Touhou 19 thoughts

[vanyk]

My opinion may be controversial about this topic. I just wanted to share my thoughts. 

I don't want to repeat others' thoughts, because everyone here gave good points about this game. UDoALG is not as good as we thought it would be and could be. It looks like the game was made in 4-5 months (for example, Chen's spinning animation had been done 5 hours before the game was sent to print). And we don't know whether most problems will be fixed. Let's hope BeatMARIO or somebody else would persuade ZUN to work more on Touhou 20 (BeatMARIO successfully persuaded him to add multiplayer in UDoALG and has already told ZUN about the problems with UDoALG recently).

What actually surprised me is the community reaction. I'm used to traditional "it is over, Touhou is dead" (because people have been regularly saying that since TD) and "I buy games to give ZUN money for beer". And... that's all. Most fans just wasted their breath, but nothing changed. Some fans say: "ZUN does not listen the fans", have you tried to talk with him or send him a letter about the problems? There are cases when small Touhou doujin circles ask him to write music for their games and he agrees (so we have official Shinki theme remixes (not only in AUS) and more Rinosuke related music). And when they get such questions, what do they reply most often? "I haven't tried, but I am sure he won't listen to me". And it seems like most fans think in such way, because ZUN has no idea what is happening in fandom. He gets invitations to Reitaisai and different meetings so he might think that everything is okay. And he rarely watches Touhou-related fan content himself (I don't know why), so he doesn't have the complete picture.

Well, let's imagine that ZUN is that bad that he doesn't want to hear his fans and makes Touhou only worse. But there is a problem: the fanbase is the one who creates Touhou. I offen hear the point that Touhou has enormous amount of fanmade content (especially in Touhou introductions), but there is the same problem: that's all, again. Most people just say that there is a lot of stuff, but it seem like nobody is interested in it or knows about it (and it is really a big problem, that fanbase doesn't know about the content it creates). Touhou remixes aren't popular now, Touhou style music is still not that known. Have anyone noticed those 2 good fangames which were released a few days before UDoALG's release? Anyone? I do not say that "anyone must create at least one fan works", but I'd like to see at least good advertising of the fanmade content (I can't call 3-4 playthroughs a good advertisment of those 2 games). So people would know about alternatives.

This reminds me a similar situation in TBoI community. There were times (before Afterbirth+ release) when this game didn't have any good modding instruments and mods like Godmode were one of the best, but you could see that they are just fanworks. Then Antibirth was released and this mod looked like original TBoI but better and with more content. A few weeks after Antibirth the official DLC was out and it was not that good in compair with Antibirth. So Edmund (the creator of TBoI) had to fix everything and he cooperated with Antibirth developers. And after that the next DLC was actually good. 

What lessons can we learn from this situation? The community had the alternative and most of the community KNEW about it. The creator also knew what was hannening in fandom. And they didn't even need to make a new game, they modified the original one. A lot of old Touhou fans say that they would like to see Touhou 8 remake. Well, why won't they create the one themselves modifying the original game? Wait, modify original Touhou games, is it possible? Yes, it is for a long time, there are already a lot of good mods (for example loddk (th15, thcrap), umalt (th18, thcrap), subhatred (th11 (only extra), thcrap), DDDDDDDDDDDD (th14, standalone), epro (th17, thcrap)), which don't just change textures, text, music, but also change patterns and add new spells or mechanichs. There are already several guides and instruments to make the modding process simplier. But still a lot of fans avoid this part of community and it is still not that popular (Yomi tried to popularize it. His most popular video about Touhou mods has 61K views, but you see the actual result). So we returned to the same problem: Touhou community knows nearly nothing about itself. And after that the question arises: why the community of the game which does not rely on fanworks could fix the problems, while the community which is based on fanworks doesn't even want to try?

This situation is quite sad and disappointing. Western Touhou community is very passive and we should improve the situation. I hope this post is not for nothing.

