Spicy Touhou takes

[buskerdog]

...What?

I sort of understand what you're getting at, but some of this doesn't sound worded that well.

Admittedly not my clearest explanation, but I'll try breaking it down:

• "look like generic anime" - just that, artwork of characters in most fanworks - whether it be games, music PVs, or just standalone art - is drawn in an almost paint-by-numbers replication of the anime or manga style (which I don't have a problem with, but it's very unoriginal).
  
• "seeing as it's what the official material does" - manga style of artwork is (understandably) used in the Touhou manga, as well as in the fighting games; and ZUN art is clearly inspired by the anime look with characteristics like the large eyes and light skin (the resemblance is especially clear in PC-98 art imo).
  
• "everything that isn't in anime style still use white skin for all the characters anyway" - fanart in a more painterly style or more realistically proportioned still makes the characters look like westerners.
  
• "why do I never see Touhou characters that look Asian?" - skin tone, eye shape etc; look I'm not someone who combs through dozens of Touhou fanarts every day, but I have yet to see an image circulate past me where a Touhou character looks like a Japanese person.
  

By the way I didn't mean to challenge your point of view about name pronunciation at all, just express my own.

 

[OkuuFallout]

• "why do I never see Touhou characters that look Asian?" - skin tone, eye shape etc; look I'm not someone who combs through dozens of Touhou fanarts every day, but I have yet to see an image circulate past me where a Touhou character looks like a Japanese person.
  

I've seen a character (Okuu) drawn more Asian-like. However, the eyes were more akin to a half-Asian half-Caucasian, and even then it's not consistent (since it's actually AI). The only two issues I have with this user is that 6 out of their 24 artworks are NSFW. The other thing is that it's not hand drawn, it's through NovelAI. Nonetheless, I was taken aback by the way the eyes were, since I've never seen it like that before.

WARNING!! This artist has mostly NSFW content. Be warned.

Spoiler

https://www.pixiv.net/en/users/11348735 

 

[Eulogous]

By the way I didn't mean to challenge your point of view about name pronunciation at all, just express my own.

Didn't take it as a challenge, just explaining why I came to the conclusion that I did with my take for clarity's sake. My reply might have come off as a bit aggressive, but I didn't intend to be.

"why do I never see Touhou characters that look Asian?" - skin tone, eye shape etc; look I'm not someone who combs through dozens of Touhou fanarts every day, but I have yet to see an image circulate past me where a Touhou character looks like a Japanese person.

The most popular characters that get some of the highest fanart coverage tend to be from EoSD, with a cast that is European (SDM was transported from the Outside World) save for a Chinese gatekeeper. Fairies are nature spirits, so depicting them as any real race seems weird. The humanoid Youkai throughout the series we see have presumably chosen their form, so there's a case there. Human villagers and most humans in general would definitely be Japanese, though.

I'm not particularly very conscious of this sort of thing, since I treat Touhou as an escapism medium first and foremost. If I had to think of an interpretation I'd like to see, it'd be Letty looking more like a Yuki-Onna, with a more traditional style of attire, and the deathly snow-like complexion like in her inspiration. Not the biggest fan of her canon outfit, and I just want more things with Letty to exist. 

 

[CountVonNumenor]

I was supposed to answer this about a couple weeks ago. Hooo boy...

• Inconsistent Info
  
  
  
  I think the Human Village has it the worst in this regard. Are Youkai allowed to roam freely as long as they don't cause trouble? PMiSS suggests it's that way, but in a lot of other Print Works it feels like if a Youkai is even believed to be spotted, the entire village would be in uproar and moral panic ensues. Also, they may be Moon Rabbits, but it is stated both Ringo and Seiren have dango stands they run in the village and depicts them without disguises and everything seems just fine (source: Alternate Facts in Eastern Utopia).
  

PMiSS's Human Village Excerpt: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Human_Village​

This is something I have noticed as well. ZUN seems to be alright when it comes to writing the plot for a game. However, when the scale gets greater and in a series spanning for many years, problems start occurring. Just like you pointed out, the Human Village is a very goo example of that. I would have also talked about the lack of a unified vision in the depiction of the characters due to a great variety of artists employed to draw the 2hus, each with their own unique style, but I think I have already mentioned that in the opening post of this thread. Also yeah, Seiran and Ringo seem to be like a sore thumb in that whole "youkai come to the Village undercover" thing. 

And now that you mentioned Perfect Memento, ZUN WHERE IS THE THIRD VOLUME OF THE GENSOKYO CHRONICLE? WE HAVEN'T HAD A NEW ONE SINCE SYMPOSIUM OF POST-MYSTICISM, 10 YEARS AGO!

