Am I the only one who finds the third generation Touhou cast to be useless?

[kanedafanatic]

I'll be putting more thought in my words and sentences than usual. I don't want to give the Third-gen Touhou sux because it's ass kind of opinion and stick it there. I want to take a look at both sides of my point and mention the potential that third generation holds, but also what I believe lacks compared to the previous generations. Also, I'm sure those who clicked here manage to find something interesting or accept that particular generation as is, and that's fine. Those who do certainly have a mindset that I don't have and I should learn from that.

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Anyway, I believe that Touhou nowadays feels bloated. I don't see why anybody should care about the third generation's lore and characters (TH14 to nowadays). The majority of characters don't hold any weight for them to be appealing. The lore surrounding that era can be ignored as people still fixate upon the first and second generation content (TH6 to TH13, sometimes TH13.5). I'm of the opinion that I'm sure you could remove the third generation entirely from Touhou, it wouldn't feel much different than it was before.

I speak towards the characters and lore in particular: games-wise, I'm pretty sure the third-gen games are well-liked. I haven't seen someone say that Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom sucks, far as I'm concerned. The games themselves, I don't mind much. Frankly, it isn't my area of expertise to rant about. So on that I'll stay put.

Character-wise, I will point this out: It's obvious that the first and second generation characters will always be more popular, it's the steak and potatoes of Touhou. It's normal if you look at the latest Touhou Popularity polls, the huge majority of characters in the top 50 are first and second gen characters. My point is: those third-gen characters in particular have nothing appealing to them because they are half-baked. Look at Junko: you tell me you have a mother whose son has been killed, had built so much grief and hatred to the point of attacking the Lunar Capital with the Goddess of Hell, and one of the thing that blew up about her was her fanbase treating her like a mommy? What about the rest? Anybody talks about Son Biten? the grape girl? That living jizo statue? Aunn? What do they hold compared to someone like Cirno, Tewi, Suika, Kaguya and so on?

I believe those characters hold potential. They definitely do. However, it's executed poorly. I'm of the idea that separating the third-gen from Touhou itself is a good idea if it allows to reframe characters under a new light. A sister series to Touhou that while has a different setting, still takes place in Gensokyo where people can still use both. The difference is that because of having a different use and intention, they'll have more appeal. Not everyone will be interested in this fictional "sister series" but, it'll certainly give a breath of fresh air to what I believe are characters that are used wrong.

Lore-wise: what the fuck did ZUN write? I fuck with the idea of the Animal Kingdom being this place where families fight it out for control like some gang turf but, who cares? They don't bring anything new or worth caring about: the plot of Wily Beast and Weakest Creature literally makes use of possession to force the main protagonists out of their crib and inwards the gang war. It's not until Unfinished Dream of All Living Ghosts that now the Animal Kingdom is overflowing in Gensokyo. Then what was the purpose of TH17 then??

Again, I see this as a issue of execution. You already have like dozens of places already if we stick to the TH6-TH13 timelines. You got the religious-political trifecta with the Moriya Shrine, the Myouren Temple and the Divine Mausoleum. You got the Underworld: it's barely talked about! You've got the Netherworld and Heaven; I'm sure there's more to it than just Hakugyokurou and Tenshi/Iku's crib. There's still much more to do and even if it uses the same characters: there's like 80 or so within that specific timeline. You've got enough fuel to go forwards for a long while before changing the tank.

Then again, ZUN writes on a whim. Don't want to diss on the Hakurei Kannushi but, he doesn't even know how to make a good story about putting friction between his own characters (case and point: first half of Foul Detective Satori) without resorting to tropes and bad writing. It's sad because the way I see it? 1/3 of the series is wasted on stuff that personally, I don't see why I should care. There's barely anything to do with them. There's a few that stands out: Yuuma, Sumireko, Hecatia, and maybe a few more but, who really likes them for who they are outside of just their theme or appearance?

Look, I wanted to rant and vent. I could've gone essay style and get more facts but, people still find a reason to like that particular era, and I don't know why. That's what I want to find out by writing this

 

[NuMetalFan]

Finally, a normal thread. Anyway, as a cast increases it's harder to up with anything interesting. People keep pumping out characters not because they're full of ideas, but rather because they're forced to. And the fans of most media naturally just like older things, EoSD consistently wins in the popularity poll for instance. So yeah, I'm not surprised there are barely any mentions of newer games and characters among the casual(?) fans.
That's my 5 cents, I've only played the first ⑨ games and have no expertise in this anyway.