GOOD NEWS for the ones who still play UDoALG or want to play it. There are already several modifications that can make your game process much better. All these mods you can install using thcrap (if you want to use the mods that changes gameplay in multiplayer, both players must have the same mods, otherwise 100% desync):
Th19BugFixes (Fixes most bugs and crashes. DON'T USE IN RANDOM MULTIPLAYER MATCHES)
lang_en (English patch, the game is mostly translated, but if you know Spanish or Chinese I would more recommend using lang_es or lang_zh-hans, because they are translated more than lang_en)
Th19StoryBGMChange (Proper music for story mod (read ReadMe.txt in "alt" directory in the mod's directory for more info))
Th19Balance (Characters are much balanced. Also big nerf of Chiyary, and Rin fix. Read ReadMe.txt for more info. DON'T USE IN RANDOM MULTIPLAYER MATCHES)
Th19StoryBalance (Story mod is much more balanced. DON'T USE IN RANDOM MULTIPLAYER MATCHES)
Th19FixOrinLV2 (Fix Orin LV2 bug (included in Th19BugFixes). DON'T USE IN RANDOM MULTIPLAYER MATCHES)
Th19BigPortraits (Changes portraits for attack animations (customizable, only boss attack animations with big portraits by default. More info in ReadMe.txt in the mod's folder))
Th19ExAttackResAnimFix (Fix some extra attack animations (included in Th19BugFixes))
th19pofvui (UI is like in POFV)
visuals (Player's shots are less distracting)
th19gohei (Reimu's player sprite is with gohei)
th19oldspr (Changes some boss sprites to old ones)
alphes (Alphes styled character portraits)
BetterSoundClue (Changes some sound effects)
SakuyaTouhou19 (Adds Sakuya)
TESMgoofs (Meme, but with good boss attacks. DON'T USE IN RANDOM MULTIPLAYER MATCHES)
Th19Chaos (Unstoppable waves. DON'T USE IN RANDOM MULTIPLAYER MATCHES)

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, the netpatch for better p2p matches: https://github.com/RUEEE/th19p2vp

 

[Gri]

You can't really blame the Western community to think that Zun won't listen to them. Despise the demand for it, Zun has never bother to add english translation to the game (either by doing it himself or by hiring someone). This alone shows that Zun has little interest in Western community. In the end, yes you are are right, they could try to reach him, but we would need a great number of people sending "proper" email to Zun regarding issues with the last game, and we would need the japanese community to do the same.
 

it seem like nobody is interested in it or knows about it

This part is another topic completely. I wouldn't say that "Touhou remix" are less popular, more like some fan have heard enough (there's only so much remix of "UN Owen was her" you can heard before being tired of listening to the same tune). For fan games, that's up to the dev to announce their game. I haven't play much fan-game, but I make sure to leave review and talk about the game if it is good (which is what people should be doing, but there a lot of "passive" fans which just listen to music and look at artwork. You can't force them to be "active"). Playthrough of a game and stream are actually a very good way of making a game known.

A lot of old Touhou fans say that they would like to see Touhou 8 remake

This is actually an idea I had when seeing how UDoALG was "unfinished" and "broken", and when seeing the many comments of "Why is character X not there?". The community could come together and try to make a truly good, competitive Touhou VS game. Not need to wait for Zun to do it, he won't (this requires maintenance and updates, which Zun never do aside from very rare post release patch). This would be a BIG project though, since it would "serve" the whole community (so, a lot of pressure to whoever will want to do it).

Mods are all well and good, especially for making old game playable, but for new game it just feel like doing the work that Zun should have done in the first place (Modding takes a lot more effort than simply changing the game's original source code). Paying for a game you have to "patch" yourself turns off a lot of people, even if thcrap is easy to use (there's always the possibility of breaking something with too much mod). Pirating is an option, but always risky which turn off more people.

So, even with Mods, you can't fix all of UDoALG issues. Only minors ones. For things like missing Extra, Replay and Score, even asking Zun wouldn't work, since he'd never implement these feature post release, since this is how that game was designed. He'll only consider this for the next game, and I doubt it will be a VS game, making the whole thing a bit pointless.

Western Touhou community is very passive and we should improve the situation. I hope this post is not for nothing.

I am curious: do you know how the japanese community is reacting to Touhou 19, and if they tried to get things fixed? 

EDIT: On another note, thanks for sharing the mod list with everyone.

 

[vanyk]

You can't really blame the Western community to think that Zun won't listen to them. Despise the demand for it, Zun has never bother to add english translation to the game (either by doing it himself or by hiring someone). This alone shows that Zun has little interest in Western community. In the end, yes you are are right, they could try to reach him, but we would need a great number of people sending "proper" email to Zun regarding issues with the last game, and we would need the japanese community to do the same.

Thank you, for your reply. I agree with you, I am sorry, if my post was too offensive. ZUN said that he didn't expected Touhou to be popular in the West. In his view, fan translations would be better than official translations (he is not wrong, especially if you remember the official translations of fightings). Japanese auditory is his main target.

