Any hot takes/shitty takes about Touhou songs, (principally) official songs or circle rearrangements?

[kanedafanatic]

Whats cracking big dawgs, #1 third-gen touhou king of haters here back at it with an another thread made out of boredom. I've been kidnapped by Maribel and Renko, and somehow my SIM-less cellphone has access to some nearby Wi-Fi inside their crib. It's dark out there, and I'm handcuffed to a fancy queen-sized bed. Don't know why, hopefully it's not because I said Hifuu doesn't live up to the hype and Dolls in Pseudo Paradise is better.

Shitty-ass intro, and half-serious thread coming right up. I was scrolling down my YouTube page, then I saw this video talking about Pure Furies ~ Whereabouts of the Heart and how it was the "saddest" boss theme of the series. Other than myself not remembering the video title word-by-word and hopefully not putting words inside a stranger's mouth: it matters none as I gave a listen again. Before, my opinion was "Overrated song from a barely fleshed-out and overrated character". It transformed into "I don't like it but I can understand why it has a huge following. It's just that ZUN's music style no longer stands out to me in this era, and Junko is overrated as always."

So this thread idea flashed in my mind: do any of you have songs that sounds deceiving, that punches over it's weight? Songs that don't pass your standards, or stands out for a negative reason? Even pure, straight ass from a rearrangement circle, or a genre that just doesn't click with you? I want to hear what y'all have to say (and I want to hear y'all complain like entitled children for my entertainment.)

I'll begin first: other than saying DiPP > Hifuu, Emotional Skyscraper ~ Cosmic Mind suffer from that same issue too. It doesn't stand out to my ears. This time, I don't hate Byakuren, just that it does not suit her. I feel like ZUN focused on "let's make a cool-sounding final boss song", but forgot that this song has to embody the character along with it. The sound has an epic feel to it, it's fast-paced, it goes high in it's octaves and it's got a catchy hook: on paper, it hits. However, it doesn't display this dynamic between a hypocritical saint who has to appease between two "enemy" species just so her fear of death can be controlled. The song lacks identity and as is: I do not picture Byakuren when listening it (unless that was the purpose? <-- Dummy Dumbfuck over here.)

Now, I won't deny: UFO kinda stands as a weird spot: I feel like ZUN didn't managed to stand out with the boss songs but the stage songs? Definitely standing high: when I jam Rural Makai City Esoteria or any stage song, I groove to it. Kogasa's theme doesn't sound too bad, to be fair: she's the exception.

(imagine I wrote a transition so that it's any of y'alls turn. There you go.)

 

[TarosTheVoid]

I think PCBs soundtrack is overrated personally, albeit I dislike PoFV as a soundtrack more, due to the shift from IN (One of my favorite soundtracks right next to SA) to PoFVs instruments (it's polished in MoF, then perfected in SA)

I'm sure PCB have their fans, I don't mean to get those enjoyers upset but I also don't enjoy going through it's soundtrack

I'll say I'm not a SA diehard, but I love that soundtrack alot, if someone said it's the best soundtrack in Touhou ever, I won't argue against it

 

[YumeChud97]

IOSYS is overrated and is below mediocre

Demetori is overrated bad as well

Not sure wheter next one would be considered hot take for Touhou fans, but for undertale/deltarune fans it for sure is
UT/DT OSTs are extremaly far to be as good Touhou OSTs, let alone being better

 

[erlking]

Type shit that will have me crucified.

Although ZUN's compositions are beautiful, I feel like Touhou scores are overrated (for the most part) and some arranged versions sound WAY better and do way more justice than official releases.
Demetori's takes on Eastern Dream being the reason I love the song so much, despite the official release not being that good (pretty much like Perfect Cell's Theme lmao.)

 

[kanedafanatic]

Type shit that will have me crucified.

Although ZUN's compositions are beautiful, I feel like Touhou scores are overrated (for the most part) and some arranged versions sound WAY better and do way more justice than official releases.
Demetori's takes on Eastern Dream being the reason I love the song so much, despite the official release not being that good (pretty much like Perfect Cell's Theme lmao.)

