Reply to TheOVJM’s decline of Touhou video

[CountVonNumenor]

[No message]

 

[Darksymphony777]

I don't have much to add here since I have not watched the video but I do have to agree that bar none pure furies is the absolute peak of the touhou music. It works so well as a song that sounds so simplistic compared to some of the other well known songs like UN Owen was her but it being simple makes it so memorable since Junko is all about purity and the best way to translate this is through a song that acts as more a base to be built upon than a full song altogether.

Also if it's true about sadist reisen that's terrible, I prefer the idea that reisen is a somewhat PTSD bunny who willingly takes the possible abuse from the rest of the crew because not only is she used to it but she knows it's not malicious so rolls with it.

 

[Darksymphony777]

Also your thoughts on the smooth brain on the blue bird who said that fumos are problematic

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Also your thoughts on the smooth brain on the blue bird who said that fumos are problematic

Can you please explain what you meant through this part? 

 

[ACE_DEUCE]

Regrettably I don't have the time to watch an entire hour-long video, but I still find the questions posed interesting so I'll try and go off of the points given in the original post.

Official Games

Now I'll say that I haven't actually played any mainline shmup game after UFO, but from what I've seen I will concur that the patterns from 16 and onward just seem a bit more lackluster. There's no particularly iconic battle gimmick or spell card that I can recall from most of the recent games, but to an extent this is to be expected. You're bound to lose out on some creativity after having created hundreds and hundreds of unique bullet patterns, and it's honestly a miracle that there are so many distinct ones in the first place. This doesn't mean the game design is immune to criticism however and I do think ZUN should step back for a bit and maybe take a bit of a break from the mainline games in order to get his ideas in order.

Regarding the story... eh. I'll be one to say that outside of some instances of interesting world building and a serviceable moment-to-moment plot in the context of the individual games, there's really not that much to get excited for with Touhou's story. This will lead into a later point.

Regarding AoCF, even not taking into account the netplay issues, it's just not a very good game at all. None of the flying fighters are, really. Hisoutensoku had essentially presented the perfect formula so all they needed to do was polish it up a bit and they'd have a game on their hands with the quality comparable to (and potentially exceeding that of) something made by fighting game monoliths like Arc System Works or French Bread, with a gameplay style distinct enough to still be called a Touhou game in essence. But then they decide to get rid of motions, reduce the number of command normals, reduce mobility options, dumb down customization etc. etc. I've effectively given up hope of another good Touhou fighter coming out, so on that point I'd certainly have to agree that there's a visible decline.

Music

I wouldn't say that the music in general has fallen off that much, however I will agree that stage themes are just less memorable nowadays. Maybe it's just because of a lack of remixes (though this is true for pretty much every game after IN) but I don't like how I cannot recall even a single stage theme from the last 3-4 mainline games. I think ZUN might just be focusing too much on trying to introduce a new hit boss character that people are gonna like that he dedicates less time towards setting the atmosphere in the stages themselves. I don't expect him to casually drop another "Alice in Wonderland", "Inevitably Forbidden Game", "Fires of Hokkai" or "Lullaby of Deserted Hell" but something with more substance would be nice.

Print Works

I will never understand people who set high expectations for the official literature. Do they read some doujin work and just expect it to be on that level? In any case, in accordance with what I wrote a moment ago, I can say I'm of the opinion that ZUN just isn't a very good writer. This is fine, you can't be a master of all trades, but I was under the impression that most people knew this; He can somewhat competently construct the short episodic stories that occur within the games, but it's evident that that's far different from crafting a more complex narrative (especially over such long periods of time) which involves an entirely different skill set. Are people just upset that the story canonically has stupid things happen in it thanks to the print works? I do have my fair share of complaints with them as well (mainly how ZUN's method of putting focus on other characters is making Reimu an incompetent bumbling idiot throughout half the story) but mediocre storytelling has been a staple of the print works since even the early ones like SSiB, so there's no real "decline" here. Either turn your brain off and have a little fun with it or probably don't read it. For instance, I haven't read the fairy mangas because they sound conceptually kind of boring to me, and I still don't believe I've missed out on too much all things considered. The same goes for the rest of the literature, most of it probably won't have too much bearing on what happens in the games (even if it does just read a summary on the wiki lmao).

(The fandom overall, however, is doing fine I'd say, just stay away from annoying crowds haha)

 

[Ken Hisuag]

early Windows is the most memorable one, Modern 1 makes me think more commonly of the boss themes and forget the stage themes with some exceptions, and Modern 2 era continues on that trend. UM is a bit of an exception, but that one has to be caused more by the fact that the game is just 1 year old, and therefore still fresh in my mind.

Maybe it's just because of a lack of remixes (though this is true for pretty much every game after IN) but I don't like how I cannot recall even a single stage theme from the last 3-4 mainline games.

I suspect the issue is exposure, with the added aspect of personal preference. From just the most recent three main titles, some of the best tracks (assume subjectivity) were stage themes; HSiFS had Illusionary White Traveler, WBaWC had Unlocated Hell, and UM had The Perpetual Snow of Komakusa Blossoms. TD (commonly attributed to Modern Era 1, but I tend to associate it with Modern Era 2) is full of great stage themes, including The Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum, Welcome to the Youkai Temple, Let's Live in a Lovely Cemetery, and of course Desire Drive. Since entering the fandom, each new entry has taken me about a year to get into the soundtrack, but so far I've always been able to appreciate the music without too much hesitation regarding its preceding comparatives.

 

[Darksymphony777]

Can you please explain what you meant through this part

Sorry it took so long to respond

Someone on Twitter said that fumos are pedo bait because of how they are designed

 

[buskerdog]

I've already given my take on this whole debacle in that other thread where the video was mentioned before, but reading this has made me think that maybe it's about time I really took that whole "Touhou game analysis" idea I had seriously... unfortunately, I still don't think I would have the time or motivation to do that. But perhaps I should start thinking about it as more than just an 'interesting idea that I'll never bother with'. Perhaps people would not only find it interesting, but also helpful, to have someone offer a comparison of games' quality at more than just a surface level look.

