Am I a bad fan? What makes one a Touhou fan?

[CountVonNumenor]

Before going into Retrospective 2022 (either on the 31st December 2022 or first days of January 2023), there is one more thing I would like to talk about before the end of the year. This thread is going hand in hand with the one I have posed yesterday. Just before the end of the year, I would like to make both an evaluation of my place within the community and the situation of the regular Touhou fan that engages with the series in one way or another. I was thinking about tackling this question for about a couple months, after a series of weird events.

Before going into the thread itself, what makes someone a Touhou fan? Is there such a thing as "fakers", or everyone has their own place? Think of it, then come back to the question once the journey through this thread is complete. 

So, how did we end up here?

Somewhere in July, out of all places possible, I ended up finding another person who knew about Touhou in a Warhammer 40K channel of a Sci-fi Discord server (probably like 10-15K people). The guy was randomly posting a Touhou hijack every now and then, and once I did have the chance to catch it. During one of those hijacks, I was also around, and like the innocent fool I was, I pointed out "oh hey, that's Touhou, nice". Then, I did my big mistake: I said I am familiar with the series. Which spiraled him into asking me how many or which of the official games I have played. When my answer was none, and that I was struggling to finish PCB on Easy, all hell broke loose. "How can you call yourself a Touhou fan? How can you not even finish that game? It is so easy". I responded that I may have not finished any game yet, but at least I read from the official literature (at the time, Perfect Memento in Strict Sense and the first 4 volumes of Forbidden Scrollery), yet that was not enough to qualify me. Then he proceeded to talk about how much he played the games, saying that playing them is one of the qualifying factors. The discussion died off, at least for a few more months.

At the middle of November, I caught another one of his hijacks in the Warhammer channel. At the time, I responded with this image, which I thought combined in a funny way the two fandoms (for context, Orin and Space Marin of the Iron Warriors legion acting as if he were her big brother):

Art by BIGCAT_4424 (source: https://twitter.com/BIGCAT_4424/status/1267026103106965507)

The image itself did not spark any negative reactions, but the guy went into a big rant again about the games, starting to judge categories, who is a real fan and who is not. Then this happened (I have censored names for the name of privacy):

The video attachment he posted was an MP4 file of the video "ULTRA Instinct Junko is Born" by lunaPrism. And from there, the discussion died again. It was never brought again, and probably never will (hopefully) if I stay low. Besides, I can not do anything about it, or even just comment, since it would be basically me, a low-ranking member, again a Discord mod. Looking for some more information, I started talking to the other Touhou communities on the question of what makes you a fan of Touhou. The big Touhou server had a very civilized discussion with me, even if it was very late in night. 

Them , I tried asking the same question on the Moriya Shrine's Discord server. Oh boy... Besides people saying that the take of the mod was "based", they also guided me towards the following image. This, is surely an interesting take:

Basically, they have told me I am bad fan, and people like me are one of the causes leading to the decrease in quality of the Touhou community. (slight slander towards the Moriya Shrine Discord server; that place has serious quality control problems when it comes to behavior)

When I went back to the other Touhou server, and presented them this image as "the answer I got to the same question from another Touhou community", everyone was in shock. The reaction was quite poor towards the image. They just could not believe someone would even come up with this when answering to the question "am I a bad fan?". Everyone dismissed this image, and I was told not to worry about it. And from that point, I have thought a little bit about how to address this question. 

Now, coming to the person case - am I a bad fan?

Originally, I have addressed this question ever since my early days in the fandom. I have eventually addressed the following text and question on r/touhou on the 8th December, 2021, just 1 year after getting into the series. This was my original text:

All of us have joined this fandom for one reason or another, and enjoy it for different things, be it the source material or fan content. However, I have seen quite a lot of discussion, if not outright conflict between those who actually played the games, and those who are mostly drawn in by the fan content, better known as "secondaries". Here would come question #1: is being a "secondary" a bad thing?

In order to try drawing a conclusion regarding my position in the fandom, I will first refer to the balance between canon and fanon I have kept in the past year.

Canon:

• started playing Perfect Cherry Blossom (still stuck at Stage 3, even on Easy Difficulty)
  
• read Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red (really liked it btw), as well as started reading Perfect Memento in Strict Sense and Symposium of Post-mysticism
  
• out of all official music CDs, the two I have fully listened to are Changeability of Strange Dream and Neo-traditionalism of Japan, with Ghostly Field Club planned next
  
• also listened to various stage and character themes from across the games
  

Fanon:

• the only fanon game actually played up to this point would be Touhou Lost Word
  
• read a few random SFW doujins
  
• listened heavily to music doujins, most notable in my experience up to this point being Akatsuki Records (my utter favorite), Shinra-Bansho, Shibayan Records, Tokyo Active NEETS and Iron Attack, with probably some songs here and there from groups like O-Life Jp, Soundholic, EastNewSound and IOSYS (for the memes, as long as they do not go too far - O am looking at you, Border of Ecstasy...)
  
• I am also attracted by the sheer amounts of awesome, serious or just cute pieces of art fans have created, which in a way makes me a bit jealous I still have to work until my own stuff could be good enough to be actually called fanart
  
• watched the first 7 episodes of Memories of Phantasm, and I still need to finish that series despite getting discouraged by the increasingly negative reception it got
  
• despite referring to characters most of the time through their canon personalities, there are still moments when I may refer to fanon or meme characterizations just for a bit of fun
  

I mean to be fair, my first proper exposure to the world of Touhou Project has been through fandom, and fanworks. Be it the Bullet Hell album of Richaad EB, Cirno's Perfect Math Class or Rampaging Sakuya, my first weeks of the experience revolved a lot around the fandom bits YouTube used to provide me on a daily basis. To be fair, for quite a while, I did not even know there were other games other than EoSD in the series, and was pleasantly surprised to learn there is more. However, combined with all the fanart that bears such a strong anime semblance, and Touhou being the first Japanese fandom I am being part of, made me react a bit weirdly to it. I have almost treated everything as more of an abime fandom, full of cute girls that could also be badasses and went into seemingly light-hearted adventures. Maybe I also took wrong this series, maybe as a coping mechanism, since you know, lots of cool, even if fictional feminine characters start messing up with the mind of a 19 years old who is a great failure at socializing with others and trying to get a girl to like him/be more likeable to others (I have to admit, it is also my fault in here).