Inconsistent Info Pt.2

• Another one I remember is it being stated (I believe in Symposium of Post-mysticism) that beings like Kanako are resistant against possessions from vengeful spirits, however in  Cheating Detective Satori, they claim that they are particularly weak against them. Cheating Detective Satori is kind of a dumpster fire in my opinion, like suggesting Mokou is a Youkai from when Mizuchi proclaims in Ch.16 Page 25: "...A Youkai cannot fight a vengeful spirit" then follows up on the next page: "because inside, you're all the same". It feels like the setting and characters are whatever ZUN needs them to be for the story he wants to tell.
  
  
  Then that leads into my next gripe, the fandom excuses. Setting inconsistencies? "Unreliable narrator, of course." Characters acting strange? "Every Print Work is told through the lens of the focal character, so naturally there'd be differences." If everything is supposed to be unreliable, and there is no clear picture of what Gensokyo or its inhabitants are like, why should I care about literally anything? I know ZUN probably forgot a few things over the years, but when the fandom comes up with some profound and artistic reason for it, it comes off as fairly obnoxious to me.
  

As far as I am aware, CDS/FDS is an extreme mess of a manga series. From the Mokou vs Mizuchi fight chapter, all I can remember is the fact Reddit went all over the fact that we basically got the first, on-screen canon depiction of a 2hu basically topless (as Mokou's shirt burnt off, and there is nothing to be spotted underneath it - also she looks to be flat). As for the fans creating much better explanations than the author himself, I really have no words. By now, does ZUN still really care about the series? I am glad he is still making games (therefore it means he still has some interest in Touhou), and I just hope things can only get better from where we are now for as long as it will last. 

The Music isn't as Great as Everyone Says it is

• Probably more like a nuclear take, and I'll say Touhou music as a whole is generally good, but I see people make it out that every song is an amazing masterpiece. To me, there are a lot of forgettable filler tracks, but I know that's just due to my taste ("History of the Moon" and "Nostalgic Blood of the East" are the only IN songs I actually care for, as an example). There are amazing remixes of songs, but I don't count those when forming an opinion towards the original composition. Conversely, a lot of songs I like either get no attention, or lackluster remixes (I actually enjoy a lot of PC-98's compositions despite the painful sound quality). Bonus spicy take: I don't care much for Vocal Remixes or the super high-energy styles or metal, I prefer instrumental music like jazz, traditional, or classical styles.
  

I am not really an expert when it comes to the field of music, but there is just one thing I can say. A lot of songs are rather forgettable to be honest, or just do not stick to my mind. To me, Touhou 16's OST is mostly a blur to me (but to be fair, that game as a whole is mostly a blur for me). At the very best, all I can add here is my list of impressions when it comes to as many songs I could remember from the series. And even there, a lot of the contributions come mostly from fan-made arrangements that I associate with that song, rather than the original theme. 

Spoiler

Alright, time to write this answer. It sure will be interesting...

Short answer: I am not sure what to pick. I never did something like a tier list, and there are a lot I like.

Long answer: Oh boy, bear with me. Buckle up, since this will turn into one hell of a reply, typical for my writing style. Even I will get lost in it. To put it simply, there are quite a lot of songs I like. However, there are still just as many that I have not listened to yet. It's been over one a half years since I got into the fandom, yet there are still quite a lot of songs I need to check out. So instead, I will focus on the main games (and some of the extra materials), plus a bit from the spin-offs if I am familiar to it. I might also leave some notes on each of them, and gonna try keep it short (though most likely I will end up overextending)

PC-98 era

Oh, this era is quite muddy to me in terms of knowledge, and so is the knowledge of music. So I will just focus up on a few that I know a little better. There's like 3-4 of them, so this section will go more quickly. 

• Reincarnation: so the theme for Mima...or at least one of them (how many more does she have through the games?); I have found this song through KARMANATIONS from Akatsuki Records, then I listened to the original. Quite a memorable song
  

• Bad Apple: probably one of, if not the most famous Touhou song; like many people, I found it through the famous MV and and another metal arrangement from RichaadEB, then found the original song; surprisingly good, and for a while I was convinced I liked it even more than the remix
  

• Romantic Children: this was the music theme that introduced Alice in Mystic Square, right? Again, a lovely song, worth listening to 
  

• Judas Kiss: a bit of an odd choice, but I discovered this song through a video from Megapig9001. It sounds very good, and I can agree with him that that MIDI version might sound even better. 
  

Windows era

Alright, for this one, as I am more familiar with, I will go through each of the games, and add both stage and boss battle songs. If I am familiar with the song or want to say something about it, a note will appear next to the mention. I am tempted to write the names of the songs too, but in many cases I may not remember them, despite the song being familiar to me. Games like Touhou 6-7 have the most familiar songs to me, so I do not know how much to write on them, or what to say.