Regarding the WaHH manga, gonna be real with you I can barely remember a thing that happened in WaHH, I didn't really like that manga as a whole lol.

Regarding AoCF, even not taking into account the netplay issues, it's just not a very good game at all. None of the flying fighters are, really.

Don't most people consider AoCF to be the best of the flying fighters? I agree that the flying fighters aren't on the level of their predecessors but in terms of both singleplayer and multiplayer content, AoCF is the most polished and least gimmicky "floater" which people generally like it for. In fact, the game is completely devoid of gimmicks since this game's unique mechanic actually works as an expansion of the game's systems rather than a system that conflicts or overbears on the core gameplay, making AoCF the most straightforward, plain-and-fair fighting game since IaMP, something even Hisoutensoku can't claim to be. Sure, if you wanted you could still argue that character switching is a gimmick, but it's nothing close to the level of SWR/Soku's weather and card decks, HM's loadouts, and ULiL's... however you describe what happens in that game.

TD (commonly attributed to Modern Era 1, but I tend to associate it with Modern Era 2) is full of great stage themes, including The Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum, Welcome to the Youkai Temple, Let's Live in a Lovely Cemetery, and of course Desire Drive.

Ken talking about how much he likes Ten Desires music was not a take I was expecting to read today.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

So... time for me to get again at writing a long reply to everything discussed today:

Now I'll say that I haven't actually played any mainline shmup game after UFO, but from what I've seen I will concur that the patterns from 16 and onward just seem a bit more lackluster. There's no particularly iconic battle gimmick or spell card that I can recall from most of the recent games, but to an extent this is to be expected. You're bound to lose out on some creativity after having created hundreds and hundreds of unique bullet patterns, and it's honestly a miracle that there are so many distinct ones in the first place. This doesn't mean the game design is immune to criticism however and I do think ZUN should step back for a bit and maybe take a bit of a break from the mainline games in order to get his ideas in order.

Yeah, that is absolutely fair. By now, ZUN must have created a lot of patterns just like you said, at some point repetition would appear. There are just so many combinations you could do. Otherwise, as my experience with the games is low, I would not get myself to comment much more on the matter (I do not deserve, nor can I say more than "it looks nice/it looks impossible to dodge/puts me to confusion"). But otherwise, I agree with your point. Maybe a break would be useful. 

Regarding AoCF, even not taking into account the netplay issues, it's just not a very good game at all. None of the flying fighters are, really. Hisoutensoku had essentially presented the perfect formula so all they needed to do was polish it up a bit and they'd have a game on their hands with the quality comparable to (and potentially exceeding that of) something made by fighting game monoliths like Arc System Works or French Bread, with a gameplay style distinct enough to still be called a Touhou game in essence. But then they decide to get rid of motions, reduce the number of command normals, reduce mobility options, dumb down customization etc. etc. I've effectively given up hope of another good Touhou fighter coming out, so on that point I'd certainly have to agree that there's a visible decline.

Weird, because just like buskerdog pointed out, I knew about AoCF to be well received among the newer fighter games. Maybe not at the level of the original "ground fighters", but still decent. 

I wouldn't say that the music in general has fallen off that much, however I will agree that stage themes are just less memorable nowadays. Maybe it's just because of a lack of remixes (though this is true for pretty much every game after IN) but I don't like how I cannot recall even a single stage theme from the last 3-4 mainline games. I think ZUN might just be focusing too much on trying to introduce a new hit boss character that people are gonna like that he dedicates less time towards setting the atmosphere in the stages themselves. I don't expect him to casually drop another "Alice in Wonderland", "Inevitably Forbidden Game", "Fires of Hokkai" or "Lullaby of Deserted Hell" but something with more substance would be nice.

Yeah, in a way it is quite scary how fan arrangements rarely use any of the stage themes past IN. I know a few exceptions until now, but they are indeed few at least to my knowledge. And the newer the game, the less chances to find an arrangement. Touhou music creators, the ZUN soundtrack does not stop at IN. When you mentioned Lullaby of Deserted Hell, you brought me old memories of being confused that was not the boss theme ( legit thought for quite a while that was Orin's theme until listening to Corpse Voyage). As for the newer games, I really cannot remember that much in terms of stage themes, but a few are still in my mind despite not knowing their names at times: the stage 6 theme in LoLK which is a calm version of Pure Furies, the stage theme for Hecatia (though I still confuse it with the actual boss fight theme), and Beast Metropolis from Touhou 17 (I reall like that one). 

mediocre storytelling has been a staple of the print works since even the early ones like SSiB, so there's no real "decline" here.

Honestly, there are like 3-4 things I can remember from SSiB:

• the SDM crew + Reimu & Marisa go to the moon in a rocket (how did they get past the Hakurei Barrier, I have no idea)
  
• they get their butts handed there by the Watatsuki sisters (which ever since have never been seen in canon due to the fan outrage)
  
• swimsuits are now canon in Gensokyo (at least for Reimu, Marisa and Remilia - I have talked about that in the fashion thread long ago)
  
• Remilia is throwing a huge party at the SDM (was that before or after the whole Moon expedition?)
  

The same goes for the rest of the literature, most of it probably won't have too much bearing on what happens in the games (even if it does just read a summary on the wiki lmao).

Personally, I like Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red and the two Gensokyo Encyclopedia books. The former was a fun read, and the latter helped me learn a little more about the characters (despite most of the info already being on the wiki; it just feels different to read it firsthand from the source). 

TD (commonly attributed to Modern Era 1, but I tend to associate it with Modern Era 2) is full of great stage themes, including The Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum, Welcome to the Youkai Temple, Let's Live in a Lovely Cemetery, and of course Desire Drive.

I am sorry, but whenever someone brings up Desire Drive (good song btw) and fan arrangements, I can no long not think about Necromantic. Damn it Stack and your catchy songs & vocals!

Someone on Twitter said that fumos are pedo bait because of how they are designed

Trust me, I have heard and seen worse things about Fumo coming from Twitter.