Oh boi, how wrong could I be... When I first started discovering the darker, edgier sides of canon, it fell like a shock for me. I felt almost heartbroken, as if an illusion was shattered and things were no longer as nice as I thought. The place that I thought would be a nice fantasy land to explore became what would be your death sentence if you were a random human spirited away to Gensokyo, while your only option being that of praying for a quick death from whatever youkai wants to eat you. That was the moment I was closes to leaving the ship, but got back my courage and started exploring to see if there is actually anything else I could enjoy out of it. Which has actually worked, given I am still here today, writing this wall of text.

And this is where the question comes: given this balance, am I a bad fan? Am I just a secondary, one of those "filthy casuals" who just got into Touhou through fanon, had no idea how things actually work, and further lead to the "ruining" of characters through corruption of personalities and whatever else?

My other question, #2, would be the following: since I am living in Romania (so Eastern Europe), in what geographic area of the fandom do I place myself? I feel like my area is exactly in the middle, neither in the Eastern nor Western Touhou fandom (despite the Western one being more accessible in theory thanks to using English as lingua franca). Or is Romania actually located in any of these two?

Side note: I am purely amazed there even are people who know what Touhou is over here, given how ignorant Romanians can be about foreign culture, references and media. Especially when it comes to an indie series of vertical scrolling Shoot-em-up games coming from Japan, despite paradoxically getting such a cult following worldwide. May also be from Romania still being a country that tries to catch up with the outside world culturally, after more than 40 years of lockdown in the communist bloc and 30 more of wild transition to modernity, given how many concepts that in the West would be seen as common would be absolutely alien here, even by the end of 2021.

• And a side question regarding the Eastern-Western fandom split: is it true that the East sees the Western fandom as ruining Touhou and what it should be? Or both sides are contributing equally to this process?
  

And now, one year later, this is what the situation looks like, and what has changed:

Canon:

• I am still struggling to finish PCB, but things are not going much better. The best I could achieve was the Prismriver sisters battle, but only after I used all the Continues (damn you, Stage 3 and first half of Stage 4). And that was on "Easy Modo"
  
• I have not advanced much more in reading Bohemian Archive, but I can say that I have briefly read through the characters section for Perfect Memento, as we well as briefly reading though multiple parts of Alternative Facts in Eastern Utopia. Probably my greatest achievement however was finishing the first 5 volumes of Forbidden Scrollery, with two more to go in the following weeks hopefully. 
  
• and not just read FS, but actually own physical copies of all the volumes. There is a funny anecdote that given the low supply here in Romania, I may have accidentally ended up buying the entire stock for the first 3 volumes from that manga (now even more so as I bough the final volumes). Before I ordered them, they were in Limited Edition. Now, they are in No Stock remaining:
  

• Along with Changeability of Strange Dream and Neo-traditionalism of Japan, I have finally added Ghostly Field Club to the list of CDs I have listened to (actually, right now I am listening to GFC again, since I like it very much). For the next year, I am planning to listen to the other music CSs as well (I may have already listened to CD 9.5, but I am not so sure how much it counts as an actual product and not just a glorified commercial)
  

Fanon:

• The only fanon game I have constantly played still is Touhou LostWord
  
• I have a few more ideas for fan games, but I never ended up sticking with them. My Steam library has a section for free Touhou fan games, yet they still wait to be played. In it, there is stuff like Hina-Chan 2nd Break, Servants of Harvest Wish, Perfect Memento of Touhou Question and Touhou Mystery Reel. Out of all these titles, Touhou Mystery Reel is the only one I have actually played until now. And it convinced me of two things: 1) I suck at platform games and 2) I suck at fighting games. But more on that in my eventual discussion about looking for a Touhou themed game to enjoy...
  
• The music scene is just as rich as last year in my collection, even though through the year I have added a few more names like Komeiji Records, Konagusuri, Lyrica Live, Stringstorm (given he has started creating Touhou music), YaboiMatoi, Yuuhei Satellite, Demetori (even if I am still just scratching the surface) and UNDEAD CORPORATION, as well as the regular one-off song I might be listening to from one group or another (some of them discovered through the remix tournaments).
  
• My collection of fanart that I like from the community has increased, reaching nowadays an astonishing number of 23.8k pieces. On that note, I have recently created a new Pinterest page, CVN database, that will act as a way to more properly categorize Touhou images of different characters and the games they have come from... if I manage to sort out all that stuf, given the rapid pace in which the collection is growing
  
•  My skills at creating Touhou fanart have not improved; I am still doing just as poor of a job and as little of a contribution to the fandom as before, if not worse than before
  
• I have finally finished watching Memories of Phantasm, and I actually even wrote an extensive review for it here at the Shrine. Next on my list, perhaps after a detour towards Amagami, shall be Hifuu Activity Club Record, simply because I want to see the interaction between Maribel and Renko, and the way it is depicted (I have already seen a couple short clips, and it seems to be quite sweet)
  
• My stance towards the way I interpret the characters has changed quite a bit; I have had a period in which I was more of a purist, then I started switching towards a more relaxed attitude. Now, I still prefer some of the canon depictions, while for some characters I tend to accept adding a bit of fanon as well, especially when I consider it to make sense/fir the character in question, still making the difference however (like having it clear in my mind that "this is ZUN canon" or "this is fan canon")
  
