Why the general hate for anime/modern Japanese pop art & culture?

[CountVonNumenor]

(the disclaimers you will see in the following text come from the original text as it was initially posted in a non-anime forum; things went much better and polite than I expected though, so they were not much needed; also some modifications have been brought up in order to update the original text to new information gathered since January 2021, the time of the initial post)

DISCLAIMER! I wan this thread to be kept as civil as possible, and if possible, to have a reason for making a statement. I am just tired of hate. If I were this in any other place I frequently get into, probably 90% of the time I would get bashed, roasted, made fun of or simply asked to purge it like the degenerate I am (to their eyes).


As an Eastern European with access to the technologies of modern world, I started to find interesting different elements of modern media across the world. But Jesus Christ, what is all the hate for anime (and sometimes Japan in general)? It is something I never understood, as my stance on the topic of anime is that I am neutral, neither hating nor loving it. To me, I see it just as a style that looks interesting to draw, and that's it. At least in my case, I have never seen a reason to hate something if I had no idea what it is/how it works, or just because it is not on my taste. To say it is not your cup of tea, sure, go for it. But to blindly hate on something and call it degeneracy without offering a serious reason for an extreme view, that is something I find more difficult to digest. Whenever someone posts even the most innocent anime-related thing, he just either gets joked on with the so called ”anime police - arrested for degeneracy”, verbally or through memes hit with a bonk or called names. I used to be somehow in the situation of banishing those who posted Japanese media long ago, but I feel things changed quite a lot as I grew up and got more access to the world. It is very ironic that an animation/art style that basically evolved from the Western animation style (long story short, the first ”anime” cartoons were basically created after some Japanese artists watched American animation films starring Bettie Boop, and got to love the style, if I am not wrong regarding the story) grew to such fame, or maybe infamy - depending on how you see it. Again, not liking something because it is not on your taste is alright. But hating it without a clear reason, that is something I find hard to process, if not outright frustrating depending on my mood when I encounter such a situation. I feel like I am forgetting something, but I am not sure what is it.... Or I am just a fool who is slowly turning into a filthy weeb? Also, should I be ashamed of myself if I say I do not hate this genre?


DISCLAIMER#2: I do realize Japanese culture is not just anime (and more or less of a joke, FilthyFrank covered the topic of weaboos quite well years ago, especially how to make the difference between someone who just like an animation genre and those who believe themselves to be Japanese even if they are not). I had the chance to learn more about their old art recently, and got a bit of curiosity about culture, traditions and history (currently trying to understand the ancient times and everything until the Heian period). Things like the game series Touhou just made me more curious to learn about the story behind legends and myths that inspired certain themes, characters and other elements of the series.

DISCLAIMER#2.5: SasaMisa, please keep it calm. Last time we talked about the Touhou fans being horny, we had a bit of a rough start. So please, let's start it a little better this time. 

I always found it interesting how Japanese art went from this...

American Civil War era depiction of the conflict realized by Japanese artist (mid 19th century) - Even if not as old, these are Japanese depictions from the 1860 of the American Civil War. From what I found out, I think Japanese reporters, or at least artists have witnessed the war, and made several images like this one. And to be fair, I really like this art style. It is something very different, if not unique compared to most of what I am used to (and it actually looks very cool if you ask me)

Spoiler

...to this (used a random example found on a Discord server I am part of and its "waifu-posting" channel; also no offense towards the artist himself), There is something that feels very streamline about it, as if I saw the same thing about a million times now. I actually did have a conversation on the matter on modern Japanese art, and somehow her rambling on the matter ended up like this (also after I showed her some of the official Touhou art):
 

On a personal note, I think that's fucking weird. But setting that aside, my answer for that is the same as anything: If you enjoy doing that, great do it. But that is not a goal in and of itself. If you don't enjoy using art to worship 2D tit-sticks, simply don't.

[...]

Also... I think you don't realize quite what Japan considers sexy ^^' Because childlike designs like that are unfortunately quite in vogue. 

[...]

As for the comment on Touhou... Look, that game series 100% is popular because its overwhelmingly straight male fanbase likes fawning over the different girls. There're not really people so much as stylized art that appears on screen a few times, and people like to gather and pick out their favorites to draw and put in art compositions like a few people I know. They're there to be collected, like dolls or cards or Pokemon.