Touhou 6

• stage 1 - quite decent; I like the beat for it, especially at the beginning; feels like a nice transition from PC-98 to a new era
  
• stage 1 boss - another decent song; I guess it fits Rumia very well. a bit childish, but still threatening enough... for a stage 1 boss; I also like the brief orchestral version of it used in Memories of Phantasm for that very 20 seconds of screen time Rumia got in the EoSD arc
  
• stage 2 - Lunate Elf is surprisingly good; not as memorable like other songs, but still good enough for a boss we never even got an official name for
  
• stage 2 boss - Cirno, Cirno, Cirno... well, her song has so many remixes even within the official material, but it sounds cool; also something most likely I got to first through a meme (Cirno's Perfect Math Class)
  
• stage 3 - I am always confusing this one with the actual boss battle theme
  
• stage 3 boss - same as above; I still have a problem in distinguishing which was which between Shanghai Teahouse and Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17
  
• stage 4 - I honestly keep forgetting this song exists (I am sorry, "Koakuma")
  
• stage 4 boss - surprisingly good to vibe too
  
• stage 5 - The Maid and the Pocket Watch of Blood, despite not as famous as the following song, is still quite good; plus, it inspired Bloody Devotion from Stack, so always a plus
  
• stage 5 boss - ah, Lunar Dial; seems to be quite engaging for a stage 5 battle, and Stage 5 in general seems to have quite good songs (might be a pattern or something, together with bosses that somehow become memorable)
  
• stage 6 - I think The Young Descendent of Țepeș is rather forgotten when compared to the other Remilia theme
  
• stage 6 boss - I am no the greatest fan of the Septete for the Dead Princess, but I still like it, especially the piano opening
  
• extra stage
  
• extra stage boss - UN Owen Was Her? hmm... I used to be a fan of this one early on in my days as a fan, but that seems to have faded in time; I still have a bit until I get into the "this song is overrated" area, but I still think there are way better songs that deserve getting first place, especially after years on end this one has been first/second according to the popularity poll
  

Touhou 7 

• intro song - man, I really love Snow or Cherry Petal; whenever I boot that song up, it feels like I am going back to a different age
  
• stage 1 - quite a cute into the the new adventure
  
• stage 1 boss - for a boss character everyone has forgotten about, Letty has quite a good battle theme
  
• stage 2 - decent, good enough for a vibe
  
• stage 2 boss - Chen SPEEEN! (oh wait, was that here or at the mid boss encounter with her?)
  
• stage 3 - surprisingly, I might like the Doll Maker of București more than the actual theme; however, I have a question - out of any possible place on Earth, how did her song title come to reference the capital of Romania? Does Alice have an unknown connection to my lands, or not ZUN knows why he picked it? And to make it even funnier, the name is not written in English (Bucharest), but the actual Romanian spelling 
  
• stage 3 boss - Doll Judgment is another good song; I have first found it through Marisa Stole the Precious Thing
  
• stage 4 - it took me quite a while to associate this song with Lily White; however, after listening to it in Lost Word as the theme for our favorite herald of spring, I got a new appreciation for it
  
• stage 4 boss - Phantom Ensemble is good; I am not sure what to write about it, but I like the song... ZUNpets, I guess?
  
• stage 5 - Ancient Temple... I really like the kind of eerie atmosphere it creates as you get at the stairs of Netherworld; again, a very good setup for what is to come
  
• stage 5 boss - Hiroari Shoots a Strange Bird/Till When? - this title is a bit of a mouthful, and apparently people do not like it so much? to me, it still holds a special place as I really tend to associate this song with Youmu, and I think the Junjo Arumeria arrangement only cemented that even further
  
• stage 6 - another song I really like; there's something interesting about the buildup it creates towards the final boss encounter
  
• stage 6 boss - probably I really do not remember this song as well as the following one
  
• stage 6 boss (2) - wait, Yuyuko revives? this is awesome, but also quite a bit of a dangerous moment if you are a new played and that caught you unaware... oh wait, I mean I like Border of Life
  
• extra stage - at how much stuff there after Stage 6? This will really be confusing, and I forgot a lot despite listening multiple times to the full OST for this game
  
• extra stage boss - hmm, interesting how similar Ran's theme sounds to something that will come soon after...
  
• Phantasm stage - so, this is a remix of Charming Domination, right? 
  
• Phantasm stage boss - yay, Necrofantasia
  

Touhou 8

• stage 1 
  
• stage 1 boss - this is the Wriggle battle song, right? I forgot how this sounds like
  
• stage 2
  
• stage 2 boss - Mystia's theme; had it not been for Shout It Out Loud, most likely I would not have listened to this song
  
• stage 3
  
• stage 3 boss - Plain Asia; honestly, another song I know thanks to Akatsuki Records and Gray Zone; otherwise, I really like the name of the song
  
• stage 4
  
• stage 4 boss - wait, do we even have a Stage 4? Tewi is at Stage 5, so moving on...
  
