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Rumors of ZUN using AI to generate backgrounds in the upcoming Touhou game.

This reply is little bit out-of-context because MotK is currently down, but anyway
Bonnie MKII said:
I will put my 2 cents here so that this discussion can hopefully end. Otherwise, it's getting out of hand.
If in release, this game's usage of AI is more egregious like some of you claim to be, like even the characters were AI generated. Then it's alright to point this out, show screenshots of this instance, have proof that this game is filled with AI-generated content.
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Agree
Bonnie MKII said:
Criticism is important to improve a project after all (and yes, vanyk, anyone will call this out regardless of nation, whatever ZUN supporters or AIbros like it or not, stop pretending that it's only a "western" issue when in reality it's not as different as you think it is, especially when in China there's already a discourse about it).
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Yes, criticism is important. I like, how you made the next thing:
"we should change the tactic" (what I was saying since my first post in the thread) = "we shouldn't critisize ZUN".
This is not the first time when Western and Chinese fans complain alone about different things and outcome was always the same. Changes only happened when many of Japanese fans complained too. With current approach only few of them choose Anti-AI side. Maybe we should change the approach, shouldn't we? If you don't agree with this point, then okay.
Bonnie MKII said:
You can criticize ZUN over the usage of AI, just DON'T HARASS him and anyone involved over this. You can defend the guy over the usage of AI, just DON'T HARASS anyone who criticize him over this.
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Agree.


Meowskateer said:
woah, there was harassments happening??
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No (except some shizo posts on Twitter), just some actions by Westerners which are viewed by Japanese "supporters" in a wrong way.
 
Flame Sniper said:
It's been a long time since i posted in here, this situation keeps somehow getting worse as time goes on.

In case anyone here needs a TLDR and they would like to enjoy some drama, please check out my post on the matter in my site:

The Decay of Touhou Project - Nautilus

Answering the call from a new era.
nautilus.nekoweb.org nautilus.nekoweb.org
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I get what you were trying to imply, but a lot of your statements were came out of a high horse if you catch my drift. Sure, you were rushing out and was saying out of emotion, which is why I don't like some of your claims which I'll go into the parts that are relevant to this discussion.
Yeah, I agree that his usage of AI is indicative that he's lazy now, like I don't need to put that much effort to transform a stock image. Or how about copyright strike someone's collection despite it's contents are abandonware, and how said contents reuses assets and code from other games not made by the author.
Speaking of the latter, "Would you feel okay if ZUN stole your precious character?" is such a weak move. You are aware that the comparison are very similar (in some parts do look like traced) but different enough to call it as it's own, no? And that the games' in general are not some kind of AAA masterpieces who are "original" like Mass Effect or Elder Scrolls. These are "doujin" games (or indie if you're a peasant), meaning that it's expected to have something taken as a nod and such. Like any other games ever, basically. Because art in general, takes other people's work and each other, all the time. It was the case since it's inception and contiune to be, whatever you like it or not. (Of course, between a 3 year old AI is a whole another story).
Off-topic, but you should learn to separate "art" from "artists", you can love a franchise while disliking the developer. You shouldn't gave up your passion just because of some author messed up something that you feel like it's uncalled for. You're essentially wasting yourself by your own hubris (which I've gone through this before, I admit). Look, I do not hold you grudgingly, I say this because I feel like this is what I should do. I do have something to add to this conversation.

Which speaking of, I like the title of your blog "The decay of Touhou Project", which funnily enough, I do have gripes on this series which does contribute the "decline" for me. But I'll say it on another time.

(the patchy one was really funny tho)
 
Bonnie MKII said:
I get what you were trying to imply, but a lot of your statements were came out of a high horse if you catch my drift. Sure, you were rushing out and was saying out of emotion, which is why I don't like some of your claims which I'll go into the parts that are relevant to this discussion.
Yeah, I agree that his usage of AI is indicative that he's lazy now, like I don't need to put that much effort to transform a stock image. Or how about copyright strike someone's collection despite it's contents are abandonware, and how said contents reuses assets and code from other games not made by the author.
Speaking of the latter, "Would you feel okay if ZUN stole your precious character?" is such a weak move. You are aware that the comparison are very similar (in some parts do look like traced) but different enough to call it as it's own, no? And that the games' in general are not some kind of AAA masterpieces who are "original" like Mass Effect or Elder Scrolls. These are "doujin" games (or indie if you're a peasant), meaning that it's expected to have something taken as a nod and such. Like any other games ever, basically. Because art in general, takes other people's work and each other, all the time. It was the case since it's inception and contiune to be, whatever you like it or not. (Of course, between a 3 year old AI is a whole another story).
Off-topic, but you should learn to separate "art" from "artists", you can love a franchise while disliking the developer. You shouldn't gave up your passion just because of some author messed up something that you feel like it's uncalled for. You're essentially wasting yourself by your own hubris (which I've gone through this before, I admit). Look, I do not hold you grudgingly, I say this because I feel like this is what I should do. I do have something to add to this conversation.

