Tenkko
Onshi
I've voiced my thoughts over some fandom things across several threads so I'll summarize, adding some new things along the way.
The Absolute State of the Touhou Fandom
by a rambling lunatic
Overview
I still hold that the general state of the fandom is good. There's lots of content going around, with more popping up every day, and the general atmosphere is rather nice specially in smaller circles. Occasionally you see a very loud person or group come to attention, but that's quickly forgotten and it's very easy to ignore.
If we're talking about the popularity of Touhou, it's still a very niche thing this side of the world and my prediction is it will continue like that unless ZUN goes all in into commercialization. Which I doubt will happen. Not to mention the genre of the games is also not very popular and kinda hard to get into. And I know not everyone likes Touhou for the games but what I'm getting at is that at its core, Touhou is a videogame series.
Everything said I do think the community will continue to grow and I think that growth is an overall good thing, even if the rats are out there. I don't think it will ever reach the "mainstream", if you wanna call it that.
Feedback Loop
First of all let's talk about the obvious feedback loop with the older games that's always been a thing (particularly with EoSD), where people discover Touhou through works about the old generations and gain a preference for it, making more content or promoting it in some other way, which makes it more prevalent and easier to find. Other people find Touhou through it and the cycle repeats.
Is that a problem? Yyyyyyyyes and no. Over-saturation is a real issue and you can tell just by looking at the tag counts on different sites. You could argue that those games have been out for longer so of course there's more content and that's true BUT, I think the graph is still way too skewed. That said I also don't think it's a problem because, even if there's comparatively more content about the older generation of games, there's still plenty to be found of the newer ones. I get that it brings a lot of "Why do we keep reusing the same old characters instead of making more stuff about the newer characters?" but, I think that will come in due time.
I could go on a bit more about this but it's not relevant to the topic, so I'll stop here.
Fanon
The spicy meatball.
So fanon. What's up with that? The way I see it people tend to be very open to fanon interpretations and headcanons and such, often under the caveat that it doesn't ruin the image of the character. Which I take to mean two things:
The first one is completely subjective since I hold that no one has a clear idea of what true canon is, me neither. Not to mention characters can sometimes be a little bare specially when concerning the more minor ones.
The second one is most of why there's a general dislike towards the older fanon and memes nowadays, specially the ones that go into inappropriate territory. I can't speak for Japan and I certainly wouldn't want to give the wrong idea so don't quote me on this, but over there it seems there's much less resistance towards uh, “spicy” stuff. As for the tame ones it's kinda 50/50, some hate it some... may not love it but they enjoy it occasionally.
Now does that hurt the image of the series? Eh, I don't think it's as bad as people say. Like I found Touhou through MADs and YTPMVs, went directly to the canon and quickly learnt “Hey most of what I saw is... just not true. But it's funny sometimes”. And I think that's the key here. You might say "but Tenkko, not everyone's gonna do the same thing you did". True. Not everyone's gonna look that deep but they will look after a certain point. And a small look is often enough for someone to decide if they like something or not. Now if they end up preferring fanon over canon that's, up to them. It's the whole "primary fan vs. secondary fan" discussion, it's dumb as hell.
Whew. Also lots of shipping. I know that's always been a thing not only here but in the Jp fandom as well, but I just feel you see it more often on this side.
Shitposting
I've seen the Youtube shitposting it's uh... it's something. It definitely wasn't there years ago and like others said, I think the fumo boom specially had a lot to do with its rise. It's definitely not a complaint unique to the Touhou fandom of course, but it's understandable that it causes worry.
Does it give Touhou a bad image? Perhaps. I don't really hang around that part to be honest so I couldn't tell you. I'd gauge it's the same as my previous point about fanon.
Shitposting comes and goes with the wind, but it's an ever-present force and there's... nothing that can be done about it.