• I may have actually made a few bad decisions and stir up the lack of satisfaction of the Touhou community, especially in moments like that when I brought up the whole issue of the mountains of NSFW materials we have and the turning of the Touhou characters into mere "waifus to fap to"
  
• also in the meantime, I have become a member of this community; in the large scale, it may further bring me some hate due to the sheer association with the group and what Moriya Shrine is, and will always be known for - be the "pirate bay of Touhou"
  
• I may have also expanded a little bit into watching some of the...less than safe for work art of Touhou, but that one came mostly by extension since I am using Danbooru so much as my main search engine for Touhou art. It was a shock at the beginning (like for anyone who sees their favorite series being turned into something lewd, the first reaction is.. hard to describe), but in time, I have grown rather desensitized about it. For a better understanding of the situation:
   
  

Spoiler

I am also asking because this sort of thing (the existence and commonality of spicy materials related to my favorite series and characters) is basically a new experience for me. My personal stance on such materials can be very much split into two stages: the BEFORE and AFTER finding out what Danbooru is. Until finding out that website, I could not really conceive the idea of going after or seeing so much explicit material related to the thing you like. One of my friends pretty much decided to get me into a "drunk watch of Star Wars R34 art", minus the "drunk" part - all I can say is that evening was a little difficult to digest.

Skipping a few months after that event, directly to when I found Touhou (so in like December 2020). Just as I drew my first Touhou fanart (seen in the Anime thread), and was asking by this friend why did I draw something with so small boobs. I told him a bit about what Touhou is, showed him a bit of official art, then he asked me what was the name of the character (I showed him an official art sprite of Yuyuko from PCB). Less than a minute later, what is the first thing he decided to show me? A R34 image of Yuyuko - my first taste of such content when it comes to Touhou. I was quite a bit shocked to see it, even if he intended it just as a joke and to get a laugh out of my innocence I still had at the time. 

About a year later, and my first discovery of Danbooru. Initially, I was not even supposed to be on that website. I was using Safebooru for adding images to my collection, and remarked that by searching "Iku Nagae" I could not find anything. Thinking there was something wrong, I decided to go for other boards. Without paying too much attention, I ended up on her Danbooru page (and also realized I had to search it as "Nagae Iku"). What was the first thing that got into my face? Pretty much any kind of R18 I could imagine - from nude pose to intercourse (both straight and yuri - Tenshi included). For a while, I pretty much decided to NOPE, and stayed on Safebooru. But eventually, I ended up replacing Safebooru with Danbooru. For the past year, I have only been using the latter on a daily basis, so in the end I feel like I got quite desensitized to such kind of content. Therefore, my question when it came to all this research was out of curiosity, not any kind of outrage for the existence of such content. I pretty much went from "I cannot imagine this kind of content existing/I don't really want to be in contact with it or purposefully go after it" to "alright, this exists, I guess [example fitting my mentioned requirements] looks rather neat". Is it wrong that I may enjoy some of the stuff if it is in a non-sexual connotation, or just overall in good taste?

Probably the creation of this thread was also the effect of simply going to Twitter one day based on a Danbooru link to check out the original artist, and saw that the artist retweeted dozens of other NSFW artists who were drawing Touhou stuff (I will be honest, some of it was rather neat, in other instances I was surprised as basically I did not know there was also an NSFW version of an image I was used to), and that made me start this question of why there is so much popularity for such depictions. 

And this, kids, is a little bit more of a darker side of mine
 

And for the final question...

What really makes one a Touhou fan? Is there really such a thing as a wrong way to enjoy Touhou? Is there something that really makes you say "yeah, that guy is a real fan" or "no, he is not"? The discussion has always been going one way or another. At the beginning, I have had the bad experience of meeting people like BlankGuy...

The ever-known "if you are only in for the girls, you are not a real Touhou fan; go play some waifu gacha instead" (unfortunately, the more relevant image was lost to time and files no longer embedding/working). On a surprising twist of fate, he seems to be having a change of heart after everything he did. Could this be genuine? I really hope so. However, I have seen that before with XG3E as well, and immediately afterwards, he ended going back to the customs of milking the "Touhou mommy" format he created/made popular. But, like the very naive person I am, I would really like to believe this is actually a change for the better, and that I could give him a second chance. (also oh no, he knows about some of my threads from the past. If things really have changed, I would like to apologize. It is just that some of the early claims really left a poor taste for some of the people)

 

Good luck to him, and hope next time I will mention the name of BlankGuy, it will be in a positive context

... then there is this image talking about how the players of a specific Touhou fan game are not real Touhou fans (for context, LostWord player = fake Touhou fan)...

... and we are ending it with TheOVJM and his take on the same category of Touhou fans

(and for a bonus already mentioned in the Google Doc thread)

Spoiler

So basically Touhou fans are fools for going to support DanKagu, and those who already donated are even more of a bunch of fools. 

Anyway, some however say that anyone is welcome in the community, and as long as they enjoy any aspect regarding Touhou, you are part of the group. Some like the art, others enjoy playing the games or even like going for a challenge. Others have been attracted by the fan-games, or just love reading the official or fan-written manga. And some are just here for the porn. Given how vast Touhou is, there is something to satisfy everyone. Therefore, why are we so bothered calling people "primaries" and "secondaries" (terms which are still unironically used now, at the end of 2022)?

Probably the best take I have heard until now in regards to the question has been that of the rising star in terms of Touhou lore content, GensouChronicle. Seriously, all my respect for the guy, he is doing such a great job covering a variety of topics, and I even made some references to him through the Memories of Phantasm review

 

[SoundOfRayne]

Never a simple post with you, huh Count?
Just as I'm trying to write up a response to the Memories of Phantasm post, I get the notification for this. Well, this topic's a little more important. So, I've read through it all pretty quickly, and I've got some pretty strong feelings on the matter.