Sometimes it do be balanced. Some official scores sound fine as is, and some rearrangements sounds better.

What I will say though is that I still haven't found a rearrangement circle worth listening.

 

[kanedafanatic]

I think PCBs soundtrack is overrated personally, albeit I dislike PoFV as a soundtrack more, due to the shift from IN (One of my favorite soundtracks right next to SA) to PoFVs instruments (it's polished in MoF, then perfected in SA)

I'll say I'm not a SA diehard, but I love that soundtrack alot, if someone said it's the best soundtrack in Touhou ever, I won't argue against

Won't deny that even myself, there's only like a handful of songs I only listen to in PCB's soundtrack. Similar issue like with UFO, the stage songs bangs more than the boss ones but only a lesser extent. As for the SC-88Pro variant of the PCB soundtrack: you could already tell this sound module of his dated back from 1997, some instruments makes a good song sound really whack (The Capital City of Flowers in The Sky; case and point).

SA though? I'm a contrarian by nature but, putting aside the popularity both the game and it's cast has: I don't particularly disagree. There are some pretty good jams in there, stage and bosses alike. I'm not listening for the instruments, rather that SA's soundtrack feels much more lively and colorful, each song still feels unique at least up until the sixth stage (Extra stage/boss included.)

What I will say though is that, remove the numerous rearrangement that ZUN did with PoFV and keep the few unique compositions: I like those. The hidden MIDI variants however, they really do suck, there's no reason to defend those. Some good instruments there but, not worth listening unless you're curious about it.

 

[YuyuFumo]

I'll say I'm not a SA diehard, but I love that soundtrack alot, if someone said it's the best soundtrack in Touhou ever, I won't argue against it

Well that's good because it is the best Touhou soundtrack. All the songs hit, and not a single one is forgettable filler that even the best of albums occasionally have. Green-Eyed Jealousy, Walking the Streets of a Former Hell, Satori Maiden's 3rd Eye, Lullaby of a Deserted Hell, Last Remote, fucking Nuclear Fusion, there's so much winning this OST does alongside the rest of the game.

I'm sure PCB have their fans, I don't mean to get those enjoyers upset but I also don't enjoy going through it's soundtrack

Also agree on that, PCB is pretty underwhelming. It hits really hard with Necrofantasy/Necrofantasia, Girl Who Played with People's Shapes, and Border of Life, but the rest of the tracks range from mid to downright forgettable.

I've mentioned it before, but I find Septette for the Dead Princess to be the most overrated final boss theme alongside Pure Furies. It's still a pleasant listen, but there's nothing about it that strikes any strong emotions or sense of 'fuck yeah!' that I get from other themes like Border of Life or Kobito of the Shining Needle. I do find that the New Classic remix of the track improved upon the original by incorporating more instruments for a greater sense of grandiosity, but I think, compositionally, it still falls short of what people praise it for.

 

[Spongelash]

IOSYS is overrated and is below mediocre

I've heard this before, and I can understand calling it overrated, but I feel like their sounds are too unique to call them "below mediocre." I think that they are polarizing enough that you can hate their songs or love their songs, but I think that they do something pretty special that most other arrangers do not, at least not to their level of quality.

A lot of their popularity is because of the age of their songs and the context of when they released but I think that unique sound is a big part of it. I also think that IOSYS has themselves a lot of underrated songs. For example, you might not like Cirno's Math Class, but what about the punk cover? I like the framing, unrelenting momentum, and instrumentals of Wakasagihime's 100 Sushi Toppings Challenge.

I think PCBs soundtrack is overrated personally, albeit I dislike PoFV as a soundtrack more, due to the shift from IN (One of my favorite soundtracks right next to SA) to PoFVs instruments (it's polished in MoF, then perfected in SA)

Aw, I actually adore PCBs soundtrack. I like IN's too, but the only really memorable songs are near the end for me, like Lunatic Princess, or Reisen's stage and boss theme. I guess I just really like PCBs kind of lofty light Japanese sounds. That's a game's soundtrack that really immerses me into its setting all the way through.