Which speaking of, I like the title of your blog "The decay of Touhou Project", which funnily enough, I do have gripes on this series which does contribute the "decline" for me. But I'll say it on another time.

(the patchy one was really funny tho)
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Now that i got the steam out of my system, i am watching how things are evolving and well, they are getting increasingly tense on their own by now. Ruw is still in rampage mode with the OSTs, in fact, he blocked me on twitter over a very silly Flandre joke.
The main idea of the text was to give people a "wait, should I take things to 11?". Depending on how things continue to evolve I will decide what to do with the list, for example, nobody asked me if they could step up or decided to fork the project to continue the list.

I am aware of the Death of the Author concept, it's very useful here. I will wait until the Ruw stuff calms down a bit before doing more because i am shocked at how he is making this situation worse... Thanks for the feedback!
 
In my opinion, I'm a non supporter of anything created with AI. But it's true that I find no reason to harass someone like ZUN who only used it to improve an idea in a game he created. I mean, since 90's that he's making games and there was no AI back then so I think this thing doesn't change the situation at all...Only that can serve as a tool to increase game's agility in designing it and programming it. Plus, you can program an AI to get things you want or need for some topic in particular, but this is limited so obviously you'll have to use your own brain to improve it.
 
Witch Hunter Siegfried said:
I've got an eye for AI and and I'm almost certain those are all AI as I see some debate in this thread.
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As for my stance it's simple, I don't really have a moral issue with AI art but it doesn't look that great and lacks "soul" for lack of a better word. So I dislike it on that. If it's say something like my friend's TTRPG which is niche and he can't afford artists for then no problem (Also said game is free lol), but for a game like Touhou where Zun is capable of not using ugly AI generated backrounds I dislike it.
 
Bonnie MKII said:
I get what you were trying to imply, but a lot of your statements were came out of a high horse if you catch my drift. Sure, you were rushing out and was saying out of emotion, which is why I don't like some of your claims which I'll go into the parts that are relevant to this discussion.
Yeah, I agree that his usage of AI is indicative that he's lazy now, like I don't need to put that much effort to transform a stock image. Or how about copyright strike someone's collection despite it's contents are abandonware, and how said contents reuses assets and code from other games not made by the author.
Speaking of the latter, "Would you feel okay if ZUN stole your precious character?" is such a weak move. You are aware that the comparison are very similar (in some parts do look like traced) but different enough to call it as it's own, no? And that the games' in general are not some kind of AAA masterpieces who are "original" like Mass Effect or Elder Scrolls. These are "doujin" games (or indie if you're a peasant), meaning that it's expected to have something taken as a nod and such. Like any other games ever, basically. Because art in general, takes other people's work and each other, all the time. It was the case since it's inception and contiune to be, whatever you like it or not. (Of course, between a 3 year old AI is a whole another story).
Off-topic, but you should learn to separate "art" from "artists", you can love a franchise while disliking the developer. You shouldn't gave up your passion just because of some author messed up something that you feel like it's uncalled for. You're essentially wasting yourself by your own hubris (which I've gone through this before, I admit). Look, I do not hold you grudgingly, I say this because I feel like this is what I should do. I do have something to add to this conversation.

Which speaking of, I like the title of your blog "The decay of Touhou Project", which funnily enough, I do have gripes on this series which does contribute the "decline" for me. But I'll say it on another time.

(the patchy one was really funny tho)
Click to expand...
TBF the PC-98 thing was Ruw, Zun himself has said he has no issue with people pirating the PC98 games (no shit given they're not sold anymore, are rare as hell and thus go for like $2K a pop, and are only playable on obsolete hardware), Zun really needs to wrangle that guy better he seems to cause a ton of issues.
 
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