So, just to get the first question out of the way, "Am I a bad Touhou fan?" Short answer: No. Long answer: Fuck no.

There is no debate on this. There is no justifiable, well-intentioned way to make a case that there are "better" or "worse" ways to be a fan. And this doesn't just apply to Touhou. It applies to everything. Gatekeeping is inexcusable in my book. It always has been, and it's always going to be.

I think that the basis behind this problem, and why some act the way they do about other people joining in their fandoms, is a psychological concept known as "the Other." As per the webpage:

"The Other is an individual who is perceived by the group as not belonging, as being different in some fundamental way. Any stranger becomes the Other. The group sees itself as the norm and judges those who do not meet that norm (that is, who are different in any way) as the Other. Perceived as lacking essential characteristics possessed by the group, the Other is almost always seen as a lesser or inferior being and is treated accordingly. The Other in a society may have few or no legal rights, may be characterized as less intelligent or as immoral, and may even be regarded as sub-human."​

I wasn't sure whether I should bring this one up. The Other is a concept most often used alongside some pretty heavy topics like, for example: differences in race and ethnicity, social class, religion, and political stances. Pretty heavy stuff with a lot of severe implications behind them. And I would be a damned idiot if I tried to make the case that gatekeeping in a fandom is equivalent to being a racist and a bigot. But... I can't deny that when I see stuff like you put in your post, Count, this was the first thing that came to mind. I think on a fundamental level, this is the reason why gatekeeping happens.

People like feeling like they're part of something special; that they found this hidden gem, and they get to place themselves in an "us" against "them" scenario because they understand something that others around them don't. It massages their ego to feel like they're part of this "special elite," even though it would make more sense to want more people involved, so that they would have more opportunities to share their passions with others. But people don't want that. If their fandom gets popular, they're not the "special ones" anymore; just another face in the crowd. So to stave it off, they, the "us," have to do something to set themselves apart from the "them." "They" aren't "us" and they can't be "us," because if "they" can be "us," then there's no point in being "us."

The Touhou fandom is... weird. Weird in the sense that it is simultaneously an absolute powerhousing giant of a fandom, yet relatively obscure. It's big enough that a lot of people (I'd argue most people) find out about it through means other than its official material. At the same time, getting invested in it takes work. Say you wanna play the games. Sure, the later entries are available on Steam, but they're costly, and aren't officially patched for any language other than Japanese. Better google up a patch. Oh, and I hope you actually like and are decent at shoot-em-ups. You're not getting much story if you can't beat the game. Wanna read the manga? Hope you already know who these characters are; they're not gonna be introduced. Oh yeah, and these also aren't made available in your language. Please, I just want my WaHH... Is that too much to ask? OG Touhou fans outside of Japan had to work their asses off to get into this fandom. It's not hard to imagine them getting an ego when new people join in because Touhou is now infinitely more accessible than it was in their time. Now we get "fake fans." They didn't put in the same amount of time and work and dedication that we did, and yet they get to keep the same title of "fan?" And now even inside the fandom, it's still "us" vs "them."

Okay, that's enough on the nature of gatekeeping. Worrying about whether you fit someone else's definition of a "fan" isn't just a fruitless endeavor; it's a harmful one. If you let someone assume the role of an authority on what constitutes a fan, not only are you putting your own enjoyment of Touhou at risk, but also reinforcing their stance that their are "better" and "worse" fans for other newcomers. That's why gatekeeping needs to be nipped in the bud and never be tolerated.

I'm not totally happy with my post. I still have the second question to answer about "What makes someone a Touhou fan?" But, I'm out of time for today, and I really don't want to wait a whole 'nother day to get my thoughts out. I'll definitely be coming back to this thread to close things up.

 

[EerieCrypts]

I've never once taken part in this fandom, though I've only been a part of it for probably a good year and a half if that. Being social is not my strong suit, but I feel strongly enough about topics like this that I'm making my first reply on this site. I'll keep it very brief!

No one is a bad fan.

It doesn't matter how you consume content, whether it's a gacha, or a fan game you particularly enjoy, or even if you only like one game in the series. Hell, even if you just like the characters and fan animations, you're a fan. If you want to engage in the parts of the community you find fun, then go ahead and do it, and don't let any single person tell you that you're a bad fan for doing so. That's my take.

 

[adzi]

On separate note, I consider the switch of DanKagu from a gacha game to a... non-gacha game an improvement. Yeah, the fact that whatever people achieved in the gacha version is lost forever sucks, but that's the problem with "games as service" as a whole, and shouldn't really be used against the standalone release of DanKagu.

 

[Nekoko]

No one is a bad fan.

Actually, there is some bad fan and it’s the ones who are claiming that liking this character or this franchise is a sin. Like in the Dragon Ball fandom, some people would like to kick me if I say that I prefer Dragon Ball GT more than Dragon Ball Z, the people I’m talking about are 100% bad fans because they don’t let me or some other person love what they want, they just want everyone to like the same thing…

So to put it in a nutshell, according to me, bad fans exist and they are the one who are oppressing the whole fandom by forcing them to think the same thing and like the same stuff 

 

[AlexandruUnu]

Personally, I never had to deal with people calling me a bad fan, mainly because I didn't interact with other fans up until I found this forum. Well, there was this one guy on a Discord server I am in, but his messages and memes were either very political, suggestive, or sometimes straight up offensive, but that isn't what this thread is about.

First question first, "Am I a bad fan?". I don't think you are a bad fan at all. 

