CountVonNumenor
Onshi
At the middle of October 2021 (on the 15th of that month), there has been one year since I have decided to get into this wonderful rabbit whole called Touhou Project and its community. Now that I think about it, the whole way I got into this has been quite a cluster. So, let's take it from the beginning.
How do you even stumble upon a niche game series
Before eve getting into the fandom officially, I have had a few contacts with Touhou. The first one of them most likely has to be a parody video. At the time, I was a Warhammer 40K (and If the Emperor had a text-to-Speech Device) fan, and found this parody about space marine captain Diomedes and his obsession about Baneblade super-heavy tanks. The video was is using U.N Owen was Her? as the background music, thing I have only realized after finally getting into Touhou.
Around the same time, I have also watched this video from Kaliningrad General as some sort of "WW1 in a nutshell" where, again, the background music was what I would discover later to be Native Faith. Also much later, I would discover that Kaliningrad has a second channel called Kaliningrad Alternate where he just shows how much he likes Touhou by making animations related to it.
In both of these case, I can talk about earl contacts with the music, way longer before discovering the game series. At the time, I could not understand all the references to this series, yet at a second look in the following moths, things started to look different once I finally got into Touhou.
How do you actually get hooked into a series
But what actually brought me into the fandom was the fandom came indirectly, in the form of getting an interest in Rhythm Heaven after the RH Reanimated video from September 2020. After more than a month of watching custom remixes, I stumbled upon a video called Nico Nico Douga Ryuuseigun.
This is literally what started my descent into the Touhou rabbit hole
That video featured a few bits of Touhou stages, one of which getting my attention. It was a segment in which Karate Joe, wearing a Reimu wig, was in the same room as a girl dressed in red, with blonde hair and funny looking wings. She got my curiosity, and saved an image for later research to find out who she is. The very same day, during a general conversation on Discord, a colleague showed in a screenshot the song he was listening to - something from the album Bullet Hell by RichaadEB. Right at the moment, I was a bit shocked. The girl on the album cover was exactly the same one from my video - Flandre Scarlet. Since that person in the screenshot was listening to a song I only knew at the time it was called "Bad Apple", I went on YouTube to look it up. I was not disappointed, as it was quite a good rock cover. After listening to the song and seeing for the first time the name "Touhou", my first instinct was that of going online and looking up the series. This must have happened on the 15th of October, as that is the date of the first Touhou-related image I have saved, the image of the album cover for Bullet Hell.
And the first Touhou image I have saved (also quite a good music album - really recommend listening to)
In the following days, the YouTube algorithm has decided to push me more and more Touhou content, mostly 2009-2012 era animations. One of those that caught most of my attention was one called "Rampaging Sakuya", which actually made me draw my first bit of fanart - a recreation of one of the hallway chase scenes, finished on the day of the November 1st, 2020. At the time, I also did start talking to one of my best friends, telling him that I have found out about this series called "Touhou", and a game called "Embodiment of Scarlet Devil" (at the time I did not know there are multiple games in the series). When I mentioned the name of the game, he seemed a bit confused, especially since my attempt at explaining EoSD was rather clumsy (I was forgetting names every now and then, as well as details). However, a few days later, he called me back and told me that "wait a minute, this sounds familiar" (he used to be familiar with the EoSD cast a few years before I got into the thing, but forgot about it since he did not have who to talk to about).
All I can say to have come next until the end of December was mostly more YouTube exploration, watching animations and slowly discovering the music groups, first being Shibayan Records, followed by Akatsuki Records (who I still love and listen to up to this day) and Shinra-Bansho with their 24/7 music livestream I used to boot into whenever I had some work to do or wanted some chill music for study. Shinra was also the first group to make me feel stuff (mostly a couple days of getting messed up and sad) after watching the music video for Junjo Arumeria (even to this day I find it hard to get back watching the PV without having that feeling of empty stomach like when feeling strong emotions, despite still listening to the song). It was very recent that I had watched a version of Caramelldansen featuring the cast from Immaterian and Missing Power. That one girls with grey hair, sword and floating phantom that I would go about like "who is this", would soon become Youmu Konpaku, my favorite character from the series - quite a quick evolution, but one influenced by reading the official materials available on the wiki, as well as listening to the original music themes associated to her.
Are there things to make you like a series you fell in love with less?