Spoiler

Some "artists" got to drawing Fumo hentai. Let that sink in. I am feeling very tempted to write an article in criticism to the horny-ness of Touhou fans, but I end up calming down and realizing this is just something you cannot control. It is not like our series is also known for that kind of things, and we are among the most popular topics for R18 content online and in doujin works - a simple, daily walk on Danbooru and Gelbooru could prove that in no more than a minute.

I've already given my take on this whole debacle in that other thread where the video

First of all, I would like to that you for the original contribution back in the day. For that reason, just to diversify this thread a little bit, I will bring here some of the answers from others who have watched the video. Back then, I did not originally watch it, so I let you do all the work. Now though, as I got into it too, I decided to write an elaborate text, and so called you in here to continue that conversation in a dedicated thread. This might be useful especially for the newer people, maybe those who did not find the original thread at the time or joined the talk when it was active. Therefore, I am sorry if anyone will get annoyed by the following pings:

First, the original reply of buskerdog:

Spoiler

I mean there's a lot to digest here, but what I was actually drawn to in your post was the video you linked, which you say you have not watched yet.

I decided to watch it (although I did skip some parts regarding print works I haven't yet read) and it is a very well made video which I think makes a fair analysis and criticism of the franchise. Although I have not been a fan for as long as he has, since we made a similar journey of playing the games through in order, I found myself relating a lot to his opinions on the earlier games. Regarding the rest of the video, I don't agree with all of his points, but I don't think any of his takes are invalid either, and I think that my eyes have been opened to some perspectives I had not previously considered.

I don't think I'm able to make a concise "response" to his video as a whole, but I would like to cherry pick some points that were made and give my own viewpoints on (I'm probably mostly going to pick points that I disagree with, for the sake of providing my own opinion. But I do think there were several valid observations and critiques made as well).

Points are in no particular order because I can't remember what order they appeared in the video.

"ZUN's new artsyle is worse than the old one"
Disagree. I too see the charm in the older artwork myself, but I don't think it could have stayed like that forever. I do take one issue with the newer artstyle, which is that a lot of characters suffer from "same face" syndrome, but other than that I think the new art looks very clean and I like it.

"The new music is worse"
Hard disagree. Two particular instruments he actually picked on for not liking, I'm a big fan of. Music will always be a very subjective thing, and clearly stylistic changes have occurred which can make you prefer one era of music to another, but I think it is straight up wrong to say that the new music is "worse" than the originals. We're just very nostalgic about the classics. My rule of thumb is that if the title screen music still slaps, then ZUN hasn't lost it. And the title screen music still slaps.

"Touhou 16, 17 and 18 are bad because of the story"
I understand parts of this but am not completely in agreement. I think this is more a case of "unlived potential" than straight up being bad. The thing is, Touhou 16, 17, and 18 have all brought in completely new casts of characters, and then done very little with them after that (with the exception of Okina). These games all have very self-contained stories that don't spill out into other games, unlike the classic era which had a lot of crossover, or the first modern era where each game's events directly triggered the next.
Here's the thing... Touhou 14 is also just like this. And he said he liked that one. So I don't really see how this argument holds water. He did mention that this also had something to do with how the stories intertwine with the print works, which I can't comment on since I have only read some of them. But from the perspective of the games, this really doesn't feel like anything new. In fact, a lot of the fleshing out of the previous cast is done through Tasofro's fighting games, and they've only made one game since Touhou 16 - which is actually something I want to create a thread about soon (and this video has spurred me on in wanting to make that thread). So in my opinion while the past few games have felt less connected to each other than previous instalments, I don't think they were bad on their own. And on the topic of Touhou 18 having plot holes, ZUN did say that it was meant to be a "lighter" experience with less seriousness.

"Saki and Misumaru are fanservice characters to make up for the degrading story"
This is something I hadn't considered until it was brought up this video, and it does make me reconsider. But the way I see it, these characters (mainly Misumaru) are here to serve up lore tidbits for long-time fans to add some more connection to previous entries, while still being able to keep the game as a whole its own unique entity, that newcomers can still understand without needing all the background knowledge. Maybe you can argue that what I'm describing is fanservice. But I like Misumaru, and we still haven't seen what's to come of Touhou's story post-Unconnected Marketeers. I hope she is developed more in future as we could see some very interesting progression of the plot. That being said, if she's just a one-off character who never gets brought up again... yeah, that would be disappointing. But seeing as she is a huge deal, I don't think that will happen, after all Okina got further development after her initial appearance. As for Saki?... to be honest, I don't really see how she counts as a "fanservice" character. Yeah, she's Miko's horse. So what? That's not a mind blowing revelation.

But I think that speculating about the future of the series is difficult territory to be stepping on. I'd rather just take it as it comes. My parting message on this post is that times change, and not all eras of Touhou will be same. My favourite era is the classic era (6-9). The existence of newer games doesn't make me enjoy that era any less, and even if things feel different in newer eras, I am still able to enjoy them for their strengths.

Now with all that being said... I have a topic on Goyouku Ibun to make...

Without having watched it back then, I could not agree on some of the points you guys made. And so went with what I was aware of at the time. That way, I ended up with some replies that were missing quite a bit of content and context. 

This was one of my replies on the issue:

Spoiler

• ZUN's character design (in)volution - I personally really love the newer approach. I know the old art had its charm, but oh god, do we need to remember the EoSD Sakuya? Another funny one that I saw is related to hair lighting. Due to that, even now fan artists are completely confused whether Lyrica has brown, grey or silver color hair. I just feel there has been an improvement in recent years, with TH18 overall being a result in terms of overall how much like a human the character looks like. Also, it would sure be an interesting thing to see someone else doing the art for the main games for once. Fairy Wars is a very interesting example, and I agree with it. Besides, I do not think mods that replace ZUN's portraits with those made by Dairi for example exist, since there is just TOO MUCH good fanart. 
  