You know what the fandom gatekeepers are. A bunch of people that judge people based on how and why they enjoy the series. For them, this is how it goes: "Oh, you didn't clear all the games on lunatic with a score bigger than 1 billion? Shame on you.", "You are telling me that you actually like a character from Touhou 6, 7 or 8? Go fuck yourself." (God forbid you tell them that you like a character from 6), "You play Lost Word? We don't want you here.", and so on. They think that they are holy knights sent by ZUN to cleanse the fandom from "fake" Touhou fans. I sometimes wonder what is the thought process behind their actions.

There is no right way to enjoy Touhou. You can enjoy the shmup games, the fighter games, the print works, the CDs, the game's OSTs, and the enormous amount of fanwork. You can also enjoy whatever character, game or song you like, no matter if others think it's "overrated" or something.

For the second question, "What makes a Touhou fan?"

I'm pretty sure there is a more elaborate answer that I am not smart enough to give out. But by definition, a fan of something is someone that admires said something, so in other words, merely enjoying something part of the Touhou franchise, be it either canon or fanon is enough to qualify as a fan. I don't think I gave that good or complete of an answer to this question.

Like you said, Touhou has something for everyone. You like cute girls? There is plenty of them. Fancy something dark in your life, we also have that. Enjoy mythology? Touhou is riddled with it. Are you more of a fan of fighters than shmups? Well, you're in luck. And those are just some examples of what the series has to offer.

 

[Sci]

There's a lot I can say on this topic but maybe later, my brain battery is low right now.
Most importantly... You might wanna talk to me or a staff member if you have your qualms with my server. I'm not unapproachable, and prefer that people feel welcome. I'm just not looking at the place 24/7 due to real life.

Btw gacha bad

 

[SoundOfRayne]

I'm glad I decided to sleep before coming back to finish this post. I seem to always have a better perspective on things after waking up.

I was gonna come in with a spiel about how "there's no definition for what makes someone a fan" and how "only you can define whether you consider yourself a fan or not." But, that one never really felt complete. Something felt off.
"There's no such thing as a bad fan"? Of course there are. I just talked about how awful these people are who gatekeep others from the fandom. How I could I in good conscience make the claim that no one can be a bad fan when I clearly admonish that kind of behavior?

by definition, a fan of something is someone that admires said something, so in other words, merely enjoying something part of the Touhou franchise

I didn't agree with this. I liked the sentiment, but just as you said, it felt incomplete. But you got me questioning; thinking about what was missing from it. I've enjoyed things that I never considered myself a fan of. Hell, even within Touhou, I had been engorged with content for well over a month before I could consider myself a fan. Tons of games and fangames, animations, music, art; I saw so much, and I loved all of (most of) it, but I never really wanted to tell people I was a fan.
And then FDF II happened, and before you say anything, I know. "Mom!!! SoundOfRayne's jerking off FDF II again!!!" Okay, I get it. FDF II is special to me and I won't shut up about it. But that's just it. It's special to me, and I wanted to share that with other people. Up until that point, enjoying Touhou was for me and me alone. No girls allowed! But, this one was different. Not because I liked it the best, but because for the first time, I wanted to share how I felt about it with other people.

And that's the conclusion I've reached. "What makes someone a [Touhou] fan?" When your enjoyment of something extends beyond yourself, that's when you're a fan.

Is that answer broad as all hell? Oh, you bet it is! "How far beyond yourself do you have to get to be a 'real' fan?" Doesn't matter! Do you like playing the games and competing for score? You're a fan. Do you like looking up cool artwork of cute girls? You're a fan. Do you like scrolling through comment sections or forums to hear what other people have to say about "whatever Touhou?" You're a fan. Hell, do you just like sending memes about the plushie of a stupid ice fairy? You're still a fan even if I don't wanna admit it.
Is it all positive? Of course not. We've had plenty of discussions here that were plenty critical of things inside and outside of the fandom. Being a fan of something doesn't mean you have to love everything about it. Making people feel welcome to talk about not just what they like, but what they don't, is the mark of a healthy community.

And then we wrap it back around to the gatekeepers: a genuine, bona fide bad fan. Gatekeepers don't wanna share things. They want to cut the conversations off; keep the riff-raff out; keep things from changing so that the fandom stays centered around them and what they like. The worst part is that the things that they like are still in the fandom. Older games still have their dedicated fans. People still "play for score." Canon is still being explored and discussed. It's just not the only thing. Arguably, it never was. But rather than try and connect with their kindred spirits, they just try and force everyone else out. To what end? To make it easier to find people who think like they do? I don't have the answer to that.

And, @CountVonNumenor, I need to correct something from my previous post. I said before that you weren't a bad Touhou fan, and that was seriously understating things. 
Over the last year, you've brought a lot of people together on the forums. You've brought debates and critiques and passions out of people. I've tried to enjoy the Shrine's Discord, but I doubt I'll ever be able to feel comfortable in it. These forums feel like a home to me to be able to express myself on my own terms. I wouldn't be surprised if others felt the same way. And even now, we've got someone new to jump in for something that you started. (Welcome to the Shrine @EerieCrypts, by the way.) Dude, if that's not evidence of a good Touhou fan, I don't know what is. I don't really like being sappy about it, but it feels fitting to close out the year. Don't let other people's arbitrary standards get you down. You're absolutely appreciated here.

 

[Sci]

Oh yeah forgot to mention; as funny as that "degeneration of a fanbase" picture is, that is quite literally what happened to the 100% Orange Juice fandom. Gosh I miss the old days.