Also, while the west associates certain features with womanhood, Japan doesn't associate all the same ones. Elegance is a big thing in western depictions of femininity, but Japan favors a "cutesy", childlike aesthetic - which it bleeds into dodgy pedophilia territory sometimes, and why there's so many anime girls who are 3000-year-old dragons in the shape of a young child. So Touhou girls looking like dolls is to appeal to that cutesy aesthetic. It's not to avoid folks drooling over them...very much the opposite. And to be clear, I'm not saying that's why you in particular like this series. I'm not even saying that's necessarily what the dev intended. I'm saying that that is overwhelmingly why it is popular. Because it's doll Pokemon.

Which also raises a few questions:

1) why did we even end up with this entire art style the way it looks nowadays? I would like to understand the transition from (an attempted) realism towards the "cutesy" and "moe" we are so used today
2) how did the whole thing evolve to be the way it is nowadays?
3) why does it look so appealing? it sometimes feels like it was created to be as cute or downright attractive (in all ways possible)
4) why is the doll proportion such a recurring theme in the art? (usually, going around the 6 heads height compared the more regular 8-9 heads tall propotion)
5) besides the odd proportions, why does everyone look like they are severely underaged? sometimes, I feel like like the only thing they try for making them look aged up is to stretch the length of their legs and give big boobs to the character (I was actually surprised the latter is also done in American superhero comics too)

At the time of the original post, I did add a drawing (signed December 2020 - my first drawing of Reimu and first to use the digital tablet) that was freshly made too. Here is the caption it came with: 

"And something I have made in manga style (or at least inspiration), in order to show this whole genre is not just about naughty stuff and sexualized, ambiguously aged people as some may think and can be justified (though lets be fair, I do not think us, in the West, are much better than them - everyone will draw naughty stuff at some point, just that ours are so much in the open/visible to everyone), but can be used for some good stuff too"

 

[Alia Khin]

Caution: dumb and bloated text below. I tried my best to write it and don't know English much. Sorry if it's not easy to understand.
It's just a few words about human psychology actually.
Human kind always founds something to hate at usually it is something different from the original culture or group attributes.
All of this is not new: In almost every Goethe's fiction works, in even ancient text from Greece you can find exactly same hate or oppression (actually you will find whole bunch of modern things in old books like "New generation is wrong and dumber because they don't doing [insert word]", "Anyone who don't know what is [insert word] is a fool", "If you like [insert word] - you are degenerate", etc.). Just topics and entities changes for thousands years.
It both local and global phenomenon. Hate to anime or Japanese notable culture will simply fall of with time and will be displaced with hate to something else. Now even Warhammer have it's own anime. People will get used to it, hating "all Japanese" will be not in trend, or all of those who was caught in motion just grew up and next generations will have something else in mind to make fun of. People will always find an enemy in their head and will group up against it. It happened countless times in all cultures from just local tribes to planet-wide socium and will happen to what you described too.

 

[buskerdog]

My perception is that the hate for anime has nothing to do with the artstyle and everything to do with over-the-top voice acting, ridiculous stories and odd manner of speaking (even for Japanese people, anime characters do not talk normally). At least that's always been the way I've seen it, as me and my friends have made "anime bad" jokes in jest before. And I mean it makes sense, because those characteristics are very easy to parody and ridicule, with how unique they are to anything else. That, and anime fans who try to embody those characteristics way too seriously, I mean just look at the "I have the power of god AND anime on my side!" meme, the thing that makes it funny has nothing to do with how the characters from said medium are drawn and everything to do with some kid trying way too hard to act like an anime character. The thing that makes anime hated is not the art form itself but the tropes associated with it, particularly shonen anime. Since shonen is an especially popular genre of anime outside of Japan, most people who aren't knowledgeable of anime are going to assume that all anime has tropes like what shonen has.

A lot of stigma surrounding anime can also come from the association with hentai, since many anime (including you guessed it, shonen) do have a lot of sexualisation, but it all depends on the type of show. For every anime with risqué character designs and innuendos there are just as many where the tone of the story would make such a thing incomprehensible.

For the record, I'm not much of an anime watcher. Do I hate anime? Well given what I've just written and what forum I'm even writing this on, no obviously I don't. But all that being said... I have heard of some animes before that made me go "who wrote this??? The only thing this seems good for is laughing at how absurd it is". Not an expert on the anime industry, but I do wonder if it might be oversaturated with a certain amount of crap content? But at the same time people who don't care for anime aren't going to hear about that, so it's probably not relevant to the conversation.