• stage 5 - Cindarella Cage is a song that sounds quite good; however, I cannot think of it and not imagine the "Tewi Kick" ZUN fell for in one of the demo clips for the game
  
• stage 5 boss - ah, Reisen. I can remember you, your theme, but not the name for it... was it Lunatic Eyes or something" still, nice song
  
• stage 6
  
• stage 6 boss (Kaguya) - good song, and base for "Help me, ERIN!"
  
• stage 6 boss (Eirin) - wait, you have 2 themes? both History of the Moon and Voyage 1970; honestly, two relaxing song to listen to in a summer nigh with clear sky
  
• extra stage
  
• extra stage boss - I like Reach for the Moon, Immortal Smoke; enough said
  

Touhou 9

• Flower Land - I have found this song much later than the character it is associated with; nice theme for Yuuka though
  
• Wind God Girl - good song, fitting for Aya
  
• Higan Retour - quite a good Stage 5 song
  
• Fate of Sixty Years - impressive song, very fitting to someone having the status of Eiki Shiki, Yamaxanadu
   
  

Oh God, I only got to the 10th game. There is still more to go, and will more than likely take me hours to write...
 

Touhou 10

• stage 1
  
• stage 1 boss - good song, nothing more to say
  
• stage 2 
  
• stage 2 boss
  
• stage 3
  
• stage 3 boss
  
• stage 4
  
• stage 4 boss - Mysterious Mountain... so this is the new theme Aya gets; I am still more used to Wind God Girl
  
• stage 5 - recent discovery (thank you fr00sk); I really love the chorus part, especially the ZUNpets chorus part; in short, "I like Touhou 10 Stage 5's theme"
  
• stage 5 boss - not bad, I just don't listen to it so much
  
• stage 6
  
• stage 6 boss - nice theme you got there, Kanako
  
• extra stage
  

extra stage boss - Native Faith has to be one of the first Touhou songs I have discovered (thank you. Kaliningrad General); also Kero ⑨ Destiny

Touhou 11

• stage 1
  
• stage 1 boss
  
• stage 2
  
• stage 2 boss - this is the one Parsee theme I can remember; in short, there is something I like about Green Eyed Jealousy 
  
• stage 3
  
• stage 3 boss 
  
• stage 4 
  
• stage 4 boss - Satori's theme is one of those songs that create some sort eerie feeling, but I still like it nonetheless
  
• stage 5 - I tended to confuse Lullaby of Deserted Hell for the actual theme of Orin; still probably one of my favorite song from SA, especially with some of the arrangements made for it
  
• stage 5 boss - Corpse Voyage/Be of Good Joy! - probably the most recent discovery for me; I like how cheerful it sounds
  
• stage 6 - threatening, good buildup for what you are going to meet down there...
  
• stage 6 boss - Nuclear Fusion is a song I tend to forget every now and then, then I come back and like it again
  
• extra stage - Last Remote; I finally remembered its name, and I like its remix from House Set of Subterranean Animism
  
• extra stage boss - this song more often makes me think of Unconscious Requiem; for another song that always managed to score so high in the popularity poll, I did not manage to get the hype for it (same story about Koishi)
  

Touhou 12

• stage 1
  
• stage 1 boss - what was the theme for Nazrin? I think it was called A Tiny Clever Commander or something, but I forgot how it sounds like
  
• stage 2
  
• stage 2 boss - Kogasa's theme; very cute, rather cheery, and fits her character very well
  
• stage 3
  
• stage 3 boss
  
• stage 4 - I think this is the song I actually managed to remember ans associate with Murasa instead of her actual theme
  
• stage 4 boss
  
• stage 5
  
• stage 5 boss - CURVY LASERS; also a song that feels a bit on the repeating side
  
• stage 6 
  
• stage 6 boss - first time I found Byakuren's theme through the remix from House Set of UFO; from then on, that song stuck to my mind
  
• extra stage 
  
• extra stage boss
  

Touhou 13

• stage 1
  
• stage 1 boss - all I know about this stage is that Yuyuko somehow became a Stage 1 boss (#NeverForget); I don;t know what song she has though
  
• stage 2
  
• stage 2 boss
  
• stage 3 - Kogasa makes her return as a mid boss; did she retain the same song?
  
• stage 3 boss
  
• stage 4 - I like Rigid Paradise; I am quite confused about the Seiga and Yoshika part of the game - where did Desire Drive come in?
  
• stage 4 boss - very much forgot how Old Yuanxian sounds like
  
• stage 5
  
• stage 5 boss
  
• stage 6 
  
• stage 6 boss - I am struggling to remember how True Administrator sounds like, but I forgot...
  
