So... what happened to the Touhou fandom during May?! It was chaotic.

[UltimaShojo]

It was so messy; Ruw going out of control and copyright-striking all official Touhou music on YouTube, ZUN using AI and IceFairy getting his Twitter eradicated because of AI bros. How do you feel about it, everyone? I know it was a tumultuous time :/

 

[Idkism]

Yeah, Ruw's an odd follow; has some very weird guidelines and views, but i personally think that the AI situation has been blown out of proportion.
It is bad for a doujin artist (if you can even call him that at this point) to use generative Ai rather than asking or even using his own cult following, but at the same time, they were just used for background images; nothing too substantial, but still a very bad image of what's to come.
I personally just think that all of what happened in May was a sign of Touhou having an identity crisis; the people in it don't know if they want to manage it as a simple, but cultural doujin hit, or an actual IP, ZUN's frankly a hypocrite, as he wants to be the "ever so humble doujinist that does good music" but acts nothing like it.
And no, i don't think Ruw does his takedowns without approval from the guy he's literally a lawyer for, that's very unlikely.

 

[Crab]

It was pretty much what Idkism said, plus the other issues that the series have. Adding AI into his works gave light to other sorts of criticism the series currently deserve.

I'll be honest, having AI as a background image isn't that much of a deal. Background images are important to set the mood (if you change them to that specific photo of Nicholas Cage you'll absolutely ruin the intended experience), but no one really cares much about them: just don't mess it up badly and no one will complain.
I'd have issues if he used AI to do other important stuff, such as character design, lore, or music. So, in my opinion, having this allergic reaction to AI was beneficial because it ends the possibilities of an domino effect (because people don't like the term "slippery slope").

And regarding that lawyer, it feels like he doesn't know what he's doing. Targeting people who upload Touhou songs is to attack one of the things that make people like Touhou in the first place. Doesn't he have better things to do?
Like, sure, it's within their legal right, but doing that pretty much betrays it's community who just wanted to share what they treasured about the game. The take-down included channels that weren't monetized, so it wasn't about individuals trying to profit off other people's works. It felt more like "Since you guys already helped promoting the game, now we'll shut your channels down so we can siphon everything to our official media channel," because they didn't need to erase other channels in order to upload the OST's themselves.

And yes, it's unlikely the lawyer is doing these on his own volution. There are people trying to defend ZUN on this matter saying "His lawyer went rogue!", but let's be honest here, that's very unconvincing.

 

[Bonnie MKII]

that's very unconvincing.

If ZUN listened to some of his music on Youtube, all of which were not even officially uploaded by him at the time while Ruw saying that Touhou does not support "derivative content" on Twitter because some Japanese fan called him out of it by showing a art showcasing the example. Then it's very convincing.

Saying that ZUN was behind all of this is wild. If you make the argument that he should he check his lawyer sure. But otherwise is really just reaching the straws here. Unless there's evidence suggesting it.

 

[Idkism]

Saying that ZUN was behind all of this is wild. If you make the argument that he should he check his lawyer sure. But otherwise is really just reaching the straws here. Unless there's evidence suggesting it.

That's why i said that Touhou is having some sort of Identity crisis; from Ruw's tweets, he speaks in a "corporate, money driven" way which doesn't align with ZUN's "Humble Doujinist" image that he's trying (big emphasis on trying lol) to convey to the public.
I wouldn't say that ZUN doesn't know about his lawyer's bullshit, that's just all types of bad management, but it is still a very weird situation.

 

[Bonnie MKII]

Fair, probably he didn't looked at anything outside of his life, obviously the man has a family to feed. So it's understandable to not check out that much.

 

[Crab]

Saying that ZUN was behind all of this is wild. If you make the argument that he should he check his lawyer sure. But otherwise is really just reaching the straws here. Unless there's evidence suggesting it.

It's not "wild" to claim that. It's the most reasonable thing to assume.
Anyone who controls a brand as big as Touhou (which is worth at least millions) should know about what's going on about it. Obviously they don't need to know everything on the whole internet regarding your brand, but this issue was so easy to be avoided/fixed that I can't really believe on the possibility of negligence.
Absolutely no one else in the corporate world would be able to pull this an excuse and get away with it. Imagine if any other person/company said "Whoops~ My lawyer went rogue and now I accidentally took down 50 YouTube channels. Sorry guys, I didn't knew about it." People wouldn't forgive him/them so quickly. Except Nintendo, because they can get away with anything lol.