• I am not very sure what to say about the music in the past few games. Even if TH16 is partially forgettable for me, I still cannot forget the Mai and Satono fight theme, or the opening screen score. From TH17, I really like Beast Metropolis, Joutojin of Ceramics and Idolatrize World. And from UM, even if it is still under the effect of "new game bias", I have remained with Fortune Kitten, Smoking Dragon, Starry Mountain of Tenma, Where is That Bustling Marketplace Now (wow, a bit of a mouthful to be fair) and The Princess Who Slays Dragon Kings. Also a bit of potential bias since Akatsuki Records turned all the songs I have mentioned into some awesome arrangements (I really feel like the album Coooonsultant! made justice to the TH18 soundtrack)
  
• I can see why Misumaru would be seen as fanservice, but to be honest, I never really cared too much about her. As for Saki, she is probably one of the Extra Stage bosses I care the least about, so I am not too bothered about anything at all.
  
• I did notice there was some connection in the previous games indeed. From what I know, 6-7-8 were connected as the first two were to establish the characters, then Imperishable Night was supposed to be the grand finale to through them together in order to solve the big incident. Then 10-11-12-13 were somehow connected, as the appearance of the Moriya Shrine was the catalyst that put things in motion for the next few games. Afterwards, I guess the games start to connect more with the other materials instead of the other games that came before? There's still like a huge gap in my knowledge, so I cannot really think any further. 
  
• About Lost Word, I have an entire thread dedicated to it and the way I have felt about the game in the past months. I can mostly agree with all you have said, even if I may add some more. There are a few things I have mentioned in the thread to be not bad, but one thing I forgot is that the game was useful for various doujins to promote their own music. Also the story cards have fan art made by various artists, who this was just get more to be seen. As for auto-replay, I just like put a specific number of battles, park my phone in another corner of the room, and just focus on whatever else more important I have to do at the moment. Finally, even if I broke my promise and go the newest SFES Toyohime, my idea is to just wait for when characters from my Top 10 favorites are coming into global. That way, I am just hoarding resources, and get exactly what I am looking for. As for now, I am still waiting for Eiki, Raiko, Mayumi and Tenkyuu (UM cast into LW when?). I am not sure what else to add in this paragraph, since I have everything there, Feel free to comment in that thread too if you find anything interesting though.
  
• In my early days of exploring YouTube once it started recommending me Touhou videos, I have watched a lot of stuff aimlessly. It was either due to titles being in Japanese and me having no idea what that actually is until clicking, or was one of these old videos ported from NicoNico Douga by people like reddevils500. If we are in the IOSYS area, do we also need to remember Border of Ecstasy exists? I think it is just as bad. Enough said.
  

Then, there was an interesting reply from @SoundOfRayne (I really have not seen you in quite a while):

Spoiler

I took the time to watch that entire video, and boy howdy did it sure give me some thoughts.

Firstly @CountVonNumenor don't be sorry about being critical. If there's one takeaway I agreed with wholeheartedly from TheOVJM's video, it's that the Touhou fandom treats ZUN like a god among men who can do no wrong, and that's a big, BIG problem. Wanting to see something you love do better doesn't mean you hate it. As far as I'm concerned, being willing to look at something critically is the highest form of affection you can give something, because you genuinely want to see it in its best form.

That being said, I'm a new-ish fan too, so my scope isn't anywhere near as large as older fans of the series. But I do have my own thoughts on issues that I've seen, both fanon and canon.

• Unlike TheOVJM, I'm not really that interested in the lore behind Touhou. I like the characters and the music and (occasionally) the feel of the games. Even so, he brings up a good point about how ZUN's approach to worldbuilding has changed over time, and it connects to a longstanding opinion I've had about the series. "Wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle," he puts it. ZUN seems very interested in constantly adding more "new" to every entry he makes into the series, instead of elaborating on things that were already there. For TheOVJM, this was a problem with Touhou's storytelling. The events of previous games were interconnected with the games that succeeded them, (almost like it was a series or something. Wow!) whereas newer games are mostly self-contained, with only minor teases to a deeper lore to tide fans over. For me and my interests, this is a problem with characters. In the discussion over character designs, I was pretty hard on WBaWC and especially UM for having some bad characters. UM was rife with double-dipping into previous character designs, and I can't think of a strong reason to do that over replacing them with older characters other than "we need more N E W." How interesting would it have been to see already established characters responding to new incidents. Yeah, the result is the same- we still have to duke it out with them- but at least then we'd get a little more insight on some fan favorite characters instead of a new one that'll inevitably be overshadowed by those fan favorites.
  

• This might run counterintuitive to what I just wrote, but I also have an issue with the protagonists of the series, just in the opposite direction. I understand Reimu and Marisa being present in pretty much every game, but can we please see some diversity with the other playable characters? I'm tired of seeing Youmu and Sakuya and Sanae. I love them dearly (and accept Sanae's existence), I do, but can't we get someone to take their place when it could impact the story? TheOVJM brought up a good point: wouldn't Kasen have some concerns when the events of WBaWC took place, given her connection to animals? Forget just letting her be a part of the story; she ought be a playable character for it.
  

• I'll just say it: I know ZUN's artwork in the past had some kind of charm to it. I wasn't good, but I could understand the appeal people saw in it. But Great Fairy Wars exists, and there's no good reason for ZUN to continue doing his own art for the games. If there's one thing the fandom has done consistently well, it's character art, and with the way art is used in the games, I can't imagine it being a hefty investment to outsource the portraits to another artist. It's not like good artists are in short supply, or wouldn't be happy to do it.
  

• I have a LOT of problems with Lost Word, and the gacha system in general. The "marriage" system in the global release only applied to the main characters (who I would like to remind everyone, are not legal) and several of the more adult-appearing youkai by the time I dropped the game, so I was willing to begrudgingly swallow it. The gameplay was shallow and grindy and heavily emphasized the autoplay feature, but I didn't play it for very often per day, so I let it slide. Power creep was everywhere, and I constantly felt tempted to sink into those draws to get the new powerful friends, but I was steadfast in not spending money on it, so I didn't think it was that big a deal. Then we got more and more alternate versions of preexisting characters, like Marisa with a gun, Youmu but black, Sakuya but... different, I guess. She doesn't really look any different, but she's got some new moves. I knew this would mean it'd take longer to get releases of new characters, and damnit, I really wanted a Shinmyoumaru for my team, but it's never gonna happen. AND THEN, OH BOY. We got Loli Junko, and this game was dead to me. All those problems I had overlooked before came crashing down in one fell swoop, and I'll never see Lost Word in a positive light again.
  