Until the end of December, everything seemed to be going wonderful. I started discovering the fanart, music groups and official works (at the time I was reading Bohemian Archive), as well as joining the Discord community, until disaster struck, things that gave me a rather whole image about the community and its content. During one read on TVtropes listing Touhou fan animations on December 31st, there has been one name the struck me: Koishi Komeiji's Heart-Throbbing Adventure. Not knowing what it was about, I started reading the synopsis. 5 minutes later, I was shocked someone could create such a cruel, gory and brutal piece of media on what seemed like a cute series. When asking a few fellows what's with this series, they told me this is how Touhou is supposed to be depicted as such. It has left me messed up for a while, and only months later would I get some more info on the context thanks to my spring threads on this subreddit. Combined to listening + reading the story for Dolls in Pseudo Paradise, it has become clear Gensokyo would be a horrible place to live in, especially if you are an outsider who got spirited away. I started imaging that if that ever happened to me, I would have just started crying and wishing for a quick death at how much my vision of the Touhou universe got ruined.
Trying to find answers to confusions and misconceptions
Until mid-spring, things started getting back on track, and I regained more of my positive view on Touhou. Early into 2021 I started watching the fan-made anime Memories of Phantasm, which unfortunately I did not manage to finish, getting stuck at Episode 8. At the same time I also started trying to play Perfect Cherry Blossom as my first Touhou game (even now, I still suck at that game, even on Easy Mode), and wanted to read more of the official materials available. But, just like before, another trip to TVtropes has ended up giving me a few more days of negativity about Gensokyo after reading the "Nightmare Fuel" section of their Touhou article, which further ruined my view on the fictional universe and lead to these two threads: one on trying to enjoy this series, as well as one about character flanderizations. Anyway, the second blow, combined with the original KKHTA blow, gave me two extremely conflicting images about Touhou - one fanon (+ apparently canon according to TVtropes) that was showing Gensokyo as grimdark, an another one represented by other bits of fanon (+ some canon too) that seemed rather chill and nice (at the time, I was also watching the Touhou M1 Grand Prix series, which I was having lots of fun). In the end, it seems like I have focused more on the nicer aspects of the series, or just those that made me feel happy and relaxed - it was in the days when I was preparing for the Baccalaureate, so I was looking for something nice to keep my morale high and not depress me even further.
In May 2021, Touhou Lost Word released its global version. Despite never having played a Gacha game before, I got curious to play it, especially since I knew I could get a Touhou fan-game easy to access and carry with me anywhere I go. Despite it turning into a grind kind of game, quite repetitive at moments, I still play it even up to this day, and still wait for some more things to be added just to know I achieved my objectives and maybe put it to rest eventually.
Ever since the beginning of the summer, there has been nothing new or worth noting besides starting to play Lost Word. I kept on drawing, albeit with long breaks between drawings, and listened to more of both official and doujin music - most recently listening to Changeability of Strange Dream and Neo-traditionalism in Japan, while also keeping in touch with the newly released PVs from Akatsuki Records.
Getting back to better times
In late July, considering I have gained enough knowledge, I have done my first character sorter. In most of the places, I had at least some basic knowledge about that character. Where I did not have enough or the fanon had a stronger imprint, I supplemented with fanon material. Overall, the idea was to see how much and what sort of impact did a character leave on me with the exposure I got to them up to that point. My first top 10 contained Youmu, Eiki, Raiko, Mayumi, Akyuu, Yuuka, Junko, Maribel, Iku and Hecatia as part of top 10, sorter with which I have gone until the end up February 2022.
Overall, after more than a year of being in this fandom, I think there are multiple shades of it. One side, you have all the cool fan art, music remixes, fan-made and official materials as a whole, as well as a lot of nice people that you can have a chill conversation with. On the other hand, there are bad apples too. Not too many, but they still exist. And if you bother too much with them, will just end up losing the enjoyment of the series. To me, Touhou has been a way of getting more easily over a rough part of my life (ending high school and an entire era of my life, the Baccalaureate exams and applying for college + college life), as well as one that strengthened my friendship with one of my best friends, since both of us had one more common topic to discuss about and share our passion for art, music and other works. Last but not least, Touhou has also been a source of inspiration for me to get better at drawing, especially since I wanted to depict my favourite characters in a better manner than I used to before.
Post-scriptum instead of ending...