And entertaining the idea of "ZUN didn't knew", it would mean the man doesn't know the basics regarding his most important asset that brings food to the table of the family he's in charge of. He would need to be so ignorant, that people would start to wonder how he reached the position he's in, and... well, considering what happened with the AI situation you kinda have a point, lmao. All that happened over a goddamn background image, rotflmao.

Fair, probably he didn't looked at anything outside of his life, obviously the man has a family to feed. So it's understandable to not check out that much.

That's not an excuse, nor it's understandable. He has a good job and is in a privileged position on his life if you compare to the average person in Japan (or even in the world). Of course he should have the time to work and to check on things from time to time, and as the owner of the franchise he should be expected to do so.

In a nutshell, I rather believe he made a poor decision that affected mostly the western fans (who he apparently don't even know about) than to believe he doesn't know the bare minimum he should on his most vital asset. Both scenarios are bad and imply he's out of touch with his community.
These are my honest thoughts. And I sincerely don't dislike ZUN, but this situation is so unnecessary that I can't avoid to get a bit mesmerized and lower the bar a bunch. I also won't deny the possibility that you're right, but as stated it would only make things worse for him.

 

[UltimaShojo]

I'll be honest, having AI as a background image isn't that much of a deal. Background images are important to set the mood (if you change them to that specific photo of Nicholas Cage you'll absolutely ruin the intended experience), but no one really cares much about them: just don't mess it up badly and no one will complain.
I'd have issues if he used AI to do other important stuff, such as character design, lore, or music. So, in my opinion, having this allergic reaction to AI was beneficial because it ends the possibilities of an domino effect (because people don't like the term "slippery slope").

While I know that backgrounds aren't as important as characters, lore, and music, that doesn't exclude it from being created by a human hand. Letting AI even create "pointless" things that's meant for a human to do (especially if it's a creative work in general) is the worst thing you could do as an artistic person. So ZUN using AI goes against what the doujin culture stands on and its ethics. That's my view on this issue.

---

About Ruw being a difficult person and ZUN being neglectful in checking up what this man is doing, I don't have any comments for you guys' answer. You've said a lot better more than me. Thank you.

 

[No Account Name Idea]

It really was a strange time. With the YouTube takedowns and AI, it definitely feels like foreshadowing of worse things to come.
Still, I honestly think a lot of stuff could have been worse. The Touhou 19 OST, and in some cases, Touhou 20's, is still available on to watch on YouTube. Whatever may happen, we will just have to wait and see. Touhou has faced problems before, we'll probably survive this.

Also, Ice Fairy is gone?

 

[Bonnie MKII]

It's not "wild" to claim that. It's the most reasonable thing to assume.
Anyone who controls a brand as big as Touhou (which is worth at least millions) should know about what's going on about it. Obviously they don't need to know everything on the whole internet regarding your brand, but this issue was so easy to be avoided/fixed that I can't really believe on the possibility of negligence.
Absolutely no one else in the corporate world would be able to pull this an excuse and get away with it. Imagine if any other person/company said "Whoops~ My lawyer went rogue and now I accidentally took down 50 YouTube channels. Sorry guys, I didn't knew about it." People wouldn't forgive him/them so quickly. Except Nintendo, because they can get away with anything lol.

And entertaining the idea of "ZUN didn't knew", it would mean the man doesn't know the basics regarding his most important asset that brings food to the table of the family he's in charge of. He would need to be so ignorant, that people would start to wonder how he reached the position he's in, and... well, considering what happened with the AI situation you kinda have a point, lmao. All that happened over a goddamn background image, rotflmao.

That's not an excuse, nor it's understandable. He has a good job and is in a privileged position on his life if you compare to the average person in Japan (or even in the world). Of course he should have the time to work and to check on things from time to time, and as the owner of the franchise he should be expected to do so.