(also back in my day shitposting was better)
Western content
Well there's obviously lots and lots of western content, mostly in the form of artwork and, to a lesser but still considerable degree, fanfiction. But it's true that outside of that it's very sparse and unlike the Jp fandom, there's very few people who dedicate all or most of their attention to Touhou.
I think it has to do with two things: first what I discussed at the very beginning, Touhou is not very big here. Second, which is related, is that people are just not that dedicated on the west, you only see it with like very big multimedia franchises, meanwhile Japan has a whole market for doujin products that's not limited to “very general conventions” (I know doujin doesn't only refer to derivative works, but that's what we're talking about here).
There's also the area of essays and just general talk which doesn't really happen much at large scale, but that's slowly changing. I personally have been running a Tumblr blog that showcases fanworks and have plans to get into streaming. Which is also another empty area, AspreyFM is basically the only consistent Touhou streamer (that isn't limited to the main games).
There's also that old /jp/ idea that "everything western is bad" which is obviously not true. It's not very common nowadays but still pops up on occasion.
Anways, I'll put some creators and works I know that I didn't see mentioned:
Touhou Wiki
I'm not gonna go for too long about this but I think it's worth mentioning. Everyone knows the Touhou Wiki has problems, and I'm not talking about the stuff like the recent incident where someone got too heated. There's a lot of information there that's very biased or just outright incorrect, which is... pretty bad for the place that's supposed to be the main source of information about the series.
This image was circulating a while ago and it's not even an exaggeration at this point.
Social Media
Ough.
I don't wanna say anything specific on social media because that's... difficult, and I don't wanna get put on a watchlist, so I'll just give my vague experiences.
I spent most of my years on Tumblr, starting around 2013, and the fandom there has gone from "very active" to "still there but relatively quiet" nowadays. I made a Twitter account at the end of last year and, my experience there has been... "Please I only wanna look at art". Twitter is very loud. And I don't mean that exclusively in a negative way, but it's just. Too much.
I've never been on Reddit, I just sometimes go there to peruse some things. That's it.
DMCA and general doomposting
Don't have much to say here but I should mention it. General negativity towards the future of the series is not a new thing, it's a very very quiet voice but it's been there for a while, often about the direction that Touhou's been going in and the quality etc etc. You know the "Touhou is dying" crowd. I think there's some valid points to be obtained from that sector but overall I think it's an exaggeration.
That's one of the reactions I've seen towards the DMCAs as well, the others being a "general compliance but it's kind of a bad move", and "this is a good thing and people should stop complaining". There's a lot of people that got on that high horse which honestly surprised me (the recent PC98 thing seems to have turned some stomachs though). But that aside, the biggest takeaway for me is that there's clearly a demand for Touhou content here.
Closing thoughts
Pretty much what I said at the beginning. Fandom is growing and will continue to grow and that's good. Will it ever be as big as it is in Japan? I highly doubt it, because like I mentioned it's not only a question of how popular Touhou is, but also the lack of a real uh, "culture" around derivative content that Japan has. Maybe I'm completely wrong about that latter part but that's what I've seen after all this time. I've also noticed quite a few people that know at least something about Touhou, be it characters, music or even just the name. But that's not here nor there.
Anyways that's all. Anything I missed? Any point you disagree with? Do you have ideas on how some things could change? Different predictions? Am I just completely insane? Please let me know.
The Absolute State of the Touhou Fandom
by a rambling lunatic
Overview
I still hold that the general state of the fandom is good. There's lots of content going around, with more popping up every day, and the general atmosphere is rather nice specially in smaller circles. Occasionally you see a very loud person or group come to attention, but that's quickly forgotten and it's very easy to ignore.
If we're talking about the popularity of Touhou, it's still a very niche thing this side of the world and my prediction is it will continue like that unless ZUN goes all in into commercialization. Which I doubt will happen. Not to mention the genre of the games is also not very popular and kinda hard to get into. And I know not everyone likes Touhou for the games but what I'm getting at is that at its core, Touhou is a videogame series.