• extra stage 
  
• extra stage boss
  

Touhou 14

• stage 1
  
• stage 1 boss
  
• stage 2
  
• stage 2 boss
  
• stage 3
  
• stage 3 boss
  
• stage 4 
  
• stage 4 boss
  
• stage 5
  
• stage 5 boss - Reverse Ideology, probably one of the few songs I can remember from Touhou 14
  
• stage 6 
  
• stage 6 boss - probably the same thing as with Seija and her theme; there's a segment out of it I like a lot
  
• extra stage 
  
• extra stage boss - Raiko's theme is probably my favorite from the song; it has a lot of energy in it, very fitting to her
  

Touhou 15

• stage 1
  
• stage 1 boss
  
• stage 2
  
• stage 2 boss
  
• stage 3
  
• stage 3 boss
  
• stage 4 
  
• stage 4 boss
  
• stage 5
  
• stage 5 boss - Clownpiece, can you please stop throwing moons at people? That has to be the reason everyone goes lunatic at the sight of America-chan this hell fairy
  
• stage 6 - a charming, almost quiet version of the storm that will soon unleash upon you; I like this song, and I think it creates a interesting sensation just before going against a creature of pure fury 
  
• stage 6 boss -  this is where the storm starts; Junko is angry, and her theme reflects it perfectly
  
• extra stage - I forgot the name of this one, but I like it
  
• extra stage boss - I am quite surprised to have forgotten then name and the way Hecatia's theme sounds like
  

Touhou 16

• stage 1
  
• stage 1 boss
  
• stage 2
  
• stage 2 boss
  
• stage 3
  
• stage 3 boss - had it not been for some English vocals from Lyrica Live, I do not think I would have got to listen to Aunn's theme very soon
  
• stage 4 
  
• stage 4 boss
  
• stage 5
  
• stage 5 boss - it is the CRAZY BACKDROP DANCERS! quite an annoying stage, but I like that song they have; plus that it was turned into something more cheerful by Stack (Mai and Satono really look like cheerleaders at the beginning of their PV from Akatsuki Records)
  
• stage 6 
  
• stage 6 boss - I forgot what are the songs for Okina
  
• extra stage 
  
• extra stage boss
  

Touhou 17

• stage 1
  
• stage 1 boss - I did get to listen to the stage boss themes recently thanks to rewatching fr00sk and Touhou 17 in a nutshell; however, I am not much better with some of the songs in terms of how well I know them
  
• stage 2
  
• stage 2 boss
  
• stage 3
  
• stage 3 boss
  
• stage 4 
  
• stage 4 boss
  
• stage 5 - Beast Metropolis; the one song I found first in a PC-98 style remix; otherise, another good song
  
• stage 5 boss - haniwaa' susume! GO! ; oh sorry, I got carried away again by HANIPAGANDA
  
• stage 6 
  
• stage 6 boss - again, I think I have first listened to The Creator and Idola Deus before getting into the actual theme; however, as I got into the original song as well, I did not regret it any moment  
  
• extra stage 
  
• extra stage boss
  

Touhou 18

• stage 1
  
• stage 1 boss - "this is Michael"; besides that, I think this is a nice beginning for the game
  
• stage 2
  
• stage 2 boss - honestly one of the characters, besides the one on 4, that I tend to very much ignore when it comes to the UM cast; "Banditry technology" or whatever the name of the song was does not tell a lot to me
  
• stage 3
  
• stage 3 boss - Smoking Dragon; now this was the theme I really thought to be the best when the demo came out; a real banger back then, barely listened to recently though 
  
• stage 4 
  
• stage 4 boss - I have absolutely no idea what song Misumaru has at all; in front of all Misumaru fans I am sorry 
  
• stage 5 
  
• stage 5 boss - Starry Mountain of Tenma; aka Coooonsultant!
  
• stage 6 
  
• stage 6 boss - Where Is That Bustling Marketplace Now ~ Immemorial Marketeers; despite what people generally say about this theme, I actually like it; besides, Infinite Gradation is an absolutely welcome addition to the world of fan arrangements
  
• extra stage 
  
• extra stage boss - The Princess Who Slays Dragon Kings; not to much to say about this one besides it sounds good + DIG IT DIG OUT!
  

Scarlet Weather Rhapsody

• Crimson in the Black Sea/Legendary Fish - I like this song
   
  

Antimony of Common Flowers

• that Yukari theme - I guess now we have hardbass in Touhou 
  
• Tonight Stars an Easygoing Egoist - I really like how that song even is called (live ver.)l does that imply the song is being played live in stage? After all, the battle does seem to take place in the stage where the Prismriver sisters + Raiko are having a concert
  

Changeability of Strange Dream

• Dream of Arcadia - feels me with some sort of nostalgia
  
• Voyage 1969
  
• Boys and Girls of the Age of Science
  
• Border Between Dreams and Reality - this one, and the one above, are the two songs I could recognize in Black Mirror on the Wall
  
• Fantasy Machine ~ Phantom Factory - idk why, but I guess this one gives me some sort of Seihou vibes with how it sounds, the mechanical aspect and all
  

I have written this all the way back in June last year, when the Top 10 Original Touhou Tracks thread was going.