In a nutshell, I rather believe he made a poor decision that affected mostly the western fans (who he apparently don't even know about) than to believe he doesn't know the bare minimum he should on his most vital asset. Both scenarios are bad and imply he's out of touch with his community.
These are my honest thoughts. And I sincerely don't dislike ZUN, but this situation is so unnecessary that I can't avoid to get a bit mesmerized and lower the bar a bunch. I also won't deny the possibility that you're right, but as stated it would only make things worse for him.

Do you really believe that the same person who allowed fancontent to spread like fire (which by the way, it's one of reasons how Touhou got so popular in the first place), the one who listened his own soundtracks on Youtube, uploaded by some fan, mind you. Would ask his lawyers to took down channels over uploading soundtracks "unlicensed"? Also, it wasn't just the OSTs, fan-made tracks were also in danger because it used "Touhou" in the title, because for some reason, a guideline is a law according to ruw. Where it wasn't a issue before. It's not like Nintendo where they start to take down fangames for their games' new releases. Even to this day, your making money out of his IP as long as you're not commercializing it afaik.

And yes, that wasn't a excuse, having empathy does not mean acceptance. And ZUN should had done sooner than later, where the damage was still flesh. Then the whole situation would had died down easily and was only related to some backgrounds made by a AI. It made it worse by a lawyer who instead of doing his job, it behaved like a, should I say, a reddit mod who thinks it owns the whole world by powertripping his little sandbox that is his subreddits. Why I came to this conclusion is because of his Tweets lol

Regardless of reason, there's nothing worse than the other since the outcome would be the same. I'm skeptical due to reasons above.

 

[Bhrjr]

hot take, someone said this on 4chan, but I agree with it: Touhou doesn't belong to him, specially after what he did with 20.
Should've been in the hands of someone who cares.
This guy didn't even remember who Melilng was.

 

[Bonnie MKII]

hot take, someone said this on 4chan, but I agree with it: Touhou doesn't belong to him, specially after what he did with 20.
Should've been in the hands of someone who cares.
This guy didn't even remember who Melilng was.

Interesting, can you share the post if you remember? Otherwise, can you atleast describe what the anon said and the reaction if care?

 

[Bhrjr]

Interesting, can you share the post if you remember? Otherwise, can you atleast describe what the anon said and the reaction if care?

It was this post, when they were taking about touhou hot takes. But more importantly to the topic, take a look at his hypocrical statement:

ZUN : Creating is fun! But using AI is not fun! I can say that 100%. It's not fun at all to say "This is my work, what do you think?" when it's made by AI. There are AI artists now, but they're not fun.

https://x.com/KottaKagayaki/status/1928457698418561368/photo/1
P.s, sorry, I mistook on the Meiling stuff. You know how Meiling was fan-nicknamed as China? According to this article, it was that he didn't know the whole China meme, and was confused as to who the character was when someone referred Meiling as China in one of the interviews.

 

[Crab]

Do you really believe that the same person who allowed fancontent to spread like fire (which by the way, it's one of reasons how Touhou got so popular in the first place), the one who listened his own soundtracks on Youtube, uploaded by some fan, mind you. Would ask his lawyers to took down channels over uploading soundtracks "unlicensed"?

One thing doesn't nullify the other. It's been quite some time since then, and it's not outrageous to believe the man changed his mind after so many years (or that he is trying a different approach after the franchise grew so much). He tested the waters using AI once, so it's not crazy to think he's testing the waters with new copyright policies/guidelines as well.
About his lawyer showing heavy signs of having a powertrip, yes, fair point. He blocked a LOT of people to avoid criticism. It does indeed make it more believeable that he went rogue and started acting on his own, yet it doesn't necessarily exclude the other possibility.
I sincerely think the scale weights to the other side. Alas, I think none of us have concrete proof to say if A or B is real so I'll rest here with my thoughts on this matter. Twas a nice argument, genuinely.

And regarding the fancontent spread, you're 100% correct in stating that Touhou wouldn't be as nearly as popular if it wasn't for the fanbase. In fact, it's the fans' love for the series that made me like Touhou, and kept me liking it.

While I know that backgrounds aren't as important as characters, lore, and music, that doesn't exclude it from being created by a human hand. Letting AI even create "pointless" things that's meant for a human to do (especially if it's a creative work in general) is the worst thing you could do as an artistic person. So ZUN using AI goes against what the doujin culture stands on and its ethics. That's my view on this issue.