So in summary:

-People don't like OTT

-It can be horny, and people like to exaggerate that and immediately draw a parallel to hentai

-There's also just the general overlap with geek and nerd culture. Just because video games are borderline mainstream now doesn't mean other forms of geek culture are also accepted by everyone

People who dislike Japanese pop culture in general are probably just people who use anime as their basis for all of their assumptions about Japan.

 

[ACE_DEUCE]

Also, while the west associates certain features with womanhood, Japan doesn't associate all the same ones. Elegance is a big thing in western depictions of femininity, but Japan favors a "cutesy", childlike aesthetic - which it bleeds into dodgy pedophilia territory sometimes, and why there's so many anime girls who are 3000-year-old dragons in the shape of a young child.

This is probably one of the least educated takes I've seen on this specific matter thus far. The main problem is that the reason that this type of character is prevalent is somehow framed as some Japan-exclusive psychological thing regarding femininity and underlying "dodgy pedophilia" (????) that's being manifested. If some underlying real-life attraction towards "cutesy and childlike" is what this is based on, then I'm afraid we'd be seeing it worldwide:

[...] men were shown pictures of females without being informed of their age. The men were asked if they found each girl sexually desirable or not. Girls about 14 got the highest ratings. [...] Male participants’ age range was 18–40 years.

(Even girls as young as 12 outclassed women above the age of 21)

I don't mean to insult your compadre but I'd advise that they cool it with the armchair anthropology and psychoanalysis. Sexual attraction specifically is not at the root of every human interaction and creation.

1) why did we even end up with this entire art style the way it looks nowadays? I would like to understand the transition from (an attempted) realism towards the "cutesy" and "moe" we are so used today
2) how did the whole thing evolve to be the way it is nowadays?

Probably for the same reasons western art went from this to this. Art doesn't evolve in a linear manner, and a variety of factors (ranging from different cultural inputs to even possibly very minor genetic structure differences) will influence said evolution. There's still art being made in Japan by Japanese people that isn't in the "anime style" and while I don't live in Japan I'd say it's a safe bet to assume it's just as well received among the general public, but just might not be as popular an export. It just sort of fits the medium, doesn't it? Simpler shapes, overly expressive faces, proportions that allow for very loose and dynamic movement etc. etc.

Let's also not forget that one of the first popular serialized manga series (as well as among the first televised anime series) was Astro Boy. It began publishing not too long after the nuclear attacks on Japan during WW2, meant to (among other things) show the brilliant potential of positively harnessed nuclear power as well as mankind's need to be responsible with it. One would think that making Atom a sincere, innocent and cutesy character would make the readers more easily fond of him thus making it easier to interface with the story despite the tough subject matter. (There's probably a lot more things that play into this too and I'd hate to wrongly deliver information based on my surface level analysis, I'm no expert and I suggest anyone interested do their own research)

3) why does it look so appealing? it sometimes feels like it was created to be as cute or downright attractive (in all ways possible)
4) why is the doll proportion such a recurring theme in the art? (usually, going around the 6 heads height compared the more regular 8-9 heads tall propotion)
5) besides the odd proportions, why does everyone look like they are severely underaged? sometimes, I feel like like the only thing they try for making them look aged up is to stretch the length of their legs and give big boobs to the character (I was actually surprised the latter is also done in American superhero comics too)

Assuming we're talking exclusively about character designs intentionally made to be moe (and thus exlucing manga series like Lupin, Kaiji, HnK etc. etc. though moe is a very broad term and can even be applied to characters within those, just not in the way you might think), it's just that physical characteristics which humans find cute (if you look at Konrad Lorenz's categorization of cuteness in living things, you'll find that a lot of the attributes described there match up with what you're talking about) are the easiest ways to invoke affection. And having your readers/viewers/whatever feel affection towards your characters is the easiest way to proliferate any work of fiction, be it for monetary gain or otherwise (there are actually interesting studies on the commercialization of moe in Japan specifically).

As for people hating it, give 'em another decade or two. Perhaps in a different time on an old message board there was a thread titled "Why the general hate for video games?"

 

[buskerdog]

This is probably one of the least educated takes I've seen on this specific matter thus far. The main problem is that the reason that this type of character is prevalent is somehow framed as some Japan-exclusive psychological thing regarding femininity and underlying "dodgy pedophilia" (????) that's being manifested. If some underlying real-life attraction towards "cutesy and childlike" is what this is based on, then I'm afraid we'd be seeing it worldwide:

(Even girls as young as 12 outclassed women above the age of 21)

I don't mean to insult your compadre but I'd advise that they cool it with the armchair anthropology and psychoanalysis. Sexual attraction specifically is not at the root of every human interaction and creation.