Well, at least Shinmyoumaru is finally here in LW, and came together with Seija in a banner. I do not know though whether she is a general pool or FES unit. Also, if you thought Marisa with a gun, Youmu but black and Sakuya but...different were bad, get ready for new rank of rarity (Epic Fes, which requires yet a new kind kind of paper doll) Blue Reimu, SFES Blonde Reisen and yet undetermined rank Red Sanae (not kidding with this one). Oh, also Loli Yukari might become an Epic Fes if things go like this, whenever she will be announced. 

Red Sanae
BOTTOM TEXT

And this is an unofficial tier list of JP which by now it is outdated (took the screenshot at the end of April). Ok, below you have an updated version, as of 24th May 2022

And the final one I would like to quote, this time from @Tenkko (I really miss seeing you around, Tenkko)

Spoiler

hoo boy i watched the video. wow. ok, i had to take notes. it actually talks something i've been feeling for a while too, which i always dismissed as just "i've been here too long, of course it doesn't shimmer as much for me anymore". and there's some truth to that but i've seen a lot of newer fans that also gravitate more towards the older games, so i knew there was something.

• the change of gears since MoF is very real and, i've always been conflicted over that. on one hand i love that it allowed the world of Gensokyo to grow so much, and we started getting a lot of interconnected plots and/or references to previous events. on the other hand... yeah, man i just really miss that feel of "mystery" that touhou had, being given not-so-clear details and having to fill in the blanks on your own. but i feel that was bound to disappear anyways as more games shows up, and more is introduced.
  
• i'm also a big fan of ZUN's more traditional art, particularly from PCB, and there's also some independent pieces he's made which i also think are very nice. that said... yeah that wasn't gonna last. i do like the new cleaner art, specially since WBaWC where it seems that he fully got it down, but it does look a bit... idk, plastic? also the same face issue buskerdog mentioned which does bother me from time to time. but yknow overall, not a big deal.
  
• music is a loaded question. honestly the main thing i didn't like about the newer music is the WBaWC drums, you know the ones, but ZUN seems to be moving away from that. UM's overall soundtrack didn't vibe with me too much, but in a way i enjoyed the more experimental sound too.
  

onto the relevant stuff

• HSiFS. i do agree that's where the split happened. that was the first game i wasn't super into on release, even if it grew on me a bit later on. the reason why i think it kinda failed is because it tried to do two things: introduce new characters to previously established dynamics, and introduce okina as the third sage. the first one was doomed from the start because i feel there's not enough room to properly do that in games like these, plus messing with very well established groups is... delicate. not to mention it favored that over establishing new groups like the other games do, so now you have 3 characters who are supposed to be somewhere but instead just, exist to most people. second is okina, which was handled kinda sloppily, but she was given more room to develop later on and now she's basically the only relevant takeaway from the game. truly the hidden star in four seasons.
  
• WBaWC is. weird. i don't feel either way towards that game, other than it's a good starting point gameplay wise. i think it does some cool things story-wise, even if it wasn't what was expected.
  
• tasofro interlude. what's said about AoCF is true, but tasofro has a bit of history with development issues. soku is mentioned in the video, i think it might've happened with SWR too? idk don't quote me on that. there were definitely issues with HM. the development hell and release of Gouyoku Ibun was... something else though, even if im all for delaying games if it means getting a better product in the end.
  
• Unconnected Marketeers. i remember thinking "this is the most fun i've had with a touhou game for a while", and i still hold that. i don't have any major problems with that game really, other than aside from gameplay it's kinda... eh. misumaru struck me as odd since day 1, the "here's an important piece of lore on this stage 4 boss that's irrelevant to the rest of the game". even if it's addressed and she's given more time in the future, that introduction was kinda. not good.
  
• LostWord. i got nothing else to add, dude nails it. i've heard that the writing is sometimes good and that's it. also i can see how the branding can be a bit misleading, making people believe it's canon.
  

whew, think that's all. i still get excited for new stuff and will continue to do so, even if i tend to hang around fanworks more nowadays. i didn't mention the print works because i can't say much about that, but i do agree with the bit about CDS.

also yeah the "ZUN can do nothing wrong" is a terrible mentality.

Last but not least, @sodaodaoda also brought in some very interesting ideas back then:

Spoiler

I watched that video yesterday, and I agree with many points there.

I know this is straying away from the main topic of this thread, but I just want to talk about those things from the video (I will add some fanon stuff as well).
I really miss the old atmosphere of the games. The reason why I fell in love with Touhou in the first place is because of its atmosphere. My first ever Touhou game was PCB, and when I played that game, I felt weirdly nostalgic, and I loved that feeling. It felt like playing a game that I would've played as a small kid.
Everything from the music, to the art and even the backgrounds just had some sense of mystery to them, and I love that.
Same goes for EoSD and IN, when I played those 2 games as well I felt the same as with PCB. I love everything about them, even now, the classic Win era of Touhou games is my favorite, with PC-98 being the second era.
Nowadays, I don't have any of those feelings when playing the newer games (I'm mainly talking about from TD onwards, but sometimes, MoF - UFO count too). Like, I like the new games, I find them fun, but it's just not the same as before.
I think that the art contributes to that, while it did get much better (Props to ZUN!), it really lost the handdrawn charm that it had. The older games had a much softer feel to them because of the art, and a cozier/warmer feel too. I often look at Seihou - Touhou 9 styled art to satisfy my "hunger" for that old style.
The music, however, stayed the same to me. No matter what, I still love the music. I find that it gives me the same cozy nostalgic feeling that the older games did (Although, I'd still say that the older games did it better). From 13 - 18 era I'd say that Eternal Transient Reign is the best in that regard.