I agree that PoFV songs kind of get a negative reaction from me, but to be fair that might just be from how frustrating it was 1CC that game for me that the later stages started to train an immediate negative feeling from the music alone

 

[TarosTheVoid]

Well that's good because it is the best Touhou soundtrack. All the songs hit, and not a single one is forgettable filler that even the best of albums occasionally have. Green-Eyed Jealousy, Walking the Streets of a Former Hell, Satori Maiden's 3rd Eye, Lullaby of a Deserted Hell, Last Remote, fucking Nuclear Fusion, there's so much winning this OST does alongside the rest of the game.

Why I really enjoy SA soundtrack is that, this soundtrack feels like it tells a story without saying anything, it has some of the best atmosphere and texture within the series, Stage 2 I always found moreso a huge standout within the soundtrack and I will say Extra stage feels like the ultimate realization of this whole soundtrack

I do think ironically, all the tracks being so great but Nuclear Fusion tends to be the weakest within SA (it's like a 9/10 in the sea of 10/10s for me) given that a lot of the tracks stand so strong amongst each other

Also agree on that, PCB is pretty underwhelming. It hits really hard with Necrofantasy/Necrofantasia, Girl Who Played with People's Shapes, and Border of Life, but the rest of the tracks range from mid to downright forgettable.

I've mentioned it before, but I find Septette for the Dead Princess to be the most overrated final boss theme alongside Pure Furies. It's still a pleasant listen, but there's nothing about it that strikes any strong emotions or sense of 'fuck yeah!' that I get from other themes like Border of Life or Kobito of the Shining Needle. I do find that the New Classic remix of the track improved upon the original by incorporating more instruments for a greater sense of grandiosity, but I think, compositionally, it still falls short of what people praise it for.

Like I've said earlier, the mixing of PCB feels weak, and ironically the characters based on using instruments ended up having one of my lesser favorite themes within that game, I like the stage theme a lot more as the Prismrivers theme puts me to sleep (I'm pretty sure this has its defenders but I digress)

When it comes to EoSD, it's probably the soundtrack I listen to or most exposed to the most, it has its strengths and weaknesses, while I do find someone saying Septette being the most overrated final boss theme (Pure Furies I'll actually agree with more over Septette, I actually have more of a disdain of the OG UN Owen is Her as the music actually does irritate me I won't lie to you) I just always felt like EoSD soundtrack is moreso the bread and butter, or old but gold favorites of mine, maybe not Cirno boss theme I could live without that one

I'm not totally on board with Border of Life but it is an iconic Touhou theme, I'd probably have to go through all the stage 6 themes at some point and judge them again

 

[TarosTheVoid]

Won't deny that even myself, there's only like a handful of songs I only listen to in PCB's soundtrack. Similar issue like with UFO, the stage songs bangs more than the boss ones but only a lesser extent. As for the SC-88Pro variant of the PCB soundtrack: you could already tell this sound module of his dated back from 1997, some instruments makes a good song sound really whack (The Capital City of Flowers in The Sky; case and point).

SA though? I'm a contrarian by nature but, putting aside the popularity both the game and it's cast has: I don't particularly disagree. There are some pretty good jams in there, stage and bosses alike. I'm not listening for the instruments, rather that SA's soundtrack feels much more lively and colorful, each song still feels unique at least up until the sixth stage (Extra stage/boss included.)

What I will say though is that, remove the numerous rearrangement that ZUN did with PoFV and keep the few unique compositions: I like those. The hidden MIDI variants however, they really do suck, there's no reason to defend those. Some good instruments there but, not worth listening unless you're curious about it.