 

[EerieCrypts]

Actually, there is some bad fan and it’s the ones who are claiming that liking this character or this franchise is a sin. Like in the Dragon Ball fandom, some people would like to kick me if I say that I prefer Dragon Ball GT more than Dragon Ball Z, the people I’m talking about are 100% bad fans because they don’t let me or some other person love what they want, they just want everyone to like the same thing…

So to put it in a nutshell, according to me, bad fans exist and they are the one who are oppressing the whole fandom by forcing them to think the same thing and like the same stuff 

You are correct in that, I suppose I phrased it in a bad way. I'm part of many fandoms full of gatekeepers and less than nice people who I could call many things, and it just seems so ultimately pointless. People are going to enjoy what they enjoy, even if they're pushed out of the community, I don't see the point in that regard, in trying to feel superior by saying "you can't engage with us because you like this thing I like in a way that's different than the way I do."

I got into Touhou because of the gacha, ultimately. I had interest before, but the gacha made me take the dive, and I've still got a lot to explore but I'm loving every second of it. I won't let someone tell me I'm less of a fan of the franchise just because I happened to have jumped in because of a mobile game. That would just be ridiculous.

I think the bottom line of this entire thing, is that bad fans exist, but those bad apples (pun intended) should be tossed aside for the people that actually bring something to the table for the fandom as a whole. Even if that something is as small as a smile on the face of another fan, or a thought provoking discussion. 

 

[Isaac]

Come on man! Why did you watch something filthy and unholy? It's just disappointing.

It doesn't sound like he actively searches for that content. Count was just sharing how desensitized he got after being exposed to it on certain sites. Sure he might have enjoyed some of the less sexual stuff, but I dont think it's enough to make him disappointing either. I also think talking about the experience was necessary to add to the point of whether he was a bad fan or not. Happy new year by the way!

 

[Isaac]

It is still bad, because the negative affect of watching these sinful contents. 

I completely understand. I was nearly addicted to this sort of stuff in the Genshin community a few years ago. It was hard to avoid when there's so much nsfw and suggestive content on pixiv and twitter. I felt like I was losing the reasons why I found the characters interesting to begin with. I'm sorry if you thought that I was saying something negative against you.

 

[_.Mevs]

In my personal opinion: The bad fans are the ones that try to categorize other fans because of what they like or what they have did about something

Look, i have friends that i presented Touhou to, and i'm not a veteran or nothing, i only played some of the games and the first Touhous i've beaten were fangames like Thousand Night Anamnesis and Touhou Fantasia

For me, Touhou stopped being just a game a long ago, nowadays it is a whole universe, the people i presented Touhou to haven't beaten any of the games but look, some know even more than i know about it, and look, is a universe just like Pokemon and that stuff, i barely saw a Pokemon fan that played the games or even watched the animes, but they really like the whole Pokemon universe, like, what categorize if you are or not a true fan? Exactly, only you, you know it the way you know, and the same goes to other people, like i said in the fanon vs canon thread, people can like any shit, it goes in their taste, and if they wanna know more about it, they can just search for it

Like, i'm into Touhou for 2 months already and my friends that joined the community some weeks ago talk a lot about it and we can talk perfectly about the Touhou universe, people that categorize other people because of what they know about something aren't nothing more than brainless people living in their own shells where what they know is a standard that everyone else should follow

Touhou is more than a game as i said, just look at that, hundreds and hundreds of characters, various kinds of games and fangames, figures and a lot of arts and even TV shows, like, what would be a true fan when there's thousands of stuff to like about Touhou? In the mid of everything into Touhou, if you like the fighting games, the bullet hell games, the animes or even the fanmade mangas and books, what matters? The important is that you like it, i started getting into Touhou thanks to fumos and what makes me someone with a "lower fan level"?

The only thing that separates if you're a true fan or not, is what those shitheads put in their own minds, there's not a testament or anything you have to do to join the Touhou community

Sorry if i said anything wrong btw!

View attachment 2973

 

[Nekoko]

I just wanted to add that : it’s not because you don’t know everything about a franchise that you can’t be considered as a true fan of it.

According to me a fan is also someone who enjoy discovering some new stuff or informations about a franchise they like, so it’s okay to not know everything of it since it always takes time to know and understand the franchise at 100% :3

So to sum up my point, showing an interest on Touhou story and characters because you love understanding/discovering stuff about the franchise makes you a (true) fan 

By the way I’m insisting on this point because, when I saw the "degradation of a fanbase" drawing I’ve just remembered about the existence of some cosplayers who pretend to be Touhou (or any other franchise) fans but don’t give a sh*t about the story and characters… can we call them bad fans anyway ???

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Happy New Year everyone! 

Holy shit, it looks like I have a lot of things to reply to. So, where do I start from...

Never a simple post with you, huh Count?
Just as I'm trying to write up a response to the Memories of Phantasm post, I get the notification for this. Well, this topic's a little more important. So, I've read through it all pretty quickly, and I've got some pretty strong feelings on the matter.

Well, I guess that is just the way I like my threads - challenging and thought-provoking. I always enjoy having a talk to people, and see the way they interpret different aspects of the world and what is going on (in our case right here, talk about the Touhou community and the quality of being a member of it). The entire "us vs them/the others" segment from the first reply has been very interesting (I will totally not further analyze it, or at least keep it in mind given the nature of what I am studying in university, where I do have bits of psychology and sociology among others).

It doesn't matter how you consume content, whether it's a gacha, or a fan game you particularly enjoy, or even if you only like one game in the series. Hell, even if you just like the characters and fan animations, you're a fan. If you want to engage in the parts of the community you find fun, then go ahead and do it, and don't let any single person tell you that you're a bad fan for doing so. That's my take.

Thank you very much. And yet, there are people who really acting like the "Morality Police" that will judge things in accordance to their own standards of what makes someone fit into a group or not. 

On separate note, I consider the switch of DanKagu from a gacha game to a... non-gacha game an improvement. Yeah, the fact that whatever people achieved in the gacha version is lost forever sucks, but that's the problem with "games as service" as a whole, and shouldn't really be used against the standalone release of DanKagu.

