such as liking the characters (why's that a bad thing?) is the wrong kind of gatekeeping imo.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Honestly, despite playing all the games at least once, I don't even care for the shoot em up games that much.

There are many reasons to like the series, and for me, that's the incredible amount of community contributions like art and music.

So in my opinion, you're completely valid in liking what you like. Gatekeeping for petty reasons such as liking the characters (why's that a bad thing?) is the wrong kind of gatekeeping imo.

I know, right? Sometimes, people seem to want to gatekeep for various reasons. Some feel the series is getting too popular, others that new fans will dilute the series, and others...I don't know. Anyway, the common lesson: let people enjoy a series for what they like. With a series as vast as Touhou, there are so many things that can drag you in, and the "filthy secondary" material is also what brought many people in. Heck, that is how I discovered Touhou to begin with 

 

[TheM3ds]

Honestly this whole gatekeeping thing is just absolutely ridiculous, like I don't really need to explain why but It's also hard to take this seriously when you've got people complaining about shit like "Fumo aren't real fans!!!!11", doesn't help that I think Touhou YouTubers are annoying as hell, especially this clown, I find it amusing how this fandom can go up in flames in a matter of days depending in which circle you're in. These people are only adding fuel to the fire and they don't even realize it, this is just beyond pitiful. What time period are we even living in anymore?

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Don't forget the classic gatekeeping copypasta (paraphrased): "<<Gatekeeper>> is also nickname for your immune system. If you are against gatekeeping, it means you are against the immune system that keep you healthy"  

 

[TheM3ds]

Don't forget the classic gatekeeping copypasta (paraphrased): "<<Gatekeeper>> is also nickname for your immune system. If you are against gatekeeping, it means you are against the immune system that keep you healthy"  

Touché.


I should've also added that I'm not entirely against the idea of gatekeeping, hell if there's no other option or if things go from 0 to 100 real fast then I'd say yeah, I don't see why not. I just meant to say that I hate it when fans gatekeep for their own pity reasons, so they can keep-out all the "fake fans" while guarding their own turf for their own selfish gain alone, trust me you'd hate to see this happen often in other fandoms (as if it hasn't already happened before...) 

I think I've could've phrased this better but eh.

Sorry for not clarifying on the topic.

 

[Marc]

I've been one of those people who gotten into touhou not because of a game but because a certain character. It was thanks to that Sakuya vs frisk/chara vid that I found and I took a liking to Sakuya cuz of her broken ability. The first thing I did is look up a touhou fan anime and watch, like the dumbass I am I believed everything in it lol but now I've played touhou for 5 months. I don't play the games for fun I  play them just to beat them and to be like most touhou players instead of someone who never tried the games before but that was my choice since I've never experienced meeting a gatekeeper. While I'm not a fan of bullet hell games because of the difficulty for some reason I'm always craving for any normal mode 1cc in touhou games so I guess I've played it so much to the point where I desire to beat a game genre that I'm not really that interested in.

 

[niko uwu]

we should gatekeep being a nice person

"oh? you're a butthead? you're not a real touhou fan"

i think i've seen people who gatekeep people for not having beating x difficulty. like saying you dont actually like touhou if you haven't 1cc'd lunatic. its incredibly dumb. im convinced gatekeepers just do it to stroke their own ego. the example i mentioned obviously just wanna brag about being decent at the game, but the one in the screenshot probably just thinks he is better for not going outside or something

 

[CountVonNumenor]

I should've also added that I'm not entirely against the idea of gatekeeping, hell if there's no other option or if things go from 0 to 100 real fast then I'd say yeah, I don't see why not. I just meant to say that I hate it when fans gatekeep for their own pity reasons, so they can keep-out all the "fake fans" while guarding their own turf for their own selfish gain alone, trust me you'd hate to see this happen often in other fandoms (as if it hasn't already happened before...) 

I think there is a difference though. It is one thing to try keep a community healthy and sane, but a completely different to just block people from ever entering due to your own petty, arbitrary reasons ("oh, you never played the games", "oh, you cannot finish any game on Lunatic 1CC", "oh, you never read any official material", "oh, you are more interested in the characters - gtfo and play some Genshin if you like waifus, loser"). One little shade, and you end up from constructive criticism to outright policing a community. And for what? Just because you consider the newcomers to be "normies"?

 

[CountVonNumenor]

At some point in the past, I have written a topic related to the openness of Touhou towards new fans. Well, it ended up as expected: a mess that turned into a gatekeeper nest. The thread was closed in less than 24 hours by moderators

Achievement unlocked: LOCKED THREAD

Anyway, some of my favorite moments from the discussion (feat. trainwreck of a conversation)

And from here we get into the proper trainwreck:

(a breath of fresh air before going back into the disaster)

(and now back to the mess)

And for anyone who want to read the whole thing (I have cut from the train-wreck conversation a few comments as they were too long for screenshots and just bickering over character personalities), here it is. The thread itself has been reposted here on Moriya a few weeks ago, being among the first topic I have started. I think it might have also been my faut for basically creating gatekeeper bait with the whole topic

https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou/comments/svepiu/is_touhou_ready_for_new_fans/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 
 

 

[Tenkko]

The only good gatekeeping is gatekeeping yourself from the parts you don't like ?