Alrighty! Enough about me venting on how I miss the old Touhou, time for fanon stuff.

Touhou LostWord. Oh boy. I have many mixed feelings about this game.
But, to be honest, I don't really hate it... I think it's meh, probably because I play kinda casually, but I still hate the shit out of the gacha elements.
I feel like TLW can sometimes be rewarding with the fact that you can get up to like 15 seal cubes a day, I myself like to get only the characters I want, so I don't spend as much resources.
However, I do not like the power creep, at all. While I do have some retro units (EoSD Reimu and Marisa, IN Reisen, I use Rei and Mari more tho) and some other SFES units, I think it's a pretty damn shitty thing to do. As far as I know, Meiling is the ONLY unit to get a buff in global, and she's an S tier now. Other characters? Nope! Byakuren is literally an E tier, and isn't she one of the more stronger characters? She's a stage 6 boss after all.
Also, the game itself can be a bit grindy sometimes, and a bit boring, but I honestly think that the combat isn't really that godawful, I like it a bit. It's just that sometimes it feels so damn boring to do stages, but thankfully there's an autoplay mode.
And the Rings of Fate... I was honestly surprised when I first saw them. I didn't play TLW for several months and coming back to see that you can marry the characters is just, eugh.
So yeah... I find TLW pretty meh.
+ Good art, okay music, I don't like how it's mixed a lot, but there are some classic tunes there.
+ Honestly the story itself is okay imo, it's pretty interesting.
+ I'd say that TLW can get generous with its resources sometimes.
- The gameplay can get really boring after some time.
- The pull rates for units are attrocious.
- The events aren't anything special.
- Power creep, like I said, I love the retro line, but they should've been costumes.
- Rings of Fate.......

In short, I miss the diversity of people around March-April who were so often answering in various threads going on at the time. Now, I am feeling quite thankful to have 2-3 who constantly reply, which at least is better than nobody. I just wish to find more people I can talk to about something I really like, a topic which I really cannot discuss with most of the people I know in real, day-by-day life.

reading this has made me think that maybe it's about time I really took that whole "Touhou game analysis" idea I had seriously... unfortunately, I still don't think I would have the time or motivation to do that. But perhaps I should start thinking about it as more than just an 'interesting idea that I'll never bother with'. Perhaps people would not only find it interesting, but also helpful, to have someone offer a comparison of games' quality at more than just a surface level look.

Personally, I have quite a weakness for writing overly complicated analysis of trivial subjects. For me, I feel it is just a fun way to make a thought experiment, and just think more about that topic. I would definitely recomment it to anyone curious, and you are abolsutely welcome to try so be it here or in a different thread. 

 

[ACE_DEUCE]

Don't most people consider AoCF to be the best of the flying fighters? I agree that the flying fighters aren't on the level of their predecessors but in terms of both singleplayer and multiplayer content, AoCF is the most polished and least gimmicky "floater" which people generally like it for. In fact, the game is completely devoid of gimmicks since this game's unique mechanic actually works as an expansion of the game's systems rather than a system that conflicts or overbears on the core gameplay, making AoCF the most straightforward, plain-and-fair fighting game since IaMP, something even Hisoutensoku can't claim to be. Sure, if you wanted you could still argue that character switching is a gimmick, but it's nothing close to the level of SWR/Soku's weather and card decks, HM's loadouts, and ULiL's... however you describe what happens in that game.

It's definitely a lot less egregious than HM and ULiL, and while I'm indifferent to the weather (maybe just because I play high damage characters so I can set up a 90 second typhoon and make the enemy miserable haha), if I had to compare Soku's "here's an intuitive yet intricate movement system" and "choose between previewing your super or added mechanical complexity to your combo" to AoCF's "you can jump downwards" and "basically just a one-button super" I can't really see myself preferring the latter. Maybe I'm just biased against tag fighters, who knows.

I suspect the issue is exposure, with the added aspect of personal preference. From just the most recent three main titles, some of the best tracks (assume subjectivity) were stage themes; HSiFS had Illusionary White Traveler, WBaWC had Unlocated Hell, and UM had The Perpetual Snow of Komakusa Blossoms. TD (commonly attributed to Modern Era 1, but I tend to associate it with Modern Era 2) is full of great stage themes, including The Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum, Welcome to the Youkai Temple, Let's Live in a Lovely Cemetery, and of course Desire Drive. Since entering the fandom, each new entry has taken me about a year to get into the soundtrack, but so far I've always been able to appreciate the music without too much hesitation regarding its preceding comparatives.

Oh yea Ten Desires absolutely hit it out of the park (hell Desire Drive is good enough to be associated more with Seiga than her actual theme). Also while I'm personally not too big on HSiFS and UM stage 3 (not bad songs, but they don't really hook me in), I have definitely been sleeping on Unlocated Hell, thank you for bringing it to my attention.

Honestly, there are like 3-4 things I can remember from SSiB:

• the SDM crew + Reimu & Marisa go to the moon in a rocket (how did they get past the Hakurei Barrier, I have no idea)
  
• they get their butts handed there by the Watatsuki sisters (which ever since have never been seen in canon due to the fan outrage)
  
• swimsuits are now canon in Gensokyo (at least for Reimu, Marisa and Remilia - I have talked about that in the fashion thread long ago)
  
• Remilia is throwing a huge party at the SDM (was that before or after the whole Moon expedition?)
  

This is pretty much the entire story; the only thing you missed is Yuyuko and Youmu sneaking onto the moon with Yukari serving as a diversion to steal some sake, nothing else of note happens. (also during a full moon, Yukari can open a gap inside a body of water that's reflecting the moon in order to open a pathway, how this works or why the restriction is so arbitrary is never explained iirc)

 

[Ken Hisuag]

Ken talking about how much he likes Ten Desires music was not a take I was expecting to read today.