This part is another topic completely. I wouldn't say that "Touhou remix" are less popular, more like some fan have heard enough (there's only so much remix of "UN Owen was her" you can heard before being tired of listening to the same tune).

You can compair views on different Touhou remix music channels and see that there are less views than several years agree. I agree that listening to the same tune is boring, but for this situation Touhou style music exists (the last somewhat well-known albums are IBP and CoUD but more new ones are less well-known). But the problem is that Touhou remixes popularised Touhou greatly.

For fan games, that's up to the dev to announce their game. I haven't play much fan-game, but I make sure to leave review and talk about the game if it is good (which is what people should be doing, but there a lot of "passive" fans which just listen to music and look at artwork. You can't force them to be "active"). Playthrough of a game and stream are actually a very good way of making a game known.

Most devs use Twitter for announces, but most of such announces are left unnoticed. Creators of one of those two games tried to popularize their game via youtube (mostly the game's ost was uploaded), but it didn't help.

Some playthroughs of those two games had more than 1000 view, so I hope you know the names of those two games.

To be honest, I noticed that something is going wrong when ASL was nearly unnoticed in Western Community (this great game has been in development for 5 years), while WWW and DLW got much more attention in the Western Community.

About "passive" fans, again nothing was made to make them more active. And don't say it is because Touhou games are hard, then why there are a lot of Geometry Dash fans? Also there are a lot of fangames in different genres, so everyone can play what they want. I am bad in phychology, so I don't know how make them more active.

This is actually an idea I had when seeing how UDoALG was "unfinished" and "broken", and when seeing the many comments of "Why is character X not there?". The community could come together and try to make a truly good, competitive Touhou VS game. Not need to wait for Zun to do it, he won't (this requires maintenance and updates, which Zun never do aside from very rare post release patch). This would be a BIG project though, since it would "serve" the whole community (so, a lot of pressure to whoever will want to do it).

Yes, the community could make a great "Phantasmagoria", but sadly, nobody makes it. Soku fans didn't wait, they just created Soku 2. There were some good attempts to create a new "Phantasmagoria": TH09x (my most favourite, because it add a lot of new characters), 幻想戦劇夢 ～ Wonderful Battle Dreamer (good), FRI (not bad). But those projects are not well-known. And because the community us passive now, I am not sure the new ones will appear.

Mods are all well and good, especially for making old game playable, but for new game it just feel like doing the work that Zun should have done in the first place (Modding takes a lot more effort than simply changing the game's original source code). Paying for a game you have to "patch" yourself turns off a lot of people, even if thcrap is easy to use (there's always the possibility of breaking something with too much mod). Pirating is an option, but always risky which turn off more people.

So, even with Mods, you can't fix all of UDoALG issues. Only minors ones. For things like missing Extra, Replay and Score, even asking Zun wouldn't work, since he'd never implement these feature post release, since this is how that game was designed. He'll only consider this for the next game, and I doubt it will be a VS game, making the whole thing a bit pointless.

I agree with you. I wish he would make patches like in old days. (and mods are very stable nowadays even if they turn Touhou into another game)

I am curious: do you know how the japanese community is reacting to Touhou 19, and if they tried to get things fixed? 

From what I know, just a little bit better. They wrote a lot of mails to ZUN (and posdibly BeatMARIO), but ZUN's reply was something like "yes I know about the problems, I could fix them if they realy bother you". Also there was a tournament, where nearly everyone played as Chiyary, and ZUN saw the process. So, nothing really changed.

The only active community now, is Chinese one. Oh, there is a new game with new characters, the next weekend there will be scripts with more patterns for them. Oh there is bad netcode, we will fix it. At least Western Community fixed bugs and balance.

EDIT: On another note, thanks for sharing the mod list with everyone.

Here you are. I would be glad if more people knew about Touhou modding.

 

[Gri]

The only game I am aware of that was recently released is this Touhou/SMT crossover fangame (played the demo).

Other than that, I keep a lookout on Asprey's streaming for new fan-games (I don't watch them. Just take a peek to see what the fan-game is about). Of course, official reviews are better. Honestly, it's hard finding a good fan-game, since there's a lot of fans who would buy anything with the "Touhou" brand. It's hard to tell whether it's actually good, or just carried by the Touhou name.