Probably for the same reasons western art went from this to this. Art doesn't evolve in a linear manner, and a variety of factors (ranging from different cultural inputs to even possibly very minor genetic structure differences) will influence said evolution. There's still art being made in Japan by Japanese people that isn't in the "anime style" and while I don't live in Japan I'd say it's a safe bet to assume it's just as well received among the general public, but just might not be as popular an export. It just sort of fits the medium, doesn't it? Simpler shapes, overly expressive faces, proportions that allow for very loose and dynamic movement etc. etc.

Let's also not forget that one of the first popular serialized manga series (as well as among the first televised anime series) was Astro Boy. It began publishing not too long after the nuclear attacks on Japan during WW2, meant to (among other things) show the brilliant potential of positively harnessed nuclear power as well as mankind's need to be responsible with it. One would think that making Atom a sincere, innocent and cutesy character would make the readers more easily fond of him thus making it easier to interface with the story despite the tough subject matter. (There's probably a lot more things that play into this too and I'd hate to wrongly deliver information based on my surface level analysis, I'm no expert and I suggest anyone interested do their own research)

Assuming we're talking exclusively about character designs intentionally made to be moe (and thus exlucing manga series like Lupin, Kaiji, HnK etc. etc. though moe is a very broad term and can even be applied to characters within those, just not in the way you might think), it's just that physical characteristics which humans find cute (if you look at Konrad Lorenz's categorization of cuteness in living things, you'll find that a lot of the attributes described there match up with what you're talking about) are the easiest ways to invoke affection. And having your readers/viewers/whatever feel affection towards your characters is the easiest way to proliferate any work of fiction, be it for monetary gain or otherwise (there are actually interesting studies on the commercialization of moe in Japan specifically).

As for people hating it, give 'em another decade or two. Perhaps in a different time on an old message board there was a thread titled "Why the general hate for video games?"

^ I like this analysis a lot

 

[Ken Hisuag]

I can't delete this box. I've lost the line outside of it, and now I'm stuck with it. In trying to delete this box, I accidentally shortcut-keyed the post function. I can't delete this post either. Why? Why must I suffer this? I didn't want this. CVN probably didn't either, but now he's going to be notified of it. What am I supposed to do now?

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Anyway,, getting back to the analysis? I definitely need to reply to everyone here once I get back home. Past 3 days have been a marathon of sorts due to having to leave from home and take my college exams 

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Alright, time for my novel-lenght reply to recover my absence for half a week.

Now even Warhammer have it's own anime.

If you can actually consider Hammer & Bolter an animation, despite its PowerPoint slide-show quality for which you have to pay subscription, then yeah, I guess Warhammer did get an animated series.  

My perception is that the hate for anime has nothing to do with the artstyle and everything to do with over-the-top voice acting, ridiculous stories and odd manner of speaking (even for Japanese people, anime characters do not talk normally). At least that's always been the way I've seen it, as me and my friends have made "anime bad" jokes in jest before.

Interesting, because these are exactly the reasons I have heard most of the time when it comes to why anime is getting so much hate (or at least is received as insufferable)

(I fucked up the keyboards and accidentally sent the reply, therefore I need to write a second reply to continue my story - this is what happens when I write and am feeling very tired, accidents happen)

 

[CountVonNumenor]

That, and anime fans who try to embody those characteristics way too seriously, I mean just look at the "I have the power of god AND anime on my side!" meme, the thing that makes it funny has nothing to do with how the characters from said medium are drawn and everything to do with some kid trying way too hard to act like an anime character.

Indeed, even the phrase you have mentioned in itself, sounds funny when you take it as a meme in itself, never having to actually face it in real life. It becomes a bit ludicrous though when you actually have to face someone who decided to unironically scream that sentence. I guess at some point we all want to emulate our favorite cartoon heroes, be them from Western cartoons or anime.

The thing that makes anime hated is not the art form itself but the tropes associated with it, particularly shonen anime. Since shonen is an especially popular genre of anime outside of Japan, most people who aren't knowledgeable of anime are going to assume that all anime has tropes like what shonen has.

Very much this. This is indeed quite a bit of a thing when you ask people why the dislike anime. I am not very familiar with the classifications and tropes associated with each type of manga/anime, therefore would love to learn more about that. 

A lot of stigma surrounding anime can also come from the association with hentai, since many anime (including you guessed it, shonen) do have a lot of sexualisation, but it all depends on the type of show. For every anime with risqué character designs and innuendos there are just as many where the tone of the story would make such a thing incomprehensible.