Ironically, I'm not a big fan of TD's boss themes; the only track I especially appreciated of that classification was Futatsuiwa from Sado. To be fair, I appreciated Akiyama's arrangement of Omiwa Legend in HM, and I suspect it's more the arrangement style than the instrumentation. A similar issue presents itself in the first three boss themes from DDC, though with those I think ZUN was still figuring out how to balance out his guitar VST against other tracks. Bamboo Forest of the Lost is another underrated stage theme that I believe suffers from its arrangement style.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

This is pretty much the entire story; the only thing you missed is Yuyuko and Youmu sneaking onto the moon with Yukari serving as a diversion to steal some sake, nothing else of note happens. (also during a full moon, Yukari can open a gap inside a body of water that's reflecting the moon in order to open a pathway, how this works or why the restriction is so arbitrary is never explained iirc)

Oh yeah, I did hear about the way Yukari made a portal to the Moon. Rather convenient, isn't it? Reminds me of the portal to the Moon from Portal 2 (not that I think of it, I have seen quite a bit of Chell/Yukari cross-over fan art some time ago, as both have a similar gimmick of portal travelling). 

Oh yea Ten Desires absolutely hit it out of the park (hell Desire Drive is good enough to be associated more with Seiga than her actual theme).

Honestly, I think I still do that more often than I would want. It is just a good song though. To be honest, I also like Rigid Paradise for some reason (there's something I really like about it).
 

Anyway, waiting for more replies, especially on the other parts of the video or stuff I have pointed out. I have split it into sections especially for making it easier to come up with idea for any of it. That is also why I brought in the old replies on the video, just to have even more material to discuss. 

 

[Macbeth]

How big is this Touhou Lost Worlds game? I have never played it myself but I keep hearing people talk about it. I generally avoid gachas/mobile games like the plague

 

[CountVonNumenor]

How big is this Touhou Lost Worlds game? I have never played it myself but I keep hearing people talk about it. I generally avoid gachas/mobile games like the plague

Honestly, were do I even start from... I might write an encyclopedia. But I need to get to bed soon, so I will let someone else have the honor of presenting Lost Word, to which I will add further notes in the morning.

 

[Tenkko]

Just saw the ping, been focusing on other things so I've been neglecting checking in here. Heyo. Also I am not immune to mucho texto. Anyways here's my intermission

Touhou 15.5, 17.5 and 18 are pretty much dead – Steam stats say

Thinking about that part of the vid, that is an awful way to gauge interest. In fact if you look at the older games they are doing even worse. You can't expect a short single-player game to have a consistently high playerbase. Unless you're an avid fan of shooter games you're gonna play the games a couple times and... that's it for a while. Most people don't even do the "couple times" part. I personally haven't played a Touhou game since like, the beginning of this year. 15.5 would be the exception to this but while it's decent, it really didn't become established the way Soku did, so it suffers from "just play the story mode and move on". "or just read the dialogue on the wiki lol"

Also yeah, coupled with the fact that not everyone plays on Steam.

About the print works I agree with what others have mentioned, that where ZUN really shines is at writing shorter stories for the games. I would extend that to the stories included with the music CDs as well, even if they're disjointed due to the nature of the medium, but that's part of why I like them. When it comes to the mangas the only one I've finished is SSiB, and I'm currently keeping up with CDS. And... eh. There are some things I like about SSiB but if you asked me if I found the story interesting overall the answer is "no". CDS... a little bit? Even though it completely messes up the "mystery" aspect in like, the first two chapters. I guess it wasn't going for that in the first place but it really should've.

Idk right now the only motivation for me to read the mangas is "I wanna know about X piece of trivia". And that's not a good thing. But that's also why I enjoyed the other, more encyclopedia-ish books that just focus on worldbuilding and characters. I'm probably not the only one who shares this view since I rarely see anyone reminiscing about specific events but I do see people repeat things like "did you know Kogasa is a blacksmith?" like a broken record.

Also "ZUN doesn't think too deeply about the stories" "ZUN writes about what he's thinking about at the moment" "ZUN partially uses Touhou to express his views on X" etc etc. Some takes I've seen that make sense to me.

Uh. That's all I got in me at the moment. I wanted to go on a little bit about nostalgia and music n shit but I can't think atm.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Heyo. Also I am not immune to mucho texto.

Hello Tenkko! Haven't seen you in quite a long while. Feel free to write as much text as you wish. I always like reading long texts, especially if the subject is interesting.

Thinking about that part of the vid, that is an awful way to gauge interest. In fact if you look at the older games they are doing even worse. You can't expect a short single-player game to have a consistently high playerbase. Unless you're an avid fan of shooter games you're gonna play the games a couple times and... that's it for a while. Most people don't even do the "couple times" part. I personally haven't played a Touhou game since like, the beginning of this year. 15.5 would be the exception to this but while it's decent, it really didn't become established the way Soku did, so it suffers from "just play the story mode and move on". "or just read the dialogue on the wiki lol"

First of all, could you explain what you meant through the awful way to gauge interest? But I do agree. Unless you are an avid fan, sometimes it might be very hard o come back play these games. I think here is also a "me problem", but last time I tried playing PCB was in like February-March. And since, I still haven't managed to finish that game. As a whole, I might have less than 10 run attempts in over a year at that game, on easiest difficulty, and still cannot overcome Stage 4. And it is not like I also lack the motivation to get back to it too...

About the print works I agree with what others have mentioned, that where ZUN really shines is at writing shorter stories for the games.

I never really got to personally read the official manga (I tried getting into Lotus Eaters, but got bored after like 15 pages and never touched it again; I also skimmed through the most recent 2 chapters of CDS, but that's about it). Most of my knowledge of what is going on in the written works comes from the wiki or overall discussions. So I can not compare the writing for games with that for the publications. However, I did see there is a little bit of difference between the two. 

I would extend that to the stories included with the music CDs as well, even if they're disjointed due to the nature of the medium, but that's part of why I like them.