This thread was initially written as a Reddit post in early November last year. Since that moment, many things have happened. I got to see my first popularity poll in October, ended the year with more music to listen to, then noticed the sudden surge in Touhou shitposting on the English side of the fandom.
1) The THwiki popularity poll 2021 (October 2021) - this has been quite an interesting thing, to say the least. Since I was not yet fully sure what to vote for in terms of music, game or print works, I could only contribute with vites in regards to the characters. It was quite a surprise to see Youmu winning for a second time in a row (at the time she was my favorite character, so I was not very bothered). It was funny to see everyone going crazy over the idea the votes have been frauded, and just patiently waited for the renumber to see who actually got in first. It is not like ost of my picks scored way below Number 30, but I was fine with it nonetheless. I was also impressed about the music picks. Idolatrize World - Entrusting the World to Idols getting second spot on the music section was a pleasant surprise to be sure, knowing what songs usually get the fist spots there. Now I really wanna see what will happen in 2022...
2) New music in my playlist (November 2021 - ongoing) - as the year drew to a close, I started to find more and more interesting music. I rediscovered Shibayan Records after more than a year (they were one of the first groups I listened. without knowing at the time though who they were) thanks to the "Myon saga" of songs. At the same time, Akatsuki Records first got Black Mirror on the Wall in October, followed by the release of the album Coooonsultant! in late December, together with two adorable PVs - best Christmas gift I could ask for. Meanwhile, IRON ATTACK has been another interesting pick in terms of music, as well as Komeiji Records with their Elegant Ice Maiden. I wonder what will come next in terms of finding interesting bands.
3) The rise of English Touhou shitposting (January - ongoing) - it all started with a singe video in the first days of January 2022. Signs of a rise in shitpost content became real since the spring of 2021, especially with Pearldrop starting to post daily his voiced memes. It started a "Touhou fans be like" title from one XE3G weeb going with a simple and easy to replicate, but catchy formula: "I want mommy / I want milk / I want to be held / I want to be comforted / And if you don't give me any of these / I will ruin your life". These words seem to have change the face of the Western (predominantly USA and Western Europe) kind of Touhou content forever, with effects visible up to this day. The format spread, started to get milked by anyone who wanted to make a quick video and get thousands of views in hours, and the meme diluted quickly. The first few were fine, but after a while everything became too repetitive. When the "mommy format" seemed to have lost its steam, it was replaced by the "x (Touhou) character fans be like", which lasts up to this day. Many have played it as if they were doing this kind of content purely for some views, after which they were complaining in a community post about not liking they have to do this content, since low effort shitposting brought them more views than high(er) effort content. XE3G himself made such a "confession" saying he is done with this kind of content. However, what a shock, few days later, along with numerous and regular posts of being all "thirsty" for Reisen, he got back to the content he swore he hated the most. All through February, this made me feel quite a bit frustrated, especially when comparing what content the Japanese part of the fandom creates compared to the Western counterpart (I have expressed it all in a very harsh manner at the time, and that text will come here too, even if a bit watered down in terms of wording). I thought the West is ost, without any chance for quality content, but from time to time, you still find that little bits of actually good content, even if it is not as visible. Many of the names that remarked themselves in the shitpost era seem to have disappeared. forgotten into the mass of other new creators that did the same thing or with channels that disappeared from radar. However, you can still find this sort of stuff recommended on a daily basis, be it that you watch it or not.
3.5) mIntermission: inusT released Eternal Night - Part 1 (22 Janury 2022) - after two years of work and a lot of hype, we got an awesome animation recreating the Reimu vs Marisa stage 4 duel from Imperishable Night. It is an awesome, quite intense animation, which was worth all the wait. To make it even better, he even teased the content of Par 2, which seems to be just as good as this one, a bit of content we did not manage to get in the original game.
4) Discussions about artistic liberty in Touhou art (mid March - ongoing) - this one will also get its own separate thread at some point. Most recent thing that caught my experience as a Touhou fan has been a discussion about what some people may see as too much in terms of liberties taken. Long story short: Brazilian Twitter female artist Linmie drew Reimu as brown/tanned. Someone asked in a rude way why Reimu was represented with that skin color, despite Linmie always doing that artistic option for Reimu. In typical Twitter fashion, things went wild, with people arguing over things (more on that when the actual thread will come out). That made me think a little: how much can you take in terms of freedom, and what people simply find unacceptable? Like there are things people are perfectly fine with, while others that will cause backlash.