Yes. It might be just the level of the discussion, or my recommendations getting screwed up again, but a decent chunk of the western memes related to anime tend to be about hentai and the more risque side of things. I guess it is pretty much a way of criticizing the different attitude of Japan towards sexuality and what would be a little "too much". Different cultures, different values I guess (that still does not justify some things if they might be morally questionable from the simple point of view of a human being with its rights, freedom and dignity though). 

For the record, I'm not much of an anime watcher. Do I hate anime? Well given what I've just written and what forum I'm even writing this on, no obviously I don't. But all that being said... I have heard of some animes before that made me go "who wrote this??? The only thing this seems good for is laughing at how absurd it is". Not an expert on the anime industry, but I do wonder if it might be oversaturated with a certain amount of crap content? But at the same time people who don't care for anime aren't going to hear about that, so it's probably not relevant to the conversation.

For a similar reason (also rather off-topic from the main thing) is why I enjoy Hellsing Ultimate (Abridged) so much. It is ludicrous, has moments that make you question "who wrote that", but admits that it should not really be taken seriously. In the end, the series becomes a parody in itself, which I actually think was quite enjoyable to watch (also the first time when I could actually stand watching a series with lots of blood and violent deaths, since somehow they were more bearable to watch in balance with the comedic moments  - did the series just become a black comedy without me being aware of that?)

This is probably one of the least educated takes I've seen on this specific matter thus far. The main problem is that the reason that this type of character is prevalent is somehow framed as some Japan-exclusive psychological thing regarding femininity and underlying "dodgy pedophilia" (????) that's being manifested. If some underlying real-life attraction towards "cutesy and childlike" is what this is based on, then I'm afraid we'd be seeing it worldwide:

Again, I would like to put emphasis on the side that this is not my answer, but the one I have received in a conversation about the art direction of Touhou (and anime-ish stuff in general). I think the "dodgy pedophilia" framing might also be coming from the extremely complicated (and messed up) rules in regards to the age of consent in Japan. At least as far as I understood, there are at least 3 different sets of laws, each contradicting the other. On one side, you have the national law  as implemented based on the 1907 Penal Code. On another, you have the local, prefecture level laws which can set the age at whatever they consider, and finally, there can also exist a municipal level law affecting like one city inside the prefecture (so you basically have a law into a law into a law system). I might be wrong, so please correct me on that. And it is now like the general reputation of Japan is that "the age of consent is 13" (but this happens in some special conditions), while a couple below the age of 20 cannot get married unless getting written blessing from the parents. 

As for the "cutesy and childlike" part, I guess this goes into the "moe" category, which deserves in itself an entire discussion. 

[...] men were shown pictures of females without being informed of their age. The men were asked if they found each girl sexually desirable or not. Girls about 14 got the highest ratings. [...] Male participants’ age range was 18–40 years.

(Even girls as young as 12 outclassed women above the age of 21)

I don't mean to insult your compadre but I'd advise that they cool it with the armchair anthropology and psychoanalysis. Sexual attraction specifically is not at the root of every human interaction and creation.

To be fair, information sounds a bit contradictory in this part. The quote says that the subjects preferred the girls over the age of 14. However, in the () part afterwards, you have said that girls of the age of 12 outclassed women of the age of 21. Maybe I understood it wrongly, but can you please elaborate on this part a little bit? I want to clear up my confusion of what is going on. But overall, I guess my discussion colleague preferred the idea that if you wanted a 3000 years old character, then you should at least draw it look old enough - m guess on what was her point when saying that part. 

Probably for the same reasons western art went from this to this. Art doesn't evolve in a linear manner, and a variety of factors (ranging from different cultural inputs to even possibly very minor genetic structure differences) will influence said evolution. There's still art being made in Japan by Japanese people that isn't in the "anime style" and while I don't live in Japan I'd say it's a safe bet to assume it's just as well received among the general public, but just might not be as popular an export. It just sort of fits the medium, doesn't it? Simpler shapes, overly expressive faces, proportions that allow for very loose and dynamic movement etc. etc.

True. I mean the more traditional style of Japanese art still exists (of course). However, my emphasis was on the idea of what is the nation more known for nowadays when it comes to visual arts. Your chance is much greater to have someone tell you "oh, they make that thing called anime" instead of associating Japan with any other style of art. In a simple experiment done at home (although I would rather call my family ignorant, or at least unknowing of the matter), it was much easier for them to recognize and associate anime style with Japan than any other kind of graphic art. 