 

[Cosmic]

How pathetic do you need to be to get mad at people for liking the characters in a video game?

 

[LorWkey]

SORRY FOR THIS BEING SO LONG...

To be honest, I have mixed opinions at gatekeeping. I was actually scared when some things occured like FNF-Touhou thing, Touhou Roblox games being flooded by kids and tiktokers, and so on; but at the end, I understood that those are eventual issues and dangerous and toxic people are not likely to stay on Touhou if they don't get the strange characteristics that Touhou has.

Another topic is the Fumo problem; well, I've seen people that "like touhou" because haha funny plushies without going deeper and only sharing the same memes of them; which I don't really see this as being a "touhou fan". Then there's touhou LW, which has brought some people that only play it because gacha but doesn't know a shit about it. And I could give some more examples of this tendency.

But it's funny how this BlankGuy is complaining and promoting shitty gatekeeping when he's kinda part of the Shitty shitpost of Touhou in YT that has been recently. I say this because this Constant Shitpost also brings these kind of people that doesn't go deeper on Touhou and just stay on unfunny memes (thing that he should be gatekeeping... But nah, he's just gathering around him what he hates).

The gatekeeping thing, at the end, has turned me very indifferent regarding to the ""Touhou revolution"" of these days. Touhou can be enjoyed by many ways, and stopping this in such pity and personal ways sounds pretty stupid for me. Yet, I understand that some can be scared of how dangerous are Mega-Popularity explosions (i've also felt like this many times).

Basically, if you've seen something of touhou but you stay in the slightest knowledge about it, that's fine. We all do that with other games and animes; (for example I like Megami Tensei saga, but I've just seen Persona 4 and 5 anime but never played any game; still I was able to enjoy a bit of it from the anime.  I'm not the biggest fan of Megami Tensei, and I know little-to-nothing about the franchise. However, I kept contact with it and I liked it).
Another thing is pretending something you're not, which is the case of the Fumo that i exposed; "Touhou fans" that just likes the plushies but haven't done anything with the franchise.

What I try to say, is that everyone can enjoy everything; not all people that comes to know Touhou has to be the greatest fan that has passed all games in lunatic and knows all the lore to be considered a true fan; but I think, at least, that person should show an interest to the Saga to be considered a enjoyer, otherwise that guy is just chilling with something on specific. About this latter, I have a great example where we can apply the gatekeeping philosophy: Touhou 12.3. Many people play it because the like fighting games; and found attractive the mechanics of the game, tho they don't show any intention to sail deeper.

Are these people touhou fans? I don't think so, they're only fans of an specific game; not of the franchise itself. Should we gatekeep touhou 12.3? No! Everyone can play any game. Should we control it or be against this if the game happened to get ultra-popular? Maybe... But, as I stated on the beginning, not many people will find it attractive enough to stay on the game or go further into what touhou is, so would be useless.

In my case, I'm bad at touhou danmaku games, but I enjoy the franchise in many other ways. Pity reasons as these are ridiculous for gatekeeping, we might just have to encourage the newcomers into the proper path on Touhou; while staying careful with the dangerous people. 

I hope my ideas have been written properly and understandable; as well as I've not contradicted myself during this long shit. If some of you have to point out something from my post; do it, this gatekeeping thing can be complex sometimes and I like to reach better opinions on these matters.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

SORRY FOR THIS BEING SO LONG...

Don't worry, you can never be too long with a text. Maybe it is just me, but I actually like reading (and writing) walls of text if I find the topic interesting. 
As for Blank himself I am not sure if he is unironic, a misguided fan, or just someone intending to troll and spark a fire in the community (with questionable results until now, as it seems I am the first and only person online who brought up this problem, most likely in a bit of pettiness too). 

 

[Bad Name 01]

Nope. We should have gatekept harder. Now people like ScarletFlameFlandre on YT are here chucking the shits over the usual cringe politics nowadays. This fandom is fucked like the rest.

Did I miss something regarding ScarletFlameFlandre?

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Did I miss something regarding ScarletFlameFlandre?

I honestly have no idea either. All I know that channel for is the extended versions of Touhou soundtrack

 

[ACE_DEUCE]

Hello to Moriya Shrine members, I've registered an account to post in this thread in particular. Why am I compelled to do so here where I have no idea how many will read it or care? No idea, maybe it's just cause the anonymity that comes with being on a new account makes it easier to express myself, as I know my words can only be judged by themselves due to lack of a personal context hah.

To contextualize, I've been an avid Touhou enjoyer since around 2011-2012, being introduced to it via the Super Mario World romhacking scene which was big back in the day. This doesn't make my opinion inherently more worthy than other people's, but I think it gives me at least some perspective.