Yeah, honestly I am very glad for the fact they managed to move from one platform to another. Maybe a 1-purchase formula, without other unnecessary IAPs would help them maintain the game afloat, and perhaps wash out some of the bad reputation associated with the gacha past? They still need to gain money to run and update the game from something, and I really hope they can find a way to do that which will not involve gacha. 

Actually, there is some bad fan and it’s the ones who are claiming that liking this character or this franchise is a sin. Like in the Dragon Ball fandom, some people would like to kick me if I say that I prefer Dragon Ball GT more than Dragon Ball Z, the people I’m talking about are 100% bad fans because they don’t let me or some other person love what they want, they just want everyone to like the same thing…

Honesty, I believe that is no longer jus being a bad fan. I would even call that bullying if one cannot let people enjoy a franchise for all that it has to offer. there are some who will religiously defend a piece of media coming from said franchise, while others will also try to religiously impose their favorite piece as the "one true/best of them all". Which usually does not end up well if people get into harassing others just for having a different way of thinking. That is why pluralism exists, people have different opinions, preferences and points of view. One can't just shove his own views down the throat of the others just because he considers his series to be subjectively better.

Personally, I never had to deal with people calling me a bad fan, mainly because I didn't interact with other fans up until I found this forum. Well, there was this one guy on a Discord server I am in, but his messages and memes were either very political, suggestive, or sometimes straight up offensive, but that isn't what this thread is about.

Just out of curiosity. I know you are also Romanian, just like me. Does it happen that you have met the Romanian Touhou community and their own Discord server? Romanians, at least from my experience meeting them online, seem to be rather unhinged at times and perhaps go a little far with their jokes, no matter the topic. 

You know what the fandom gatekeepers are. A bunch of people that judge people based on how and why they enjoy the series. For them, this is how it goes: "Oh, you didn't clear all the games on lunatic with a score bigger than 1 billion? Shame on you.", "You are telling me that you actually like a character from Touhou 6, 7 or 8? Go fuck yourself." (God forbid you tell them that you like a character from 6), "You play Lost Word? We don't want you here.", and so on. They think that they are holy knights sent by ZUN to cleanse the fandom from "fake" Touhou fans. I sometimes wonder what is the thought process behind their actions.

Yeah, I am quite aware of what gatekeepers are. I actually addressed the issue somewhere through the spring of last year. They are that kind of people who really feel like they can suck out the enjoyment out of anything with how vocal and sometimes entitled they want to feel as. But I guess these kind of people will be everywhere, no matter how much you might be trying to run from them.

Like you said, Touhou has something for everyone. You like cute girls? There is plenty of them. Fancy something dark in your life, we also have that. Enjoy mythology? Touhou is riddled with it. Are you more of a fan of fighters than shmups? Well, you're in luck. And those are just some examples of what the series has to offer.

This is exactly what I was saying in the opening post of the thread. There are so many things you can pick from when it comes to Touhou, and this is probably one of the things that helped me stick with it for so long. At the time when  discovered Touhou, I already went through a few communities that year (in 2020, my focus shifted from Warhammer 40K to SMG4, then to Meta Runner, then Rhythm Heaven, then I had a brief Vocaloid phase just before finally landing in the realm of Touhou, where I am up to this day). Compared to some other of my original fandoms of interest (Lord of the Rings, Star Wars and Warhammer), they now feel extremely different because there is no such strong fanon culture outside memes, nobody comes up with their interpretations since you have a rigid canon, there are very few fan works compared to Touhou (many times due to the IP holders and the copyright - looking at you, Tolkien Estate, Disney/Lucasfilm and Games Workshop/Black Library/ForgeWorld), therefore you may not find as many things created by fans as in the case of Touhou. Therefore, I greatly appreciate the creative freedom given to the fans, as well as the great variety of things to pick from.

There's a lot I can say on this topic but maybe later, my brain battery is low right now.
Most importantly... You might wanna talk to me or a staff member if you have your qualms with my server. I'm not unapproachable, and prefer that people feel welcome. I'm just not looking at the place 24/7 due to real life.

Oh, thank you for the intervention. Goof to know all of this. If there is anything, I will make sure to contact you.

And, @CountVonNumenor, I need to correct something from my previous post. I said before that you weren't a bad Touhou fan, and that was seriously understating things. 
Over the last year, you've brought a lot of people together on the forums. You've brought debates and critiques and passions out of people. I've tried to enjoy the Shrine's Discord, but I doubt I'll ever be able to feel comfortable in it. These forums feel like a home to me to be able to express myself on my own terms. I wouldn't be surprised if others felt the same way. And even now, we've got someone new to jump in for something that you started. (Welcome to the Shrine @EerieCrypts, by the way.) Dude, if that's not evidence of a good Touhou fan, I don't know what is. I don't really like being sappy about it, but it feels fitting to close out the year. Don't let other people's arbitrary standards get you down. You're absolutely appreciated here.

Thank you wholeheartedly. These are probably some of the most heart-warming words I have received in 2022. I was reading this comment just a bit after the beginning of the new year, and it really made my night much better, knowing that maaaybe I actually did bring a contribution to making Touhou a better place for everyone. And that is something I am really looking to do through 2023 as well, as much as I can. Thread by thread, discussion by discussion. Also funny enough, the experience until now has actually made me start considering more and more a future carrer in article writing, as I like both writing teaching people about things, especially teach them about things I am very passionate.