How do you even stumble upon a niche game series
Before eve getting into the fandom officially, I have had a few contacts with Touhou. The first one of them most likely has to be a parody video. At the time, I was a Warhammer 40K (and If the Emperor had a text-to-Speech Device) fan, and found this parody about space marine captain Diomedes and his obsession about Baneblade super-heavy tanks. The video was is using U.N Owen was Her? as the background music, thing I have only realized after finally getting into Touhou.
Around the same time, I have also watched this video from Kaliningrad General as some sort of "WW1 in a nutshell" where, again, the background music was what I would discover later to be Native Faith. Also much later, I would discover that Kaliningrad has a second channel called Kaliningrad Alternate where he just shows how much he likes Touhou by making animations related to it.
In both of these case, I can talk about earl contacts with the music, way longer before discovering the game series. At the time, I could not understand all the references to this series, yet at a second look in the following moths, things started to look different once I finally got into Touhou.
How do you actually get hooked into a series
But what actually brought me into the fandom was the fandom came indirectly, in the form of getting an interest in Rhythm Heaven after the RH Reanimated video from September 2020. After more than a month of watching custom remixes, I stumbled upon a video called Nico Nico Douga Ryuuseigun.
This is literally what started my descent into the Touhou rabbit hole
That video featured a few bits of Touhou stages, one of which getting my attention. It was a segment in which Karate Joe, wearing a Reimu wig, was in the same room as a girl dressed in red, with blonde hair and funny looking wings. She got my curiosity, and saved an image for later research to find out who she is. The very same day, during a general conversation on Discord, a colleague showed in a screenshot the song he was listening to - something from the album Bullet Hell by RichaadEB. Right at the moment, I was a bit shocked. The girl on the album cover was exactly the same one from my video - Flandre Scarlet. Since that person in the screenshot was listening to a song I only knew at the time it was called "Bad Apple", I went on YouTube to look it up. I was not disappointed, as it was quite a good rock cover. After listening to the song and seeing for the first time the name "Touhou", my first instinct was that of going online and looking up the series. This must have happened on the 15th of October, as that is the date of the first Touhou-related image I have saved, the image of the album cover for Bullet Hell.
And the first Touhou image I have saved (also quite a good music album - really recommend listening to)
In the following days, the YouTube algorithm has decided to push me more and more Touhou content, mostly 2009-2012 era animations. One of those that caught most of my attention was one called "Rampaging Sakuya", which actually made me draw my first bit of fanart - a recreation of one of the hallway chase scenes, finished on the day of the November 1st, 2020. At the time, I also did start talking to one of my best friends, telling him that I have found out about this series called "Touhou", and a game called "Embodiment of Scarlet Devil" (at the time I did not know there are multiple games in the series). When I mentioned the name of the game, he seemed a bit confused, especially since my attempt at explaining EoSD was rather clumsy (I was forgetting names every now and then, as well as details). However, a few days later, he called me back and told me that "wait a minute, this sounds familiar" (he used to be familiar with the EoSD cast a few years before I got into the thing, but forgot about it since he did not have who to talk to about).
All I can say to have come next until the end of December was mostly more YouTube exploration, watching animations and slowly discovering the music groups, first being Shibayan Records, followed by Akatsuki Records (who I still love and listen to up to this day) and Shinra-Bansho with their 24/7 music livestream I used to boot into whenever I had some work to do or wanted some chill music for study. Shinra was also the first group to make me feel stuff (mostly a couple days of getting messed up and sad) after watching the music video for Junjo Arumeria (even to this day I find it hard to get back watching the PV without having that feeling of empty stomach like when feeling strong emotions, despite still listening to the song). It was very recent that I had watched a version of Caramelldansen featuring the cast from Immaterian and Missing Power. That one girls with grey hair, sword and floating phantom that I would go about like "who is this", would soon become Youmu Konpaku, my favorite character from the series - quite a quick evolution, but one influenced by reading the official materials available on the wiki, as well as listening to the original music themes associated to her.
Are there things to make you like a series you fell in love with less?
