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Can ZUN draw a mature/adult-looking character?

CountVonNumenor

CountVonNumenor

Onshi
(Repost from r/touhou found here)
https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou/comments/wq9ich/can_zun_draw_a_matureadultlooking_character/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

I really do not want to insult his art style. There is something unique about it, and represents one of the defining features for the Touhou games. My question is coming from reading the notes ZUN wrote for his miscellaneous drawings, particularly the commentary for "Zun008.JPG" (dated 20/05/2001, so from the pre-EoSD era). The English translated version is from the wiki:

slaexx32x5i91.jpg


Translated Name: Blonde Shrine Maiden From a Future Era

I wanted to draw a "poster shrine maiden."
My original concept was to truly draw a sultry, adult-looking shrine maiden for once.
No, really. (^^;
But it turned out to be a young girl. (lol)
It's just that since I was drawing a poster girl, I wanted something that would grab and entice
with vivid colors and a subtle expression on the girl.
But I guess it's a pointless picture. (^^;
 

As seen, apparently ZUN wanted to represent a mature-looking character. However, it ended up looking much younger than planned. Since that is old, quite possibly outdated information, has he managed to improve on that? Can he now finally draw an adult character, or he is pretty much defined into the style that defines him and his work?

 
I decided to look at all the portraits of characters from 1-18 and the only ones I could see that actually looked like adults are kanako and raiko of all characters (and even kanako looks like she has some baby fat on her cheeks) meanwhile raiko looks straight up like a young adut

 
Honestly given how long he's been doing art for I'd find it really funny if he hasn't drawn a mature male before. I wouldn't doubt it, though.

 
Darksymphony777 said:
raiko looks straight up like a young adut
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If you mean about Raiko looking like a teenager, then I would say so. She does not really look like an adult. Or now we are talking about semantics, and "young adult" is a weird word I tend to associate more with those of the age of 16-18 instead of anything up to the age of 25. Anyway, neither her original art from DDC nor the illustration from Who's Who of Humans and Youkai make her look so much like an adult, at best looking like a young adult. Especially focusing on the ZUN image

Th14Raiko.png


Same rounded features and fat baby cheeks, even if not as obvious as in other images I am gonna show in a bit. Meanwhile, despite not a ZUN illustration, but still an official art (I always feel tempted to bring those in because, even if not drawn by him, are still made based on indications from ZUN if I am not wrong). She looks even more like a child in Who's Who 

Raiko_Whos_Who.png


 
Two  more comments I took notice of from the orignal post of this question:

"Characters like Nemuno, Urumi, and Junko look older than young girls, but they still don't really look like adults to me. I think it's just his art style. He doesn't draw wrinkles or angles. Characters drawn in ZUN style are round and have smooth skin and huge eyes. Those are all features of babies."
 

"I mean look at Byakuren's sprite in UFO, she looks like a tall kid not an actual grown-ass woman. Also take a look at the ZUN's music collections covers. Specifically Changeability of Strange Dream's cover then compare it to 5.5's and Old Bar Adam. The more time passes the younger they look, and they're supposed to be university students..."

unknown.png


unknown.png


unknown.png


unknown.png


Looking at those, yeah, they really do seem to regress in age with each album (pointed out here with the extremes, first two and most recent two CD covers). Maribel and Renko really do look like toddlers on CD 9.5 if you ask me to be honest. I was supposed to get this part of text written many hours ago, but got something on the way and only now did I manage to get back home and write it. 

 
CountVonNumenor said:
If you mean about Raiko looking like a teenager, then I would say so. She does not really look like an adult. Or now we are talking about semantics, and "young adult" is a weird word I tend to associate more with those of the age of 16-18 instead of anything up to the age of 25
Click to expand...
Guess we have different definitions of young adult. She looks like she's in her early 20's to me

 
Darksymphony777 said:
Guess we have different definitions of young adult. She looks like she's in her early 20's to me
Click to expand...
Maybe. To me, Raiko's art (if we mean the cuts one one and not tiny battle sprite),  she really does not look like being in her 20s. Or maybe I'm stuck with the trope (which official Touhou,  as well as fanart sometimes failed to disprove) of everyone looking like being 14-16 (your average anime protagonist age). Maybe fanart did a better job with other images of her,  and it's debatable what age you'd give her based on the cameo sprite from 15.5. But ZUN art? To me,  it still fails to show that age. 