Fanon

• Headcanons are fine and all until they start getting pushed as fact, or just disrespect a character. To this day, the only fangame I've played that treats Meiling as remotely competent and self-respecting is Sengoku Gensokyo. Fanon can be a wonderful tool to expand on a character that get no attention, or piece together a wider narrative from the breadcrumbs left by ZUN, but nope, memes. I don't even hate memes, and I find some kind of funny, but after a while they lose their appeal and end up becoming the entire personality of a character. I know this isn't much of a hot take, but thought I'd add it.
  
  
  Also some characters get literally nothing worthwhile. One of my favorite characters, Shou, is either reduced to "forgor Pagoda" or just grouped under the umbrella of "Myouren Temple members don't follow their own teachings" despite being the Avatar of Bishamonten, and disrespecting him would likely result in being smote (also the point of Nazrin is to keep tabs on her). It sucks too because she's a case of a Youkai effectively evolving into something more (she was destined to disappear because the fear of what tigers even were dwindled). Thanks Akyuu, the one time fans don't outright discredit everything you say is to support their dumb headcanons (Referring to her entry on Byakuren under "Countermeasures" in SoPM where the suggestion of being more afraid of her Youkai followers being twisted by fanon to mean every member).
  

I have written quite a bit on the topic in the past, so I will not repeat myself. Instead, I will just redirect talk towards the following threads:



Yeah, it looks like I talked about it quite extensively last year...

Western Content Sort of Sucks

• I'll mention fangames first, and specifically the lack of Western-made ones. There are tons of talented people on this side of the fandom, but I can never seem to find a complete game, or something that's not just a reskin of an existing game, but worse, with Touhou characters plastered over it with terrible writing. This isn't something exclusive to this side of the fandom, but I like to be able to read, and a lot of what I'd want to play isn't translated. I've run across many people who spout "Touhou is the fan content", so I start to expect a bit more out of this fandom compared to others.
  
• I've mentioned this elsewhere, but the video content I've watched is really lackluster. Kind of hate the format where someone just reads off the Wiki, or gives a shallow rundown of an event/game they had no personal experience or attachment to. Suwawako's "The Touhoucon Failure" was interesting for the first-hand experience compared to something like "The Touhou Cannonball Failure" where it's just random other people's accounts of what happened (granted there were some rare good bits of info). The last one bugs me more as someone who played Cannonball when it was still alive (used a screen translator app which was a pain, but I got to experience the story at least).
  

You actually caught my attention at the Suwawako part. His content is... alright at least. Probably one of the more enjoyable channels to watch that rose last year (even if my favorite still is GensouChronicle). As for his videos, I am still surprised I made a cameo in the Touhou Drama video. Or better said one of my comments from the DMCA era in regards to the Twitter vs Touhou Wiki event. Of course he had to read my comment on the voice of a stereotypical, greasy basement-dweling neckbeard out of everything...




I am not very sure what to add here, especially since you have pointed it out much better than I could, and also in a much sorter way. 

 

[Eulogous]

I am aware of the "Grimsokyo" interpretation, but what exactly do you define as moeblob? Or what sor of fan works/fanart would you count into that category?

It's more when characters sort of get "defanged", or potential negative aspects get ignored, like Aya and Momiji being really good friends when they hate each other. I am biased more towards nicer and cuter things over making things grimdark, but both either ramp a trait up to the extreme, or just make stuff up.

How would you have done the game so that you could still have it reach a high audience, lack the predatory tactics of gacha, yet still be a commercial success?

The Barrier system sort of reminds me of Shin Megami Tensei with hitting weaknesses giving you an advantage beyond just damage. I actually love the idea of having to choose between status ailments or breaking Barriers for more damage. You could stack the turn economy SMT has going on with the in-depth Barrier system and get a really tense, strategic RPG.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

The Barrier system sort of reminds me of Shin Megami Tensei with hitting weaknesses giving you an advantage beyond just damage. I actually love the idea of having to choose between status ailments or breaking Barriers for more damage. You could stack the turn economy SMT has going on with the in-depth Barrier system and get a really tense, strategic RPG.

Actually, you have just given me the idea for a new thread. As it looks like my original discussion about LW seems to be mostly dead, perhaps something new could take its place. Something fresh, and constructive in its nature...

It's more when characters sort of get "defanged", or potential negative aspects get ignored, like Aya and Momiji being really good friends when they hate each other. I am biased more towards nicer and cuter things over making things grimdark, but both either ramp a trait up to the extreme, or just make stuff up.