I think for PoFV it's heavily the shift from IN which I consider a top 3 Touhou soundtrack (I'm also heavily biased on the cast and stuff within that game, so it does hurt in places for my expectations) so it has some anti bias

Not the worst soundtrack of Touhou I've heard, but it's moreso trying to get it's footing, I just don't find most themes enjoyable to sit through even if there may be a theme that's better than the original here or there (Flowering Night is genuinely so overrated, I'm way more of a Luna Dial enjoyer due to the mysterious atmosphere and tension, tho I understand that theme is meant to serve a different purpose, I dunno, Luna Dial gives me some hype to Sakuyas boss fight and maintains her aura)

But yeah, the reason why I tend to say I'm not a diehard for SA is mainly it's cast (I'm looking at you Komeijis, I find other characters way more interesting than how overexposed they are) and I never particularly enjoyed the bomb mechanic systems in MoF and SA, on top of SAs awkwardly designed shots, but I'll never slander the soundtrack of SA, it genuinely made me feel emotional throughout the whole journey so I always respect the game in its highest points

 

[YumeChud97]

but I think that they do something pretty special that most other arrangers do not, at least not to their level of quality.

What do you mean by "at least not to their level of quality"?

 

[Spongelash]

What do you mean by "at least not to their level of quality"?

Not to their level of effort and skill. It's sort of an amorphous descriptor, of course. If you have counter-examples of arrangers who also capture that goofy character-scenario type of music, or alternatively better Touhou Denpa artists, I'd be really curious to compare and contrast quality with you. Describing quality is much easier when we use points of reference in order to make objective statements about differences. The word is general enough that any amount of specificity is going to be tainted with subjectivity, of course, but we could probably come to some general agreements.

And that general idea is what I am asserting in that quote. I have arrangers who I think make better Touhou music, but not within that genre or with the same kind of narrative focus.

 

[YuyuFumo]

I actually have more of a disdain of the OG UN Owen is Her as the music actually does irritate me I won't lie to you

Agreed, UN Owen Was Her? is one of my least favorite extra boss themes. I can give it points for matching the cutesy chaotic vibe of Flandre, but I can only listen to it for so long before going crazy.

I'd probably have to go through all the stage 6 themes at some point and judge them again

Suppose I'll contribute some more to the discussion with my current final boss theme rankings:

1) Kobito of the Shining Needle ~ Little Princess
2) Bloom Nobly, Ink Black Cherry Blossom ~ Border of Life (+Reprisal)
3) Eastern Judgment in the Sixtieth Year ~ Fate of Sixty Years
4) Emotional Skyscraper ~ Cosmic Mind
5) Solar Sect of Mystic Wisdom ~ Nuclear Fusion
6) Flight of the Bamboo Cutter ~ Lunatic Princess
7) Complete Darkness
8) The Venerable Ancient Battle Field ~ Suwa Foughten Field
9) Strawberry Crisis!
10) Septette for the Dead Princess
11) Pure Furies ~ Whereabouts of the Heart
12) Gensokyo Millennium ~ History of the Moon
13) Now, Until the Moment You Die (+We Shall Die Together)
14) Shoutoku Legend ~ True Administrator
15) Swordsman from a Distant Star

I'm a little biased towards Border of Life with it being Yuyu's theme, but that ranking does include the additional reprise that plays during Resurrection Butterfly. If it wasn't for that, it'd probably be #4 or #5 on the list. I haven't played enough of Lotus Land Story or Mystic Square to properly judge their themes, and almost all of the 3rd generation final boss themes are pretty forgettable.

 

[kanedafanatic]

Seeing y'alls responses made me think of something. Nothing really special, something I more-or-less understand myself but:

I don't have a particular favorite Touhou soundtrack. I know that it's not a problem saying that I don't have one, rather that I can't agree on any. There are soundtracks that excels in one department, some others do in an another, but they don't hit in every department. I don't see myself saying "this game's soundtrack is better or this one is" because none does it. I sound mega stupid and it's probably the case but, what are y'all looking for in a composition made by ZUN, rearrangement or not? There are songs that emotion-wise are amazing (looking at you, The Fantastic Legend of Tohno, localization massacred your name) but, what is it? The ZUNpet? Emotion? Rhythm? Intensity? What exactly?