Until the end of December, everything seemed to be going wonderful. I started discovering the fanart, music groups and official works (at the time I was reading Bohemian Archive), as well as joining the Discord community, until disaster struck, things that gave me a rather whole image about the community and its content. During one read on TVtropes listing Touhou fan animations on December 31st, there has been one name the struck me: Koishi Komeiji's Heart-Throbbing Adventure. Not knowing what it was about, I started reading the synopsis. 5 minutes later, I was shocked someone could create such a cruel, gory and brutal piece of media on what seemed like a cute series. When asking a few fellows what's with this series, they told me this is how Touhou is supposed to be depicted as such. It has left me messed up for a while, and only months later would I get some more info on the context thanks to my spring threads on this subreddit. Combined to listening + reading the story for Dolls in Pseudo Paradise, it has become clear Gensokyo would be a horrible place to live in, especially if you are an outsider who got spirited away. I started imaging that if that ever happened to me, I would have just started crying and wishing for a quick death at how much my vision of the Touhou universe got ruined.
Trying to find answers to confusions and misconceptions
Until mid-spring, things started getting back on track, and I regained more of my positive view on Touhou. Early into 2021 I started watching the fan-made anime Memories of Phantasm, which unfortunately I did not manage to finish, getting stuck at Episode 8. At the same time I also started trying to play Perfect Cherry Blossom as my first Touhou game (even now, I still suck at that game, even on Easy Mode), and wanted to read more of the official materials available. But, just like before, another trip to TVtropes has ended up giving me a few more days of negativity about Gensokyo after reading the "Nightmare Fuel" section of their Touhou article, which further ruined my view on the fictional universe and lead to these two threads: one on trying to enjoy this series, as well as one about character flanderizations. Anyway, the second blow, combined with the original KKHTA blow, gave me two extremely conflicting images about Touhou - one fanon (+ apparently canon according to TVtropes) that was showing Gensokyo as grimdark, an another one represented by other bits of fanon (+ some canon too) that seemed rather chill and nice (at the time, I was also watching the Touhou M1 Grand Prix series, which I was having lots of fun). In the end, it seems like I have focused more on the nicer aspects of the series, or just those that made me feel happy and relaxed - it was in the days when I was preparing for the Baccalaureate, so I was looking for something nice to keep my morale high and not depress me even further.
In May 2021, Touhou Lost Word released its global version. Despite never having played a Gacha game before, I got curious to play it, especially since I knew I could get a Touhou fan-game easy to access and carry with me anywhere I go. Despite it turning into a grind kind of game, quite repetitive at moments, I still play it even up to this day, and still wait for some more things to be added just to know I achieved my objectives and maybe put it to rest eventually.
Ever since the beginning of the summer, there has been nothing new or worth noting besides starting to play Lost Word. I kept on drawing, albeit with long breaks between drawings, and listened to more of both official and doujin music - most recently listening to Changeability of Strange Dream and Neo-traditionalism in Japan, while also keeping in touch with the newly released PVs from Akatsuki Records.
Getting back to better times
In late July, considering I have gained enough knowledge, I have done my first character sorter. In most of the places, I had at least some basic knowledge about that character. Where I did not have enough or the fanon had a stronger imprint, I supplemented with fanon material. Overall, the idea was to see how much and what sort of impact did a character leave on me with the exposure I got to them up to that point. My first top 10 contained Youmu, Eiki, Raiko, Mayumi, Akyuu, Yuuka, Junko, Maribel, Iku and Hecatia as part of top 10, sorter with which I have gone until the end up February 2022.
Overall, after more than a year of being in this fandom, I think there are multiple shades of it. One side, you have all the cool fan art, music remixes, fan-made and official materials as a whole, as well as a lot of nice people that you can have a chill conversation with. On the other hand, there are bad apples too. Not too many, but they still exist. And if you bother too much with them, will just end up losing the enjoyment of the series. To me, Touhou has been a way of getting more easily over a rough part of my life (ending high school and an entire era of my life, the Baccalaureate exams and applying for college + college life), as well as one that strengthened my friendship with one of my best friends, since both of us had one more common topic to discuss about and share our passion for art, music and other works. Last but not least, Touhou has also been a source of inspiration for me to get better at drawing, especially since I wanted to depict my favourite characters in a better manner than I used to before.
Post-scriptum instead of ending...
This thread was initially written as a Reddit post in early November last year. Since that moment, many things have happened. I got to see my first popularity poll in October, ended the year with more music to listen to, then noticed the sudden surge in Touhou shitposting on the English side of the fandom.