On this kind of line, I have the feeling you you also don't have too high of an opinion about artist like Fusu? (don't worry, I don't think too high of him either...). You know, with turning the 2hus into generic anime girls confessing their love for you, the self-insert from whose point of view those images are built (and don't get me started on all the porn of these characters that just confessed he is drawing, still in point-of-view perspective, just that riding you or doing funny things to your manly parts)

Example (of the former, of course):

(I had to go through this so you don't have to)

I just can't help but bring again and again the following image whenever whenever Fusu is mentioned. I think it was probably one of the best reactions from the "counter-revolution" of r/touhou in November 2021 against anything regarding both Fusu translations and those who made fun of them (everyone was just sick of what was going on, and wanted the thing to end - both the suger-coated translations of out-of-character 2hus and the parodies hat started clogging the forum). More about the author, I have talked in some previous threads, including the "Horny Touhou" trilogy and the "Return of Fusu-posting"

Yeah, pretty much...

"1) The art itself is degrading, and takes, shall we say, great liberties with the 2hus' characterizations for the sole purpose of titillating the viewer. It's neckbeard-bait, plain and simple. And Touhou as I like it is the antithesis of neckbeard-bait.
2) Someone was spamming it virtually nonstop at one point on this sub. And whether due to the initial novelty of the thing, the horniness of the average redditor, or bots, those posts got lots of upvotes and shot to the top of Hot more often than not. Even people who initially didn't mind it eventually got sick of it."

 

[Eulogous]

On this kind of line, I have the feeling you you also don't have too high of an opinion about artist like Fusu? (don't worry, I don't think too high of him either...). You know, with turning the 2hus into generic anime girls confessing their love for you, the self-insert from whose point of view those images are built

I am very aware of Fusu's work, and surprisingly I don't mind this sort of art. It's absolutely not for me, but I don't take joy in demeaning other's tastes or what they do in their private time. Honestly, when it comes to fanart, I really don't care as much as say a fangame, because so many people will draw and be paid to draw these characters in literally any situation since it's their line of work, and it's a fruitless battle trying to change or even care about it imo.

Fusu is just one of many Touhou artists that make this sort of content, but suddenly, just because one person started spamming r/Touhou with their art, they are now the poster boy that deserves to be "called out" for "misinterpreting our beloved characters". The only problem I have with Fusu's art is the samey-ness of it all, there's an over-reliance of the same foward-facing shot and there's little variation of it.

"Ah yes, how do we deal with such a person? By making a parody of their art talking down to anyone who could remotely enjoy such a heinous thing, because they deserve to be treated that way for not being what we have deemed to be 'normal'."

Many Western fans see themselves as the arbiters of what's "right" and "wrong" and pretend what they believe is objective and indisputable. It's often why I prefer not to interact with anyone about these topics, because their mind is already made up, discussion is impossible, and I'll likely be put on display for the amusement of an echo chamber.

I don't direct this ire towards you, Count. It just sort of strikes a nerve seeing people obsess over nothing remotely constructive and pretend they are making a change for the "better".

 

[OkuuFallout]

Remembering that there was a mention of pronunciations earlier in this topic, I wanted to go back to that.

Regarding the accent change, I really don't think it matters much. But the one thing that irks me are the phonetic pronunciations of the characters. One of the great things about the Japanese language is its pronunciations of their characters (kanji isn't really a part of this, since they're technically Chinese characters and different sounds for them have changed over time).

That's why when I hear people say "Sir-no", it really annoys me. Cirno's japanese spelling is チルノ, or when romanized, "Chi-ru-no" (do note, however, that the "u" in "ru" cannot be omitted like in some other foreign words pronunciations). If it was spelled "しるノ", or "shi-ru-no", it would be correct since the Japanese language doesn't have a native "si" sound, and they often don't bother pronouncing foreign words like that. So that's why when I hear "Sir-no", I always cringe.

Flandre is also a mispronounced character. This one doesn't really bother me, I even knowingly mispronounce it myself. But I have yet to hear it said in its correct way. At the end of "Flandre", the "e" is pronounced. However, in the Japanese spelling, it is spelled "フランドール", or "fu-ra-n-dō-ru". Because of the last character being "ru" and not "re", a non-Japanese pronunciation would most likely really be something like "Flander".

 

[buskerdog]

Remembering that there was a mention of pronunciations earlier in this topic, I wanted to go back to that.

Regarding the accent change, I really don't think it matters much. But the one thing that irks me are the phonetic pronunciations of the characters. One of the great things about the Japanese language is its pronunciations of their characters (kanji isn't really a part of this, since they're technically Chinese characters and different sounds for them have changed over time).

That's why when I hear people say "Sir-no", it really annoys me. Cirno's japanese spelling is チルノ, or when romanized, "Chi-ru-no" (do note, however, that the "u" in "ru" cannot be omitted like in some other foreign words pronunciations). If it was spelled "しるノ", or "shi-ru-no", it would be correct since the Japanese language doesn't have a native "si" sound, and they often don't bother pronouncing foreign words like that. So that's why when I hear "Sir-no", I always cringe.

Flandre is also a mispronounced character. This one doesn't really bother me, I even knowingly mispronounce it myself. But I have yet to hear it said in its correct way. At the end of "Flandre", the "e" is pronounced. However, in the Japanese spelling, it is spelled "フランドール", or "fu-ra-n-dō-ru". Because of the last character being "ru" and not "re", a non-Japanese pronunciation would most likely really be something like "Flander".