 

[YumeChud97]

Not to their level of effort and skill. It's sort of an amorphous descriptor, of course. If you have counter-examples of arrangers who also capture that goofy character-scenario type of music, or alternatively better Touhou Denpa artists, I'd be really curious to compare and contrast quality with you. Describing quality is much easier when we use points of reference in order to make objective statements about differences. The word is general enough that any amount of specificity is going to be tainted with subjectivity, of course, but we could probably come to some general agreements.

And that general idea is what I am asserting in that quote. I have arrangers who I think make better Touhou music, but not within that genre or with the same kind of narrative focus.

I'd say BeatMario but i only know one song "Help me, ERINNNNNN!!"

 

[Spongelash]

I'd say BeatMario but i only know one song "Help me, ERINNNNNN!!"

So funnily enough, Maron is credited as working on that arrangement along with BeatMario (the new one, at least). Maron is actually part of IOSYS. So I find it pretty ironic that in looking to suggest a song that is better than IOSYS' fare you picked one that was arranged by an IOSYS composer, haha.

Like, sure, Help me, or INTERNET SURVIVOR, or straight up Cirno's Perfect Math Academy sounds like IOSYS, but all of this is arranged by an IOSYS creator.

So when you say that IOSYS is "below mediocre," but your example of a song that you like is basically an IOSYS arrangement, are you really being fair? I 100% understand if you like BeatMario's lyric writing and voice better than the singers and writers that are a part of IOSYS, but is the sound of Help Me really that far divorced from what IOSYS puts out?

And you call IOSYS "overrated," but the PMV for Help Me has more views than anything IOSYS has put out on YouTube, and it has been out for a fraction of the time of their really old works. If you think Help Me is the better song, then it would look to me that recognition-wise things are actually already working out how you would think they should.

Personally, I find Help Me and IOSYS' works to be pretty closely related, so I guess I would be curious if you could explain more why you like one but not the other.

 

[YumeChud97]

So funnily enough, Maron is credited as working on that arrangement along with BeatMario (the new one, at least). Maron is actually part of IOSYS. So I find it pretty ironic that in looking to suggest a song that is better than IOSYS' fare you picked one that was arranged by an IOSYS composer, haha.

Like, sure, Help me, or INTERNET SURVIVOR, or straight up Cirno's Perfect Math Academy sounds like IOSYS, but all of this is arranged by an IOSYS creator.

So when you say that IOSYS is "below mediocre," but your example of a song that you like is basically an IOSYS arrangement, are you really being fair? I 100% understand if you like BeatMario's lyric writing and voice better than the singers and writers that are a part of IOSYS, but is the sound of Help Me really that far divorced from what IOSYS puts out?

And you call IOSYS "overrated," but the PMV for Help Me has more views than anything IOSYS has put out on YouTube, and it has been out for a fraction of the time of their really old works. If you think Help Me is the better song, then it would look to me that recognition-wise things are actually already working out how you would think they should.

Personally, I find Help Me and IOSYS' works to be pretty closely related, so I guess I would be curious if you could explain more why you like one but not the other.

I find Help me ERIN to sound somewhat different from other IOSYS songs, and im talking about IOSYS in general, like i find Help me ERIN to be better than every song of IOSYS, besides it's just one member of IOSYS that was credited so

and im calling IOSYS overrated because i've seen much more overpraising of the songs, as well as IOSYS itself, yet i have never seen any talk of any arrangement artist outside this site besides someone trash talking about Akatsuki Records on tiktok

 

[Spongelash]

I find Help me ERIN to sound somewhat different from other IOSYS songs, and im talking about IOSYS in general, like i find Help me ERIN to be better than every song of IOSYS, besides it's just one member of IOSYS that was credited so

and im calling IOSYS overrated because i've seen much more overpraising of the songs, as well as IOSYS itself, yet i have never seen any talk of any arrangement artist outside this site besides someone trash talking about Akatsuki Records on tiktok

Love Akatsuki. Stack does great stuff with her voice. They are another circle that people are way too hard on.