 

[vanyk]

The only game I am aware of that was recently released is this Touhou/SMT crossover fangame (played the demo).

If you are talking about Artificial Dream in Arcadia, this fangame is really successful and managed to get a lot of attention. This game is really good.

If you are interested the 2 fangames I was talking about are 鈴集無名の丘 ～ Little Doll Queen (good game, with beautiful patterns (but mostly they are not hard) and cute artstyle) and 東方宝天京　～ Treasure Castle Labyrinth (also a good game). Both games were released on August 11. Yes, they are shmups (maybe it is the reason why they were unnoticed).

Other than that, I keep a lookout on Asprey's streaming for new fan-games

It seems like most Western fans watch only Asprey (I have nothing against him, he makes good videos). But there are a lot of other videomakers and streamers, for example PigeonVoyageur, Horrible Tales, williewillus, CrisdaOff (funny highlights). Alas, they are also not popular.

Of course, official reviews are better. Honestly, it's hard finding a good fan-game, since there's a lot of fans who would buy anything with the "Touhou" brand. It's hard to tell whether it's actually good, or just carried by the Touhou name.

I agree with you.

 

[Gri]

Yes, they are shmups (maybe it is the reason why they were unnoticed).

Aha. Of course I wouldn't notice. There's 18 mainline shumps games (not counting HRtP), and once I'll Lunatic clear all of them (currently about halfway through), I'll take a break of shumps for a while, so I have no interest in shumps fan-games (yet).
 

It seems like most Western fans watch only Asprey

Well, he's the one that pop-up in my recommendation. You know the algorithm goes: the more popular you are, the more popular you'll get. I also watch Suwako when the topic is interesting (no gameplay video, I hate his) as well as MegaPig, and Tenkko since he advertise his channel here (and he covered fan-game I haven't seen before). For gameplay, there's Jaimers, as well as a few other. Mostly use them for guides.

Also, I don't watch twitch. I prefer playing games myself, so I do know much streamer.

 

[Macbeth]

I think touhou 19 was a let down vs th9. Yeah i get it the ai cheats in th9 but in th9 it felt like you actually fighting against the AI, th19 feels like youre just playing touhou with half the screen

 

[Macbeth]

Th19 mp is dead…

 

[SystemRestart]

Okay, so. I finally played it, I don't have the english patch yet so these are just initial thoughts, before I fully understand some things (gameplay and character wise)

My first impression is, huh, no replays. I wonder if there could be some complication with implementing them in this game? Or was it a deliberate choice? I also noticed, the lack of scores, and no final stats page or anything. As far as I could tell there wasn't even a "thanks for beating [difficulty]!" message....? Unless I missed it.

I'm a little sad about these things, because I usually do challenges (or just 1CCs) and share my replays, or at least screenshot my final stats as proof, or a kind of trophy? Maybe that sounds like a stupid problem to have with the change, but it's just something I wasn't sure about. Is the objective to steer away from scores and competition?

I also just started getting good enough at survival that I'm started to aim for more score, so that's probably also a factor in feeling this way. But, I did still have fun with the survival and chaotic dodging, I liked PoFV and Loved PoDD, so I still enjoy that part of the format, I also kind of like that you get those 'cards' that give you extra stuff (like sub-weapons) after each stage... though I definitely prefer some over others, lol,,,

I liked that, too, the big roster and the different boss paths each of them takes. I haven't figured out how to utilize the, uh, force field thing (kind of like from when you Focused in PoFV, but this time when charging your attacks), so I won't comment much on that for now, but I do like the variance in the character's shot-types, though, just like the card additions, that can lead to preferences, and some of you might struggle with a little like I did.

I also wanna say, I really like the new character designs, and I'm very intrigued by them, I liked the last game's cast, so I'm excited to see how I feel once I know anything about them beyond a couple rumors and stuff about Son Biten. (It's fun to see Tsukasa back already, and interacting with Ran!)

I also have one thing I'm wondering about. Since in this game, you don't immediately lose a 'life', or a heart, if hit once, you instead start flashing and have to be hit Again..... is a No Miss run, never getting Hit? Or will there be a different category, like, "No Hit" for if you're literally never hit, not even once, and "No Miss" for never losing a life? Because in this game you you can get hit once per stage, it resets, AND I also think that if you are able to unleash a boss attack on your opponent, it also lets you takes another free hit without losing a heart/life, correct me if I'm wrong.......