 

[fazun]

Almost every Touhou game story is badly written, it's literally always either beating 6 people to beat up the seventh or playing as 10 different people to beat up one specific girl and having a chance to play as the beaten one in the end. Despite having barely any personality or appearances, Momiji is popular as hell because she looks cute with these fuckass cat ears and is a "classic" character. Nobody cares that she and Aya are on pretty bad terms because nobaldi cares about Zun's writing. He provides us with characters, and we the people are using them in whatever way we want. One may like Sumireko for her queer role in Gensokyo's ecosystem or hate her for the very same reason. She may have only around 3K pieces of fan art compared to Sakuya (47K), but I don't think it should affect your preferences at all.

 

[vanyk]

Interesting topic, but I think such problem began to appear during the second generation. Let's take the first generation for example. Red mist incident happens, Sakuya and Remilia are introduced. They are relevant to PCB. In PCB Youmu, Yuyuko and Yakumos are introduced. They and Sakuya with Remilia are relevant in IN and IaMP. In PoFV many characters from EoSD, PCB and IN appear. They also appear in StB.
Later the second generation begins. Characters from previous games don't have much impact on MoF plot, but at least some of them are mentioned in SA. After that Moriya Shrine conspiracy begins and mostly characters from the second generation are relevant but characters from the first generation are less important. This situation was saved by Hisouten, Hisoutensoku and DS which used characters from both generations. But in HM there are mostly characters from the second generation.
So what we can see here? The characters from different generations have little connections between each other. But as the Golden age of Touhou started during the second generation that wasn't a big problem for most newcoming fans. New characters from SA, UFO and TD were related to the ones from MoF and still there were some connections with earlier games.
But later ZUN decided to make stories in mainline games less related with each other. And that is a big problem as the characters don't have much connections with each other. And the fighting games didn't help much here as most of characters were from the second generation, so most of the cast from DDC and LoLC wasn't relevant in the story of ULiL and AoCF (even the plot with "balls" (ULiL-LoLK-AoCF) didn't help much). ZUN added some characters which have some connections with the characters we already know in HSiFS and UM (now Aunn regularly appears in fanworks related to Hakurei Shrine, Megumu appears in tengu related fanworks and Takane sometimes appears in fanworks related to Kappas). But these exceptions only show that there are not other serious connections even between characters in the third generation. ZUN tried to solve this issue by doing the same trick he did with the second generation: one plot which connects different mainline games (WBaWC and UDoALG), spinoffs (Gouyoku Ibun) and in addition manga (FDS). Well, this wasn't really successful. Keiki wasn't relevant in next games (except one ending in FW), but at least Animal Realm and clans were relevant in UDoALG. And these characters didn't manage to make strong connections with older characters (but Gouyoku Ibun and UDoALG tried to do this).
And another problem is that these characters not very important outside of game plots. The second generation is good here:
1. MoF cast: representatives of important youkai groups which are responsible for delivering information and making technologies. Moriya do religious stuff.
2. SA cast: to be fair this is an example of characters not having really important role outside of game plot.
3. UFO cast: religious stuff. + Kogasa.
4. TD cast: religious stuff and religious conflict with UFO cast. + Tanuki.
And what about later games? Many characters didn't get important role outside of the game plots. Funny thing is that half of DDC and HSiFS cast are weak characters which don't have much role in Gensokyo. Seija and Junko don't have any serious role in Gensokyo. Lunarians, well, they are lunarians. ZUN at least tries to make Okina important. Keiki, Chimata and Zanmu are somewhat important, but not that much.

TL;DR: my point here is that the new characters don't have much connections with each other and old ones and don't have much role in Gensokyo.

My point is: those third-gen characters in particular have nothing appealing to them because they are half-baked. Look at Junko: you tell me you have a mother whose son has been killed, had built so much grief and hatred to the point of attacking the Lunar Capital with the Goddess of Hell, and one of the thing that blew up about her was her fanbase treating her like a mommy? What about the rest? Anybody talks about Son Biten? the grape girl? That living jizo statue? Aunn? What do they hold compared to someone like Cirno, Tewi, Suika, Kaguya and so on?

Yeah, I think this is also a problem. At least Aunn is cute character with some meme potential related to Reimu. Hisami has interesting role and design in theory, but it looks like there are not that many fanworks with her (comparing to other characters (including Son Biten) from UDoALG). I agree about Narumi.