Everything said I do think the community will continue to grow and I think that growth is an overall good thing, even if the rats are out there. I don't think it will ever reach the "mainstream", if you wanna call it that.
Feedback Loop
First of all let's talk about the obvious feedback loop with the older games that's always been a thing (particularly with EoSD), where people discover Touhou through works about the old generations and gain a preference for it, making more content or promoting it in some other way, which makes it more prevalent and easier to find. Other people find Touhou through it and the cycle repeats.
Is that a problem? Yyyyyyyyes and no. Over-saturation is a real issue and you can tell just by looking at the tag counts on different sites. You could argue that those games have been out for longer so of course there's more content and that's true BUT, I think the graph is still way too skewed. That said I also don't think it's a problem because, even if there's comparatively more content about the older generation of games, there's still plenty to be found of the newer ones. I get that it brings a lot of "Why do we keep reusing the same old characters instead of making more stuff about the newer characters?" but, I think that will come in due time.
I could go on a bit more about this but it's not relevant to the topic, so I'll stop here.
Fanon
The spicy meatball.
So fanon. What's up with that? The way I see it people tend to be very open to fanon interpretations and headcanons and such, often under the caveat that it doesn't ruin the image of the character. Which I take to mean two things:
- It doesn't stray too far from canon, personality wise
- It doesn't turn them into a walking stereotype/trope
The first one is completely subjective since I hold that no one has a clear idea of what true canon is, me neither. Not to mention characters can sometimes be a little bare specially when concerning the more minor ones.
The second one is most of why there's a general dislike towards the older fanon and memes nowadays, specially the ones that go into inappropriate territory. I can't speak for Japan and I certainly wouldn't want to give the wrong idea so don't quote me on this, but over there it seems there's much less resistance towards uh, “spicy” stuff. As for the tame ones it's kinda 50/50, some hate it some... may not love it but they enjoy it occasionally.
Now does that hurt the image of the series? Eh, I don't think it's as bad as people say. Like I found Touhou through MADs and YTPMVs, went directly to the canon and quickly learnt “Hey most of what I saw is... just not true. But it's funny sometimes”. And I think that's the key here. You might say "but Tenkko, not everyone's gonna do the same thing you did". True. Not everyone's gonna look that deep but they will look after a certain point. And a small look is often enough for someone to decide if they like something or not. Now if they end up preferring fanon over canon that's, up to them. It's the whole "primary fan vs. secondary fan" discussion, it's dumb as hell.
Whew. Also lots of shipping. I know that's always been a thing not only here but in the Jp fandom as well, but I just feel you see it more often on this side.
Shitposting
I've seen the Youtube shitposting it's uh... it's something. It definitely wasn't there years ago and like others said, I think the fumo boom specially had a lot to do with its rise. It's definitely not a complaint unique to the Touhou fandom of course, but it's understandable that it causes worry.
Does it give Touhou a bad image? Perhaps. I don't really hang around that part to be honest so I couldn't tell you. I'd gauge it's the same as my previous point about fanon.
Shitposting comes and goes with the wind, but it's an ever-present force and there's... nothing that can be done about it.
(also back in my day shitposting was better)
Western content
Well there's obviously lots and lots of western content, mostly in the form of artwork and, to a lesser but still considerable degree, fanfiction. But it's true that outside of that it's very sparse and unlike the Jp fandom, there's very few people who dedicate all or most of their attention to Touhou.
I think it has to do with two things: first what I discussed at the very beginning, Touhou is not very big here. Second, which is related, is that people are just not that dedicated on the west, you only see it with like very big multimedia franchises, meanwhile Japan has a whole market for doujin products that's not limited to “very general conventions” (I know doujin doesn't only refer to derivative works, but that's what we're talking about here).
There's also the area of essays and just general talk which doesn't really happen much at large scale, but that's slowly changing. I personally have been running a Tumblr blog that showcases fanworks and have plans to get into streaming. Which is also another empty area, AspreyFM is basically the only consistent Touhou streamer (that isn't limited to the main games).