Assuming we're talking exclusively about character designs intentionally made to be moe (and thus exlucing manga series like Lupin, Kaiji, HnK etc. etc. though moe is a very broad term and can even be applied to characters within those, just not in the way you might think), it's just that physical characteristics which humans find cute (if you look at Konrad Lorenz's categorization of cuteness in living things, you'll find that a lot of the attributes described there match up with what you're talking about) are the easiest ways to invoke affection. And having your readers/viewers/whatever feel affection towards your characters is the easiest way to proliferate any work of fiction, be it for monetary gain or otherwise (there are actually interesting studies on the commercialization of moe in Japan specifically).

Oh, I have heard of Konrad Lorenz quite a long time ago. Thank you for reminding me about his interesting work in the field of behavior study. As for the concept of "moe", it is perfectly fine to exist. Indeed, cute is a thing that attracts people, and makes them start feeling like they want to take care and protect that thing. That's why babies, kittens or any other small and cute animal looks the way it does, in order to stimulate the maternal/paternal instinct of the human to take care of them. I guess the only problem is when you take something cute and noble, and corrupt/pervert it - which I pretty much see as common critique towards Japanese anime art at times that people draw things I would prefer not to describe right now. (also keep in mind that two penal codes I have presented in the Why are Touhou fans so thirsty thread that, if actually applied, would ban quite a chunk of this ecchi/hentai art due to it depicting questionable/minor-looking characters). 

I can't delete this box. I've lost the line outside of it, and now I'm stuck with it. In trying to delete this box, I accidentally shortcut-keyed the post function. I can't delete this post either. Why? Why must I suffer this? I didn't want this. CVN probably didn't either, but now he's going to be notified of it. What am I supposed to do now?

No problem. I think the box problem was originally on the website I first started thread, but now I see things worked much better here. But if you have any actual reply you would like to bring as contribution to this discussion, you are welcome to join. 

 

[ACE_DEUCE]

Again, I would like to put emphasis on the side that this is not my answer, but the one I have received in a conversation about the art direction of Touhou (and anime-ish stuff in general). I think the "dodgy pedophilia" framing might also be coming from the extremely complicated (and messed up) rules in regards to the age of consent in Japan. At least as far as I understood, there are at least 3 different sets of laws, each contradicting the other. On one side, you have the national law  as implemented based on the 1907 Penal Code. On another, you have the local, prefecture level laws which can set the age at whatever they consider, and finally, there can also exist a municipal level law affecting like one city inside the prefecture (so you basically have a law into a law into a law system). I might be wrong, so please correct me on that. And it is now like the general reputation of Japan is that "the age of consent is 13" (but this happens in some special conditions), while a couple below the age of 20 cannot get married unless getting written blessing from the parents. 

Yes, my response there was addressed to "your compadre" i.e. the person you were talking to. In any case, while the national minimum is 13 in Japan, I don't believe there's a single prefecture which actually uses that as the de-facto age of consent. In fact, I'm pretty sure that there's no prefecture which has it set lower than 16, but the exact data for each one is difficult to find so maybe there are a few that do. And in any case, I don't know of a legal precedent set where an adult can have relations with a minor who is 13 or 14 and not be convicted for statutory rape (i.e. how the law is applied matters just as much as much as how it's written).

To be fair, information sounds a bit contradictory in this part. The quote says that the subjects preferred the girls over the age of 14. However, in the () part afterwards, you have said that girls of the age of 12 outclassed women of the age of 21. Maybe I understood it wrongly, but can you please elaborate on this part a little bit? I want to clear up my confusion of what is going on. But overall, I guess my discussion colleague preferred the idea that if you wanted a 3000 years old character, then you should at least draw it look old enough - m guess on what was her point when saying that part. 

I believe you did misread the quote I provided. It says "about 14" meaning "around the age of 14". According to that survey, attractiveness starts to go up very fast at the age of 12, peaks at 14, and then very slowly starts to drop off (it only went up to 30 I believe so it probably drops off faster later). But anyways, the point I was trying to make by quoting that study is that it's strange to frame the existence of loli characters as "closeted pedophiles expressing themselves" because then we should be seeing it everywhere as Japan doesn't seem to be an outlier in that regard. It's a bit of a silly discussion to have in any case; most people, be they in Japan or otherwise are healthy and functioning members of society who know how to act rationally and set boundaries, which is why I called your friend out on their armchair psychoanalysis - they were trying to create a profile based on entirely surface level knowledge without much substance.