I believe those characters hold potential. They definitely do. However, it's executed poorly. I'm of the idea that separating the third-gen from Touhou itself is a good idea if it allows to reframe characters under a new light. A sister series to Touhou that while has a different setting, still takes place in Gensokyo where people can still use both. The difference is that because of having a different use and intention, they'll have more appeal. Not everyone will be interested in this fictional "sister series" but, it'll certainly give a breath of fresh air to what I believe are characters that are used wrong.

That is what Kaisendo do, lol. To be fair, the third generation works like this, but there are other problems as I said.

Then what was the purpose of TH17 then??

Introduce Animal Realms and two gangs. The role of Gouyoku Ibun is to introduce the last gang. Both these games are build ups for UDoALG. The problem is that the arc itself is not that good.

Again, I see this as a issue of execution. You already have like dozens of places already if we stick to the TH6-TH13 timelines. You got the religious-political trifecta with the Moriya Shrine, the Myouren Temple and the Divine Mausoleum. You got the Underworld: it's barely talked about! You've got the Netherworld and Heaven; I'm sure there's more to it than just Hakugyokurou and Tenshi/Iku's crib. There's still much more to do and even if it uses the same characters: there's like 80 or so within that specific timeline. You've got enough fuel to go forwards for a long while before changing the tank.

Agree.

I agree that ZUN is not the best writer but that is how he writes stories. He is bad at showing conflicts in manga (all manga prove that). He is better at writing short slice of life stories to be honest. Conflicts are better in games because they are games.

Nobody cares that she and Aya are on pretty bad terms because nobaldi cares about Zun's writing.

To be fair it depends on fanwork and in some them relations are closer to canon ones. And AFiEU showed that relations between them not that bad.

He provides us with characters, and we the people are using them in whatever way we want.

Yes, that is true.

 

[kanedafanatic]

Almost every Touhou game story is badly written, it's literally always either beating 6 people to beat up the seventh or playing as 10 different people to beat up one specific girl and having a chance to play as the beaten one in the end. Despite having barely any personality or appearances, Momiji is popular as hell because she looks cute with these fuckass cat ears and is a "classic" character. Nobody cares that she and Aya are on pretty bad terms because nobaldi cares about Zun's writing. He provides us with characters, and we the people are using them in whatever way we want. One may like Sumireko for her queer role in Gensokyo's ecosystem or hate her for the very same reason. She may have only around 3K pieces of fan art compared to Sakuya (47K), but I don't think it should affect your preferences at all.

I see what you're saying and by that definition, yeah, Touhou is written like mega ass:
> Something happens.
> Main characters realize it (or is forced to act upon depending on the context).
> Go beat up six slightly different bosses towards the actor who does the "something."
> Extra Stage for bragging rights and assert dominance.
> Game's done, now either fuck off or play again.

or

> Something happens.
> Main characters realize it and group up (you get to choose one of your liking).
> Go beat up six slightly different bosses towards the actor who does "something" (worse case scenario, you see the same characters again).
> Extra Stage for bragging rights and assert dominance.
> Rinse and repeat a multitude of times with different characters to fully complete the game.
> Game's fully done, now either fuck off or play again.


Instead we, the fans, get to do whatever we want with them. That, I fully agree. However, the third gen characters barely have anything about themselves unless for a few. Hecatia's told to be powerful enough that even Yukari doesn't want to deal with, and what is there left by ZUN himself? Barely nothing, we see her once and it's over. You tell me that a character that can upset the balance of the world it situates without trying, that can make even the most strongest think twice before acting, is reduced to a poster girl with a small description that says "I can blow up the Earth :3" and a I LUV HELL shirt? Fuck off, that's just wasting my time.

So instead, the fans write the character for themselves. Great, now that's a whole other character. Don't mind a new re-interpretation like we did with Daiyousei and Momiji but it only begs to ask: why even bother thinking of something barely developed if you could just recycle instead? In the case of Daiyou and Momiji, both were minor character that fans grew up to appreciate and overwrite ZUN's works but, take the majority of the third-gen cast: are fans even touching those? Not really.

I get that dawg is in his 50's nowadays and Touhou's on it's 30th year, great! Creative burnout's going to happen at one point. Yet, he's better off doing something else. I'm not his advisor but I mean, that's just common sense. If you're doing the same thing over and over again and you're tired of it, change. It's not like he has something lose after all.