IOSYS gets a lot of recognition because they got into that game early with a lot of good quality PMVs. You have a lot of people who barely know Touhou that knew IOSYS songs because that wasn't the norm at the time and was pretty exceptional. That's why you'll find a ton of IOSYS stuff where you won't find other Touhou talk; IOSYS sort of transcended Touhou and become more of an internet phenomenon in general.

And I really think that you've got to give them credit for that. I feel like people judge legacy IOSYS against the circles of today without considering the context in which IOSYS grew big. More than just being a Touhou circle, IOSYS is sort of a part of an internet legacy.

Honestly, a lot of IOSYS stuff really can't be replaced by BeatMario tracks. Convictor Yamaxanadu!, Hatate's Bakkoi Murder Case, even a classic like Marisa Stole the Precious Thing occupy very different spaces than most of his work in my opinion.

So personally I think that you are underappreciating their work, and that their place in the zeitgeist is well-deserved due to their age, great pmvs, and unique and memorable tracks. Help Me is great, of course, but I don't find it that far ahead the likes of Cirno's Perfect Math Class or Ghetto Patrol and otherwise I think that plenty of IOSYS works occupy a very different soundscape than what you see more regularly in a Touhou circle.

That's all that I really have to say about them. What I would leave you with is that perhaps your frustration at a lack of discussion over other arrangers that you like has clouded your vision a bit on what IOSYS has managed to do with their music. In general I think that you are being overly harsh on them.

(Also, it's pretty usual for a song to only have one or two arrangers. So I wouldn't say that having "one member" of IOSYS is a small thing )

 

[Spongelash]

Seeing y'alls responses made me think of something. Nothing really special, something I more-or-less understand myself but:

I don't have a particular favorite Touhou soundtrack. I know that it's not a problem saying that I don't have one, rather that I can't agree on any. There are soundtracks that excels in one department, some others do in an another, but they don't hit in every department. I don't see myself saying "this game's soundtrack is better or this one is" because none does it. I sound mega stupid and it's probably the case but, what are y'all looking for in a composition made by ZUN, rearrangement or not? There are songs that emotion-wise are amazing (looking at you, The Fantastic Legend of Tohno, localization massacred your name) but, what is it? The ZUNpet? Emotion? Rhythm? Intensity? What exactly?

Personally, it is how well each soundtrack collectively fits to its theme and immerses me in the setting of that particular Touhou game. PCB has very lofty Asian sounds, IN is deeper and more serious which fits the feeling of rushing against the clock, MoF sort of gets darker as you go deeper into the forest, then more light as you rise up the mountain and more mysterious and serious as you approach the shrine. There's elements of it in all the soundtracks I've experienced to far and I feel like you can group up the songs pretty nicely even if you didn't know what soundtrack they came from.

So I enjoy looking at the soundtracks not just as each individual song, but as how the songs work as a whole to tell the narrative of the journey you go through on the game. As is, I think that PCB and IN do this best with MoF probably being in a middle category and EoSD probably being the weakest in this sense. PoFV is a weird one because the sounds of the songs don't really fit together but the pacing and scale of each song really fits the wild matches of that game.

When it comes to an individual song that's going to be even more subjective, of course. Personally I like more striking melodies and unique instruments. I really like when a song has a domineering clear throughline. I also find that I really like it when Zun uses choir synths, haha. The combinations of unique synths and pseudo-choir in Kanako's theme with that beep-y melody that is shared with the game over music or Lunatic Princess with it's beginning with the funky choir synths and the melody that really starts to run away with itself or the way that Border of Life starts out ethereally and then picks up the pace and tone in such a serious manner, and the way that this all boosts the impact of the final spell version (with more choir synths, lol).

But, see, it's true that I'm never going to be as driven about Deep Mountain or by Night Bird as I am about one of the aforementioned songs, but doesn't Deep Mountain really make you feel like your setting off on a grand adventure, doesn't Night Bird really make it sound like I'm on a dire late night mission and running out of time?

And in that way some songs work great to listen to all on their own, and the good songs are elevated by their position in the story and how they drive the narrative.

That's what I keep my eye out for in Touhou works.