I believe the word "gatekeeping" gets a bad rep, as it's often (as I've seen in this thread also) conflated with "elitism". There's no denying that a lot of the screenshots in this thread are utterly headache-inducing, but I'd absolutely argue they're an example of the latter. I can't imagine that most of those people are actually looking at any sort of bigger picture, and they just feel personally attached to Touhou for one reason or another. Then they see new people coming in and feel that some injustice had been committed because these people who somehow hadn't "earned the right" in a sense are enjoying Touhou and (usually rightfully) expecting to be treated just as any other fans (I believe J.T. Sexkik has a video on a similar topic that goes into greater detail?). These are silly sentiments and it's rather easy to clown on people like this, no doubt about it.

However, regarding gatekeeping. Throughout the years, many communities on the internet built around discussion of and mutual interest in art have, at the very least, drastically shifted in more ways than one (and Touhou is by no means immune to this which is the main point of this paragraph). Most that haven't are either dead, too niche to attract influxes of people, or have successfully gatekept. Personally, I'd much rather Touhou had some sort of normie filter for lack of a better term so that this entire thing would be a non-concern, but the nature of the Touhou scene in general makes that sort of impossible. Not here to harp on how popular=bad because wider appeal always leads to more popularity and generally since we'll never hit the mainstream this has little bearing on the overall situation. But the point I'm (hopefully competently??) trying to make here is that gatekeeping in the context of maintaining standards for a level of discussion and behavior (rather than keeping a community somehow "pure" as some people within the screenshots would want) is not only acceptable, but the ideal we should strive for.

If you consider for example three Touhou fans: a complete "haha funny fumo, i played luna nights tho" secondary, a /jp/ user who embodies the "reee normies off my board" meme, and someone who hasn't played a single game or read a single print work, but regularly reposts and discusses fanart and music remixes on forum sites. Assuming that they can hold a normal Touhou-oriented conversation and looking at them exclusively as Touhou fans, is there a reason to excommunicate any of them? No, at least I don't see one. However consider the following situations:

• The secondary consistently regurgitates memes based on flanderized versions of various characters' personalities and is naturally isolated from any discussions that are carried out with a certain presumption of knowledge regarding the world of Touhou.
  
• The /jp/ dweller begins to vocalize shared sentiments with some of the people showcased within the screenshots in this thread (except he'll probably also call you a racial slur) and is rather uncivilized when it comes to expressing opinions.
  
• The aesthetic enjoyer gains a sense of entitlement and is on a daily basis mouthing off to other fans about their superior status because the doujin circles that they follow are more underground, despite hardly engaging with any of the actual meat and bones of Touhou.
  

Extreme examples in any case, but they serve my point. Namely, many communities will (as long as the behavior isn't absolutely outrageous) in the name of including as many people as possible (for whatever purpose) sort of shift the goal post here, and as more and more people who act like this enter the fray it inevitably shifts more and more. But at their logical conclusion, any of the examples above have terrible outcomes. In the first one, genuinely passionate fans become the secluded minority as most are pushed away from the (now overpopulated due to ease of access) core of the fanbase, in the second example you are now 4chan but with none of the good parts, and in the final one you become an insufferable group of hipsters competing over nebulous things. Gatekeeping to me has never meant anything more than to set a definitive line in the sand when in the case that things like this begin to occur even in microcosms of the larger community, and I'm not sure when it began to gain such a negative connotation (perhaps some people within the internet cultural landscape have ulterior motives?  :SekiThink: )

This is very long and rambly and it's late at night and I'm not even sure how well I got my point across?????? Uhhh be passionate about what you enjoy and uh continue to create good fan content. Annoying people can be annoying and inevitably will be but don't let that become the status quo and stay consistent and principled regarding everything. I might forget I even made this account in the morning, thank you for reading and gooby e

 

[Tenkko]

Props for mentioning J.T. I think two of his videos sorta touch on the topic indirectly.

I mean it is like that, people will slowly integrate themselves into smaller communities, like-minded people stick together. Someone who's just here for the memes isn't gonna jump into a deep lore discussion they're not interested in (unless they want to be a nuisance). So... I don't really get the issue here.

People can talk all day about what kind of fans are bad but ultimately there's nothing to be done about it, they can only watch.
Or rather choose to watch. That's why I said what I said in that earlier post.

Hope I got the point. What I'm trying to say is that Twitter is a cesspool if you don't curate your experience.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Gatekeeping is another word of immune system. Those who are against gatekeeping wants to give every community on the internet AIDS - Meiring Hong

Spoiler

What did I just read here? This is so weird, yet so stupid at the same time. Gatekeepers really find new fuel all the time at how people tend to be, well...people. It reminds me so much of one of those weird drunk discussions you are having with a friend late in the night. Although "Okina in a wheelchair" seems to be a rather common meme in the community, and one other example of flanderization. As a new topic on that is going on right now...