There's also that old /jp/ idea that "everything western is bad" which is obviously not true. It's not very common nowadays but still pops up on occasion.
Anways, I'll put some creators and works I know that I didn't see mentioned:
- +TEK (plustek): not Touhou focused but has done a few arrangement albums in a really nice FM style
- ShinkoNet/NetCavy: again not strictly Touhou focused, but known for some great Eurobeat arrangements among other stuff
- asi14: straightforward PC98 arrangements, they're nice.
- Paradise of Boundaries: a mostly hispanic community. They have done some music arrangements and are currently working on a fangame
- Potemki11: made Udongein X, a very polished Megaman X clone with Reisen, and seems to be working on an SMT style game starring Sumireko
- Servants of Harvest Wish and Sapphire Panlogism: two really good danmaku games
- Cross the Boundaries: one I found about recently. It's a horror game about the Hifuu girls, very reminiscent of RPGMaker games of yore. Still in development but has a pretty good demo.
- ShinkoNet/NetCavy: again not strictly Touhou focused, but known for some great Eurobeat arrangements among other stuff
- asi14: straightforward PC98 arrangements, they're nice.
- Paradise of Boundaries: a mostly hispanic community. They have done some music arrangements and are currently working on a fangame
- Potemki11: made Udongein X, a very polished Megaman X clone with Reisen, and seems to be working on an SMT style game starring Sumireko
- Servants of Harvest Wish and Sapphire Panlogism: two really good danmaku games
- Cross the Boundaries: one I found about recently. It's a horror game about the Hifuu girls, very reminiscent of RPGMaker games of yore. Still in development but has a pretty good demo.
I'm not gonna go for too long about this but I think it's worth mentioning. Everyone knows the Touhou Wiki has problems, and I'm not talking about the stuff like the recent incident where someone got too heated. There's a lot of information there that's very biased or just outright incorrect, which is... pretty bad for the place that's supposed to be the main source of information about the series.
This image was circulating a while ago and it's not even an exaggeration at this point.
Ough.
I don't wanna say anything specific on social media because that's... difficult, and I don't wanna get put on a watchlist, so I'll just give my vague experiences.
I spent most of my years on Tumblr, starting around 2013, and the fandom there has gone from "very active" to "still there but relatively quiet" nowadays. I made a Twitter account at the end of last year and, my experience there has been... "Please I only wanna look at art". Twitter is very loud. And I don't mean that exclusively in a negative way, but it's just. Too much.
I've never been on Reddit, I just sometimes go there to peruse some things. That's it.
DMCA and general doomposting
Don't have much to say here but I should mention it. General negativity towards the future of the series is not a new thing, it's a very very quiet voice but it's been there for a while, often about the direction that Touhou's been going in and the quality etc etc. You know the "Touhou is dying" crowd. I think there's some valid points to be obtained from that sector but overall I think it's an exaggeration.
That's one of the reactions I've seen towards the DMCAs as well, the others being a "general compliance but it's kind of a bad move", and "this is a good thing and people should stop complaining". There's a lot of people that got on that high horse which honestly surprised me (the recent PC98 thing seems to have turned some stomachs though). But that aside, the biggest takeaway for me is that there's clearly a demand for Touhou content here.
Closing thoughts
Pretty much what I said at the beginning. Fandom is growing and will continue to grow and that's good. Will it ever be as big as it is in Japan? I highly doubt it, because like I mentioned it's not only a question of how popular Touhou is, but also the lack of a real uh, "culture" around derivative content that Japan has. Maybe I'm completely wrong about that latter part but that's what I've seen after all this time. I've also noticed quite a few people that know at least something about Touhou, be it characters, music or even just the name. But that's not here nor there.
Anyways that's all. Anything I missed? Any point you disagree with? Do you have ideas on how some things could change? Different predictions? Am I just completely insane? Please let me know.
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