But as long as I can contribute in making the Touhou community a more welcoming place for everyone, I think that will always be the greatest win. I was not expecting, two years ago, to go from just having joined a fandom I was not so sure how long will I stick with given my evolution up to that point, to writing related topics with strong passion and actually make people be curious and stuck with us through this journey. But I guess life always ends up up in unexpected places, and chances to do things can always appear. Anyway, I am glad of the way things have been going until now, for as long as I have been a member of the Touhou community. And I really wish all the best for everyone who is already here, as well as anyone who wants to join. 

Wow, going from doubting at one point your place to actually being regarded as a positive element of it is a strange feeling, as I rather rarely get praised for this kind of things such as being dedicated to something I like. 

Come on man! Why did you watch something filthy and unholy? It's just disappointing.

Honestly, I am not really sure how to answer. All I can say is that it is one thing to actively go search for unholy content, and another one is to end up seeing it de to the nature of the image board. Using Danbooru as a source for images has its own risks and rewards. On the positive, more image than on Safebooru. On the negative, you end up inadvertedly seeing inappropriate content. And a full year of use, one may go from absolute shock to desensitization (which in itself can be just as much of a scary thing). I will be completely honest, I am no saint. But if I really wanted to go look something like that up, there are better, more dedicated places than Danbooru (since Touhou is leaving its mark absolutely everywhere online). It is not like I am almost 21, never have been in a relationship, and basically am the perfect target for content of that nature. So, if that makes me a bad fan, so be it. 

For me, Touhou stopped being just a game a long ago, nowadays it is a whole universe, the people i presented Touhou to haven't beaten any of the games but look, some know even more than i know about it, and look, is a universe just like Pokemon and that stuff, i barely saw a Pokemon fan that played the games or even watched the animes, but they really like the whole Pokemon universe, like, what categorize if you are or not a true fan? Exactly, only you, you know it the way you know, and the same goes to other people, like i said in the fanon vs canon thread, people can like any shit, it goes in their taste, and if they wanna know more about it, they can just search for it

I am feeling just the same about Touhou. It has long transcended the realm of a game series I was clumsily trying to explain to my best friend when I first discovered. Now, it is a full land of eternal possibilities, where there is anyone for everyone to enjoy. To me, Touhou is more than just the sum of 18 main games and a few more games with funny decimal numbers, accompanied by a few manga series. To me, it also contains the entirety of the community, its creative spirit, the discussions between people no matter the topic (lore, gameplay, fan culture or just the latest fan game/song of a music circle). This is probably one of those series that just cannot die, and will always survive in one form or another. If someone said long ago that after a nuclear fallout, the only thing that will survive are the rats and cockroaches, i would probably add Touhou somewhere in there too. This series just feels way too big to kill, and if you try to cut one of its heads, a few more will appear. 

By the way I’m insisting on this point because, when I saw the "degradation of a fanbase" drawing I’ve just remembered about the existence of some cosplayers who pretend to be Touhou (or any other franchise) fans but don’t give a sh*t about the story and characters… can we call them bad fans anyway ???

I guess that just happens, especially if said cosplayers are not loyal to just one series and instead just dress as whatever is popular at the time. I have talked about something similar in the thread about the migration of artists towards other series, people of which I chose to brand as "mercenaries" back then. Artists have also migrated to other series, probably a very common example I have seen and heard of being the migration from Touhou to Kancolle, but my take is that those who really are loyal and dedicated to the series will stay, whole the rest will further migrate for as long as they consider profitable, or will finally discover a series they can identify with and will finally settle in. 

 

[AlexandruUnu]

Just out of curiosity. I know you are also Romanian, just like me. Does it happen that you have met the Romanian Touhou community and their own Discord server? Romanians, at least from my experience meeting them online, seem to be rather unhinged at times and perhaps go a little far with their jokes, no matter the topic.  

No. I'm not one for joining many servers, so I didn't join any Touhou-related server. The only time I ever saw other Romanian Touhou fans was in the comment section of The Doll Maker of București. As for Romanians on the internet being unhinged, I haven't seen that many unhinged Romanians, a good chunk of them being actually chill people.

 

[buskerdog]

I have a few more ideas for fan games, but I never ended up sticking with them. My Steam library has a section for free Touhou fan games, yet they still wait to be played. In it, there is stuff like Hina-Chan 2nd Break, Servants of Harvest Wish, Perfect Memento of Touhou Question and Touhou Mystery Reel. Out of all these titles, Touhou Mystery Reel is the only one I have actually played until now. And it convinced me of two things: 1) I suck at platform games and 2) I suck at fighting games. But more on that in my eventual discussion about looking for a Touhou themed game to enjoy...

If Touhou Mystery Reel is your first experience of platformers, let me just tell you that it's a very janky game. Please don't let that one game put you off the genre, because there are other games, Touhou and otherwise, that are much more cohesive in design and feel better to control. Mystery Reel is mostly interesting for being experimental, and while I did like playing the first stage, the second level sold me on the conclusion that the idea wasn't that good.

As for fighting games... well, I wouldn't categorise Mystery Reel as a fighting game, despite how the bosses can feel. But if you do decide to explore fighting games, well, just make sure you go into it with the understanding that it's not an easy genre to get into, and everyone sucks at them if they haven't got significant experience. TBH I'd like to get into fighters more but I can't make the commitment... and also can't find a controller that feels good to play them on

Anyway, if you do decide to make a new discussion on this then I suppose I'll see you there!

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Anyway, if you do decide to make a new discussion on this then I suppose I'll see you there!

Oh, I am definitely planning to write that thread soon. Thank you in advance for wishing to join the conversation 

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Thank you very much. And yet, there are people who really acting like the "Morality Police" that will judge things in accordance to their own standards of what makes someone fit into a group or not. 

Honestly, I was hoping  we would not come back to this so quickly, but since my presence and mention of specific materials has been called out recently as a negative example towards the forum and community as a whole, I think I might be coming back soon with a declaration. Until that, I have some more issues to solve irl first