^ This

Also, although this doesn't bother me at all, it is funny how much our side of the fandom mispronounces Reimu's name. れ(re)＋い(i)＝long れ(re) sound. The "i" is silent. That's right, "Raymoo" is no more.

 

[OkuuFallout]

Also, although this doesn't bother me at all, it is funny how much our side of the fandom mispronounces Reimu's name. れ(re)＋い(i)＝long れ(re) sound. The "i" is silent. That's right, "Raymoo" is no more.

After some research, I found out that the "i" is silent sometimes. I knew about "u" sometimes being silent, but not "i". So as I was first about to type this, I was going to say "i" is never silent, which I would've been wrong.

However, after researching this, I can confirm that the "i" in "Reimu" is not silent. The only times it can be silent are between two consonant sounds that do not use a voice (k, s, sh, t, ch, h and f), and on certain occasions they are "devoiced", as it is called, regardless (most notably in "desu" and "masu", where the "u" is silent). The "i" in "Reimu" does not come after a voiceless consonant, and therefore the "i" is pronounced. The only time I know of a vowel being silent after another vowel is in "ou", where it draws out the "o", like in "youkai". Even then, some words have a double "o", like in "おおきい/大きい", or "ookii", which means "big".

In fact, if anything was to be wrongly pronounced in Reimu's name, it would actually be the opposite, somewhat. Even some Japanese people don't do this. The "ay" sound in "Reimu" would technically be broken down further to emphasize the difference between the "e" and "i" more, making it kind of like "Re-ee-moo" (where "ee" is the same as a Japanese "i"). If you don't believe me, look no further than the classic, "Neko Miko Reimu", in which the singer emphasizes each syllable in "Reimu", although it is emphasized more heavily than normal. But like I said before, some Japanese people don't emphasize individual consonant sounds, and just do it fast enough to be more of a blend between the two.

 

[buskerdog]

After some research, I found out that the "i" is silent sometimes. I knew about "u" sometimes being silent, but not "i". So as I was first about to type this, I was going to say "i" is never silent, which I would've been wrong.

However, after researching this, I can confirm that the "i" in "Reimu" is not silent. The only times it can be silent are between two consonant sounds that do not use a voice (k, s, sh, t, ch, h and f), and on certain occasions they are "devoiced", as it is called, regardless (most notably in "desu" and "masu", where the "u" is silent). The "i" in "Reimu" does not come after a voiceless consonant, and therefore the "i" is pronounced. The only time I know of a vowel being silent after another vowel is in "ou", where it draws out the "o", like in "youkai". Even then, some words have a double "o", like in "おおきい/大きい", or "ookii", which means "big".

In fact, if anything was to be wrongly pronounced in Reimu's name, it would actually be the opposite, somewhat. Even some Japanese people don't do this. The "ay" sound in "Reimu" would technically be broken down further to emphasize the difference between the "e" and "i" more, making it kind of like "Re-ee-moo" (where "ee" is the same as a Japanese "i"). If you don't believe me, look no further than the classic, "Neko Miko Reimu", in which the singer emphasizes each syllable in "Reimu", although it is emphasized more heavily than normal.

I didn't know that い extended え sounds only in certain cases. I did of course know how the chorus of Neko Miko Reimu goes, but I notice that many Japanese songs emphasise individual kana that wouldn't normally be pronounced in conversational speak (for example, separating an おう sound into お and う), so generally I wouldn't go to music as a pronunciation guide. However, I can pick out the い of her name being sounded in doujin anime.

But like I said before, some Japanese people don't emphasize individual consonant sounds, and just do it fast enough to be more of a blend between the two.

Did you mean vowel sounds?

But tbh, this. Double vowel sounds are very much a matter of subtlety.

I'm not doubting your information, but would you like me to ask some Japanese people about it?

Edit: after doing some research myself I can't find any evidence to suggest what you say is a grammatical rule, and apparently Touhou Lostword itself uses the pronunciation "Reemu". However I can't be asked to keep discussing it so imma just stop here.

 

[OkuuFallout]

I didn't know that い extended え sounds only in certain cases. I did of course know how the chorus of Neko Miko Reimu goes, but I notice that many Japanese songs emphasise individual kana that wouldn't normally be pronounced in conversational speak (for example, separating an おう sound into お and う), so generally I wouldn't go to music as a pronunciation guide. However, I can pick out the い of her name being sounded in doujin anime.

Did you mean vowel sounds?

But tbh, this. Double vowel sounds are very much a matter of subtlety.

I'm not doubting your information, but would you like me to ask some Japanese people about it?

Oh, you're right. I was just so used to writing "consonant" that I wrote it in place of vowel. So yeah, it was just a mistake. I meant "vowel".