I actually like the system, of giving you that buffer that you can kind of plan ahead to account for, it's neat. But I would like to do a Normal "No Hit" someday, I think that'd be fun

Need to figure out the english patch and understand how some of the new mechanics work, but I guess there's some stuff I'm iffy about, and some stuff I'm really enjoying!! Can't believe I didn't mention until now, the character portraits are very cute, and the boss sprites are impressive and make me miss doing pixel art..... but it is kinda funny when some of them are HUGE compared to others, like Ran's seemed......... lol

Interested to hear other's thoughts! Who were you most excited to see return?

 

[lastEngine]

i dunno i played only 7 and 18 lol :AyaSmug:

 

[vanyk]

UPDATE ver.1.10c IS OUT
https://touhou-project.news/news/11998/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2400340/__Unfinished_Dream_of_All_Living_Ghost/

- Fixed a bug in network battle.
- Added random select.
- Fixed a bug in Chiyari's Demon Fire.
- Fixed a bug in Achievements.
- Fixed a bug in the storyline so that the player loses if the game is a draw.
- Fixed a bug with the "Mini Bagua Furnace".
- Fixed that the "Watching Over Komainu" was ineffective on most characters.
- Fixed the behaviour of Yoshi Mourning's barrier against lasers.
- Fixed that most characters did not have their Spirit Strike enhanced by the amount of their Gauge.
- Fixed behaviour when pausing at the end of a round.
- Fixed a bug that prevented some inputs from working in the manual screen.
- Fixed other minor bugs.
- Fixed typographical errors.
- Overall character performance has been adjusted.

Chiyari is more balanced, but Zanmu is broken now.   :AyaSmug:  (we really need le sanae emote for such moments)

Edit: to make updater work remove readme.txt file in game directory.

Edit 2: made more tests, Chiyari is still broken  :AyaSmug:
Online mode is still slow, but it seems like it is more stable.

Edit 3: I am surprise, a lot of people say there were no testers except ZUN, while there were actually ones. It was stated in the original news article from touhou-project.news. Another source:

 

[Bonnie MKII]

Suika's portrait art doesn't read as her, she's way too blonde. I avoided adding my art complaints onto the list, since I was afraid criticizing ZUN art might get me burned at the stake for how iconic it generally is (also the list started getting long-winded). Sanae looks off, Saki and Orin's posing both look awkward, and Tsukasa's art seems worse (it's the ears) and it hasn't even been that long since she was introduced.


Man, the PC-98 ending CGs are leaps and bounds better than Window's CGs. I don't understand why the line art in Window's CGs is purposely made worse, and nowadays instead of color, it's just layered over some random wallpaper-looking background.

Spoiler

I swear the mountain image was legit reused in a CG in TH19.

The lack of Keiki really bothers me. She answered the call of the Human Spirits in the Animal Realm, gave them physical Haniwa bodies that prevented the Animal Spirits from harming them, and generally had those Human's interests in mind. So, if the Animal Spirits and their leaders are becoming a threat to Gensokyo, wouldn't it make sense for her to want to protect the Humans on the surface, from foes she's already fought? Heck, she could even send Mayumi on her behalf, since at least she'd be immune to any attacks by Spirits and can't be fatigued.

I think a chunk of the character roster only exists as it does to shoehorn specific animal reps for an overarching theme. Though, why 2 foxes?


I've asked myself the same question for a while. I feel like there are people nowadays that just accept mediocrity from series they are attached to, even if it's glory days have long since passed (I have a few friends who still buy Pokemon games on launch despite the quality dropping off a cliff and them knowing it). It doesn't help that I think the fandom over here can be toxically positive about anything Touhou-related, to the point where we just don't talk about quality... or they just politely shun you by ignoring your existence.

My alternate take would be that they got a free game with their $15 CD.


I'd say that's likely. I hate the "nothing" reviews on Steam, and it's the same for fangames too. I read negative reviews, because often times that person is passionate about the things they like, want it to improve, and can elaborate.

Someone I know bought Genso Wanderer because of the wave of positive reviews, claiming it was like Pokemon Mystery Dungeon. It wasn't, they were turned off by the overbearing enemies resetting any progress by destroying their items, and felt that they were lied to. They hated the experience.

EoSD has colored cutscenes and they're really good. It really shows that it had the same passion and effort as Mystic Square, even if it was the first game to be made in a new machine.
And yeah, I agree with your points here, especially with Genso Wanderer.