You're absolutely right here.
I haven't given much thought to that as my concerns were mainly "It would be bad if he started using AI to do more and more stuff." But considering the allergic response from the Japanese fans, I don't think he'll use AI again. Maybe he won't remove that specific background image, but I don't think he'll add anything else.

hot take, someone said this on 4chan, but I agree with it: Touhou doesn't belong to him, specially after what he did with 20.
Should've been in the hands of someone who cares.

I disagree because I'm a huge fan of private propriety, but at the same time I agree because the series would be doing much better in the hands of someone who would take good care of it.

 

[Idkism]

Also, Ice Fairy is gone?

Apparently he got his twitter account suspended, and from what i'm seeing; a mass report by some JP guys, likely AI bros

 

[UltimaShojo]

He blocked a LOT of people to avoid criticism.

Bruh, that's soooo unprofessional from a lawyer.

He doesn't have what it takes to talk about professionalism to us.

 

[Bhrjr]

I disagree because I'm a huge fan of private propriety, but at the same time I agree because the series would be doing much better in the hands of someone who would take good care of it.

I think it's time to ask what you would do with Touhou in your hands?
I, for one, controversial as it is, would make it a global mainstream franchises with proper seasonal anime and nintendo triple a game releases that people can keep track of (instead of this convoluted string of niche shmups, fighting games, music cds, mangas, encyclopedias that no one cares for). I always get fed up whenever people don't take Touhou seriously, and I want that to change.

 

[Crab]

I think it's time to ask what you would do with Touhou in your hands?

I would hire people more competent than me to do the jobs I don't know about, and profit from it.
I don't have answers for what people really would like within the series, but I'd absolutely go for an expansion of the series. Maybe not to the point of releasing a Triple A game (huge investment for uncertain results), but getting new genres, more character development, more content, and polishing the main-series games would be things to do on the list. Shame that those seem like a veeeeeeery distant dream...

I always get fed up whenever people don't take Touhou seriously, and I want that to change.

I mean, I'm kinda tired that the story goes "Incident happens -> Teeny tiny bits of new information drops -> Incident is solved -> Nothing ever changes" and I can't take it much seriously on the way it's going right now (paired with ZUN being severely out of touch with the community).
I can't care deeply for something that didn't convince me it's worth doing so, y'know? Don't go hard on people that can't see the light on the end of the tunnel (nor to those who can see it, but think it's a train coming to their direction).

 

[Bonnie MKII]

I think it's time to ask what you would do with Touhou in your hands?
I, for one, controversial as it is, would make it a global mainstream franchises with proper seasonal anime and nintendo triple a game releases that people can keep track of (instead of this convoluted string of niche shmups, fighting games, music cds, mangas, encyclopedias that no one cares for). I always get fed up whenever people don't take Touhou seriously, and I want that to change.

Claiming that Touhou is niche is like saying that TMNT is niche. Touhou is WAY TOO infamous in Japan, as much as Disney to USA. There are merch (like the fucking fumos you consume) and collaborations too (the one with Toby Fox).
Every single thing doesn't need to be this high AAA GTA level games with adaptations after adaptations to be "good". I do agree that, in recent titles, there's criticism needed. Like how buggy 19 was.

 

[Crab]

Every single thing doesn't need to be this high AAA GTA level games with adaptations after adaptations to be "good". I do agree that, in recent titles, there's criticism needed. Like how buggy 19 was.

I agree. It's very possible to have great content with a limited budget, but you need very talented, competent, and passionate people to do the job.
Yet, there's nothing wrong with the desire of growth. If you dream high and want to reach the starts, why shouldn't you give it a shot? Ambition can be a great thing if it's set apart from greed. In that scenario of "What I'd do if I was in charge of Touhou?", I'd make the series grow in the healthiest way I could find and I can't find anything wrong with that.

And regarding the quality of the games, I heard complaints about the main series games having a big drop on it's quality. Apparently that have been happening since quite some time, and while I can't attest these complaints myself, I know these came from people who actually enjoy the bullet-hell/Shmup genre, so I don't think they should be ignored. In fact, they arguably could be taken even more seriously than other people's feedback as they can put their bias aside and compare to other games fairly.