True. I mean the more traditional style of Japanese art still exists (of course). However, my emphasis was on the idea of what is the nation more known for nowadays when it comes to visual arts. Your chance is much greater to have someone tell you "oh, they make that thing called anime" instead of associating Japan with any other style of art. In a simple experiment done at home (although I would rather call my family ignorant, or at least unknowing of the matter), it was much easier for them to recognize and associate anime style with Japan than any other kind of graphic art. 

Well yes, it's as I expressed, anime is just the more popular export. I'd imagine the reverse holds true as well, a Japanese person is much more likely to recognize blockbuster cinema as western rather than, say, a modernist painting or prose. There are probably tons of things that contribute to this. For one, many people in Europe and America were first introduced to anime because a local television station decided to buy broadcasting rights to certain shows in order to save on original productions. On the other hand, it's probably not nearly as easy to get traditional Japanese artists to fly over to another continent to attend an exhibition, and even if you did it's hard to say whether there would be any sort of market for it. Another thing is that importing anime from Japan was significantly easier than with any other art form. It was typically copyable (either recorded on tape or a CD) and available for personal use. Since anime with a target audience of teenagers tends not to utilize overly complex language, one would think it's also easier to translate which then leads to an even wider appeal thanks to fan-subbing groups. And lastly it's probably just easier to get into, all things considered. Especially with the rise and spread of geek culture, it wasn't difficult to integrate it with the rest of what was popular at the time.

 

[Ken Hisuag]

I intend to say something on this thread. It's going to be rather disconnected because it's taking so long, but I intend it to come eventually. In the meantime, I found this video and thought it relevant (not necessarily reflective of my perspective, just relevant).


Spoiler

 

[SasaMisa]

Yeah, I'm the same Ken, in that I want to go into things in more detail, but it's finding the time for it (this thread is also quite involved).

Oh, and don't worry, CVN... I have no intention of ranting this time. I can see you're not a troll and do indeed have a genuine curiosity regarding the whys and the wherefores of such phenomena. As a matter of fact, like I mentioned to all the other day in the Chatbox, I did happen to watch something on Clownfish TV quite recently which I think is highly relevant to what you're saying, especially in light of the way your female acquaintance seemed to react in regard to anime inspired material. Feel free to check it out for yourself sometime. (=^_^=)

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Oh, and don't worry, CVN... I have no intention of ranting this time. I can see you're not a troll and do indeed have a genuine curiosity regarding the whys and the wherefores of such phenomena.

Thank you. Funny enough, even if I was actually trying to troll I would not have been as convincing - most of the time, I actually manage to achieve things when I am not really trying to do so for whatever reason. But yeah, I am basically coming from a background of no interactions with this kind of medium, for only all of a sudden to be surrounded by it and become pretty much my main source of entertainment for almost the past couple years. I am not really curious to go further down the anime rabbit hole or get into other holes like HoloLive, as I am satisfied and have more than enough content with Touhou alone (maybe even more than I can digest). But there is ut something I am finding quite appealing about the style, something that I have already mentioned in the how to draw thread. As for other genuine things, the original name I have intended for the thirst thread was "Why are Touhou fans so horny?", but decided to change it last moment to soften a bit the title and not get into trouble due to unwanted connotations. 

But yes, I am still quite confused. When I originally write the thread on a different forum, in January 2021, it came just a few days after witnessing an argument in the Tanks Encyclopedia community in their recruitment page. One person draw an awesome are piece with tanks, and the only "sin" he did was to add anime girls peeking their head out the tank cupola. And from there, quite a bit of a shitshow trying to completely cancel how good the actual drawing was just because it looked like "weeb shit" the did not belong to the community and their standards. It was the moment I felt a bit offended for no good reason, especially when I wanted to defend the artist as their work was very good. I a still with the group even now, despite the fact I avoided that section of discussion ever since. 

These are the drawings of that person. They were posted in the artists recruitment section, and if they did not have the girls added, I think the whole discussion could have been avoided back then:

 

And this is how the discussion looked like (please excuse my colleagues when it comes to the topic)

This whole mess included 3 Romanians (me, an illustrator of the website and one of the administrators) - that is why I keep pointing out how people in my country tend to think (despite the fact among my generation in college I am starting to see more and more people taking interest in anime and manga rather than the American equivalent media) as well as few more guys.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Bruh they didn't pull their punches saying these.