From the CD stories, I really like those related to Maribel and Renko. In a way, those helped me quite a bit in liking them more. As for stuff like Dolls in Pseudo Paradise, despite being a bit edgy and just Agatha Christie's novel but in Gensokyo, there is still something interesting about it. Something that makes it feel...different. 

Idk right now the only motivation for me to read the mangas is "I wanna know about X piece of trivia". And that's not a good thing. But that's also why I enjoyed the other, more encyclopedia-ish books that just focus on worldbuilding and characters. I'm probably not the only one who shares this view since I rarely see anyone reminiscing about specific events but I do see people repeat things like "did you know Kogasa is a blacksmith?" like a broken record.

Huh, I have never thought about this view on the idea of reading the manga. However, I do agree that the encyclopedia-ish books have been really good (I am still waiting for a new book covering the rest of the cast up to Touhou 18 - it's been 10 years since Symposium of Post-mysticism, ZUN damn it). As for the remembering events vs remembering bits of trivia, I do agree. Sometimes, I guess these are just the more memorable parts of the writing instead of what is actually going on. But if you are going to ask about people recalling events from the manga, more than likely you would get "Reimu killed the Fortune Teller" or "Kasen is trying to hide her totally not Oni side" too repeated like a broken record. At least in other places where I have seen people talk. Legit I cannot remember anything else important going on in there. (also the tons of copium fans have taken since the vengeful spirit in CDS was revealed not to be Mima, but MiMi). But to be honest, it took me quite a while to learn the fact Kogasa is a blacksmith. I actually think that is cool.

 

[buskerdog]

IMO the print works can be pretty good; when they're slice-of-life comedy style is when they are at their best. It's cool to be able to see Gensokyo and its inhabitants through a more normal lens when there is no incident going on.

I'm reading the three fairies manga series at the moment and while the first of those (Eastern and Little Nature Deity) wasn't that interesting, the second one (Strange and Bright Nature Deity) was a lot better, and I've heard many people say that the three fairies series as a whole is a really good Touhou manga so I'm looking forward to reading the rest of them!

Forbidden Scrollery, while slightly more serious, also has the same sort of slice-of-life feel and I really enjoyed that manga, maybe the fact I could actually physically read them made me enjoy it more but, with the exception of the last volume (unfortunately the ending was a huge anti-climax), I do think its a great Touhou manga (damnit Kosuzu is just too entertaining, the fact I forgot to put print work characters on my last Touhou sorter list was a missed opportunity).

Wild and Horned Hermit, for me personally, flopped because it was a lot of just being boring or being confusing... I don't remember anything particularly funny happening...

As for Silent Sinner in Blue, it was a quite a long time ago I read it but I seem to remember liking it. It was one of the first print works I read, so maybe if I went back to it I could see whether or not I actually think it's that good compared to other Touhou mangas I've now read.

 

[Tenkko]

First of all, could you explain what you meant through the awful way to gauge interest?

Him saying those games are dead because of the Steam stats when these are short single player games with little replayability for most people. The player number is gonna peak around release and then it's gonna drop all the way. It doesn't really tell much unless you compare all the games and even then it's kinda pointless. But here it is anyways

Spoiler

Numbers are taken from steamcharts, these are the average players for the first three months of each game, last 30 days, and their all-time peak. Take 'em with a grain of salt.

View attachment 2648

• Most of the main games seem to have a similar number of players recently (the differences are too small to mean much)
  
• Almost every game suffers a sharp drop after the first month (at least the ones that started with a high number)
  
• UM has the highest all-time peak by far, and right now it's one of the most played Touhou games on Steam along with MoF
  
• Steam may as well hold a very small fraction of the people that play the games. Which is really funny to think about considering all the fuss in the past months
  

Again all of this means nothing and I compiled it just to show that.

IMO the print works can be pretty good; when they're slice-of-life comedy style is when they are at their best. It's cool to be able to see Gensokyo and its inhabitants through a more normal lens when there is no incident going on.

Yeah I agree. Maybe what I said is redundant since Touhou is more about the characters than whatever plot it might have but, yknow. Which brings me to the one I forgot to mention: CoLA. It also follows kinda the same slice of life-ish format but from the get-go it had a more interesting premise to me. Not to mention Rinnosuke being an unique specimen. I haven't read the more recent chapters though.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

Him saying those games are dead because of the Steam stats when these are short single player games with little replayability for most people. The player number is gonna peak around release and then it's gonna drop all the way. It doesn't really tell much unless you compare all the games and even then it's kinda pointless. But here it is anyways

Oh, alright, now I see what you meant through that. Looking at your stats board, it is quite interesting how popular Touhou 18 still is, despite people not really talking about the game. Or at least I do not really see them talking about this game. But in general, it seems like the newer games and characters are less discussed among the fans. Are they less memorable? Did they not get further appearances past their debut game? At least in my case, Touhou 15 is more clear and interesting once reaching Clownpiece (as part of the holy trinity of Clownpiece-Junko-Hecatia), Touhou 16 is very much blur (except for best doggo Aunn, the crazy backdrop dancers - I still confuse them which is which + thank you Stack for helping me remember they exist and Okina). Touhou 17 is not too remarkable until reaching Mayumi (her and Keiki are basically the only things I could say caught my attention/I like), and Touhou 18 is more like still going through the "new game" glasses (there has been a year since UM release recently). 
 

Anyway, time to see how we can keep things in the topic I have started with, i.e debating the things TheOVJN said. 

Oh, one more thing I have seen being discussed among fans when it comes to the manga. Another problem usually brought up is how the supposed main characters of a manga series get overshadowed by another one who is coming everywhere, out of nowhere. And the example I heard most of the time is that of Mamizou. She has appeared in both Forbidden Scrollery and Lotus Eaters so much that by now, the two manga tend to be referred to by readers as stories more about Mamizou instead of the supposed protagonists (Kosuzu in FS and Miyoi in LE). Which is just another source of criticism towards the official publications of recent times - they start focusing on a character, yet in time the focus is lost and that character basically gets a backseat, as apparently happened to Miyoi (she apparently just...exists nowadays IN HER OWN MANGA).