1) The THwiki popularity poll 2021 (October 2021) - this has been quite an interesting thing, to say the least. Since I was not yet fully sure what to vote for in terms of music, game or print works, I could only contribute with vites in regards to the characters. It was quite a surprise to see Youmu winning for a second time in a row (at the time she was my favorite character, so I was not very bothered). It was funny to see everyone going crazy over the idea the votes have been frauded, and just patiently waited for the renumber to see who actually got in first. It is not like ost of my picks scored way below Number 30, but I was fine with it nonetheless. I was also impressed about the music picks. Idolatrize World - Entrusting the World to Idols getting second spot on the music section was a pleasant surprise to be sure, knowing what songs usually get the fist spots there. Now I really wanna see what will happen in 2022...
2) New music in my playlist (November 2021 - ongoing) - as the year drew to a close, I started to find more and more interesting music. I rediscovered Shibayan Records after more than a year (they were one of the first groups I listened. without knowing at the time though who they were) thanks to the "Myon saga" of songs. At the same time, Akatsuki Records first got Black Mirror on the Wall in October, followed by the release of the album Coooonsultant! in late December, together with two adorable PVs - best Christmas gift I could ask for. Meanwhile, IRON ATTACK has been another interesting pick in terms of music, as well as Komeiji Records with their Elegant Ice Maiden. I wonder what will come next in terms of finding interesting bands.
3) The rise of English Touhou shitposting (January - ongoing) - it all started with a singe video in the first days of January 2022. Signs of a rise in shitpost content became real since the spring of 2021, especially with Pearldrop starting to post daily his voiced memes. It started a "Touhou fans be like" title from one XE3G weeb going with a simple and easy to replicate, but catchy formula: "I want mommy / I want milk / I want to be held / I want to be comforted / And if you don't give me any of these / I will ruin your life". These words seem to have change the face of the Western (predominantly USA and Western Europe) kind of Touhou content forever, with effects visible up to this day. The format spread, started to get milked by anyone who wanted to make a quick video and get thousands of views in hours, and the meme diluted quickly. The first few were fine, but after a while everything became too repetitive. When the "mommy format" seemed to have lost its steam, it was replaced by the "x (Touhou) character fans be like", which lasts up to this day. Many have played it as if they were doing this kind of content purely for some views, after which they were complaining in a community post about not liking they have to do this content, since low effort shitposting brought them more views than high(er) effort content. XE3G himself made such a "confession" saying he is done with this kind of content. However, what a shock, few days later, along with numerous and regular posts of being all "thirsty" for Reisen, he got back to the content he swore he hated the most. All through February, this made me feel quite a bit frustrated, especially when comparing what content the Japanese part of the fandom creates compared to the Western counterpart (I have expressed it all in a very harsh manner at the time, and that text will come here too, even if a bit watered down in terms of wording). I thought the West is ost, without any chance for quality content, but from time to time, you still find that little bits of actually good content, even if it is not as visible. Many of the names that remarked themselves in the shitpost era seem to have disappeared. forgotten into the mass of other new creators that did the same thing or with channels that disappeared from radar. However, you can still find this sort of stuff recommended on a daily basis, be it that you watch it or not.
3.5) mIntermission: inusT released Eternal Night - Part 1 (22 Janury 2022) - after two years of work and a lot of hype, we got an awesome animation recreating the Reimu vs Marisa stage 4 duel from Imperishable Night. It is an awesome, quite intense animation, which was worth all the wait. To make it even better, he even teased the content of Par 2, which seems to be just as good as this one, a bit of content we did not manage to get in the original game.
4) Discussions about artistic liberty in Touhou art (mid March - ongoing) - this one will also get its own separate thread at some point. Most recent thing that caught my experience as a Touhou fan has been a discussion about what some people may see as too much in terms of liberties taken. Long story short: Brazilian Twitter female artist Linmie drew Reimu as brown/tanned. Someone asked in a rude way why Reimu was represented with that skin color, despite Linmie always doing that artistic option for Reimu. In typical Twitter fashion, things went wild, with people arguing over things (more on that when the actual thread will come out). That made me think a little: how much can you take in terms of freedom, and what people simply find unacceptable? Like there are things people are perfectly fine with, while others that will cause backlash.
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