Well because of the annoying parts of the anime community and memes making fun of anime, it is susceptible that it is going to happen.

So you mean that the bad name anime got is mostly coming from the people who are associated with it? Particularly the annoying parts of that fandoms

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Yes. Annoying weeaboos, some degenerates and people just doing annoying actions that tarnish its reputation.

Sounds about right 

 

[CountVonNumenor]

A slightly distressful side effect after 2 years of intense exposure to anime-style Touhou fanart:

A have forgotten how a real young woman looks like (not a joke). I don't know why I feel even at the age of 20 or around they still look like at least a few years younger (not that I am good at guessing ages myself), as if they did not changed a single bit in physical features since I got into school. Or maybe I watched too much anime style art, got too used to that proportions (especially for anything using the "heroic" proportions), so I ended up forgetting what I real woman looks like. I find this thing very weird, and cannot understand why such a big perception change in such a short amount of time.

No, women do not have big eyes. No, their hair does not usually stay in strands of hair like in anime art (at least not that often). No, they are not so thin as anime style makes the average girl/young adult woman look like. No, they are not that tall/have long stick-like legs. On the same note, no, young women are that "T H I C C" or have huge boobs like in your average anime (they are not flat either). To me, it feels as if a young irl lady at around the age of 20 pretty much looks the same as few years prior, without too much development. Can anyone help me with some biology explanation (if there is anyone willing to)? I would definitely like to get a better understanding of the topic.

I am confused even about myself, a young man in his early 20s. Even I feel about myself that I look tooo young for my age, while I saw other guys around the age 16-17 looking much more mature than myself (which also led to me initially thinking they are like 23-25 years old). Genetics sure are weird. 

But anyway, the problem of warped perception when it comes to reality, how do you deal with it...?

 

[Nekoko]

Can anyone help me with some biology explanation (if there is anyone willing to)? I would definitely like to get a better understanding of the topic.

My English is very bad so I will try to explain it in a very very simple way.

Many theories have been made on this subject but the most common one is about how hormones secretion is related to your mental (I mean mental in a psychological way).

Hormones are molecules that helps us being an adult physically (everyone knows that haha)

I’ll take a little exemple to make it clearer (or I hope it would be) :

• Some teens who wants to look like adults or to look more mature will have a normal hormonal secretion so they will look like older or they will just look like teens

IT DOESN’T APPLY TO EVERYONE
 

️What we eat also affect our hormonal secretion that’s why you must be careful not to eat a lot of chemically modified foods as candies, soda…
Porn over consommation also affects your hormones in a bad way (it also makes someone more and more lazy)

whew I wrote to much

 

[Turbonator]

️What we eat also affect our hormonal secretion that’s why you must be careful not to eat a lot of chemically modified foods as candies, soda…
Porn over consommation also affects your hormones in a bad way (it also makes someone more and more lazy)

Everything about modern living can fuck up your hormones.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

• Some teens who wants to look like adults or to look more mature will have a normal hormonal secretion so they will look like older or they will just look like teens

I am still a little confused. So let me try to get it: you mean that a normal hormonal secretion can lead to looking older/more mature than your actual age?
 

️What we eat also affect our hormonal secretion that’s why you must be careful not to eat a lot of chemically modified foods as candies, soda…

I never thought about candies or soda being involved in this process. If there was any food I would think to be involved, that would have been any sort of meat, milk or other animal-based products. Since these are the ones where I have heard most of the time to be accused of added hormones. And to me, it sounds like an increased amount of hormones would be the source of a much faster development than normal. It does not apply to everyone, but it's weird I have not noticed it in my case, despite eating pretty much the same things like everyone else (a little bit out of anything). 

Porn over consommation also affects your hormones in a bad way (it also makes someone more and more lazy)

Alright, the correlation between porn consumption and the lazy attitude of a person sure is something new for me to hear. 
 

Everything about modern living can fuck up your hormones.

With things nowadays, you just are no longer sure what is gonna affect you or not. 

Anyway, the topic is interesting, and would definitely try to tie it into both the overall statement I have done previously, and the overall theme about anime art and that style's specific depiction of the human body in a more or less realistic (many times the latter) manner. We are talking about porn coming up with unrealistic conceptions about the image of the human body and unrealistic relations between humans, but how about anime? Isn't it pretty much the same thing (at least at times)?

It's not like anime art (and by extension Touhou) has completely warped my perception of how a human body (in our case a young lady's) looks like in perhaps a negative way through just a couple years.