 
CountVonNumenor said:
Maybe. To me, Raiko's art (if we mean the cuts one one and not tiny battle sprite),  she really does not look like being in her 20s. Or maybe I'm stuck with the trope (which official Touhou,  as well as fanart sometimes failed to disprove) of everyone looking like being 14-16 (your average anime protagonist age). Maybe fanart did a better job with other images of her,  and it's debatable what age you'd give her based on the cameo sprite from 15.5. But ZUN art? To me,  it still fails to show that age. 
Click to expand...
and kanako? you never really said anything about her

 
@CountVonNumenor Presumably, you have more experience with/understanding of standard artistic depiction of human features, both in general and in specific relation to age. As such, you are able to analyze Zun's artstyle against said standard and judge it accordingly. I am not so familiar with such standards, and as such I am only capable of viewing this art according to personal perception. I note a wide variety of appearances in the people I see, and as such my association between appearance and age is less defined (additionally, people here are occasionally insecure about their age, discouraging analysis). When I look at Zun's art, the most I perceive is the proportionate depiction of the human figure, and associated aesthetic considerations. I like his art style, and that's about as far as it goes.

 
Darksymphony777 said:
and kanako? you never really said anything about her
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Oh, sorry. Let me look a bit at her portrait from MoF:

Th10KanakoYasaka.png


I am not so sure what to say specifically about her ZUN art depiction. The only thing coming to my mind is "extremely fluffy hair". But year, she looks a bit like a tall girl. 

Ken Hisuag said:
Presumably, you have more experience with/understanding of standard artistic depiction of human features, both in general and in specific relation to age.
Click to expand...
Just a bit. I am not much better than you when it comes to that. Especially since I fail big time when I try to guess ages even in real life when it comes to other people. Again, I do not hate the ZUN art -  there are some illustrations of his I absolutely love. I was however wondering given the notes he gave on that illustration from 2001, especially since it does not look like he has made any similar comment ever since. 

 
actually i feel like 18.5 marisa feels like older than she was represented before, maybe not as adult but like:

256px-Th185cover.png


she has longer hair, seems a little taller to me as well

considering we've seen reimu and marisa as kids in 98 era and as teenagers (technically) in current era we might at some point eventually see them reaching adulthood as well

 
Shionne Imeris said:
actually i feel like 18.5 Marisa feels like older than she was represented before, maybe not as adult but like:



she has longer hair, seems a little taller to me as well
Click to expand...
She does look slightly longer than usual in this image. Besides, the more washed away shade of yellow on her hair is in interesting choice. However, I still cannot fully go away from the rounded, fat shapes of the head and huge bug eyes characteristic to ZUN's art. She is still slightly flat-chested, but it is still slightly more than what he used to draw in the past. 

Shionne Imeris said:
considering we've seen Reimu and Marisa as kids in 98 era and as teenagers (technically) in current era we might at some point eventually see them reaching adulthood as well
Click to expand...
Yeah, that has to be a bigger change. They almost look like completely different characters once making the transition from PC-98 to the Windows era. As if the whole series got rebooted or something... Is that why people suppose the two of them were age 10 at the time of EoSD (or was that during the PC-98 canon era)?

 
adzi said:
hmmm

can they drink sake?
Click to expand...
In Gensokyo, it looks like almost everyone but Sumireko and perhaps a few more can drink sake. We do not know however if they respect the outside world laws when it comes to consuming tobacco and alcohol (most be at least 18 years old), or Gensokyo works on "we don't care, let the kids drink too" (not too far from how it works in Romania too - officially, you have to be 18, but at least until recently, you could often see 14 year old smoking or drinking high alcohol spirit drinks, as small shops did not really care who they sold their products to).

 
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