Spicy Touhou takes

[Eulogous]

9 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:

On this kind of line, I have the feeling you you also don't have too high of an opinion about artist like Fusu? (don't worry, I don't think too high of him either...). You know, with turning the 2hus into generic anime girls confessing their love for you, the self-insert from whose point of view those images are built

I am very aware of Fusu's work, and surprisingly I don't mind this sort of art. It's absolutely not for me, but I don't take joy in demeaning other's tastes or what they do in their private time. Honestly, when it comes to fanart, I really don't care as much as say a fangame, because so many people will draw and be paid to draw these characters in literally any situation since it's their line of work, and it's a fruitless battle trying to change or even care about it imo.

Fusu is just one of many Touhou artists that make this sort of content, but suddenly, just because one person started spamming r/Touhou with their art, they are now the poster boy that deserves to be "called out" for "misinterpreting our beloved characters". The only problem I have with Fusu's art is the samey-ness of it all, there's an over-reliance of the same foward-facing shot and there's little variation of it.

"Ah yes, how do we deal with such a person? By making a parody of their art talking down to anyone who could remotely enjoy such a heinous thing, because they deserve to be treated that way for not being what we have deemed to be 'normal'."

Many Western fans see themselves as the arbiters of what's "right" and "wrong" and pretend what they believe is objective and indisputable. It's often why I prefer not to interact with anyone about these topics, because their mind is already made up, discussion is impossible, and I'll likely be put on display for the amusement of an echo chamber.

I don't direct this ire towards you, Count. It just sort of strikes a nerve seeing people obsess over nothing remotely constructive and pretend they are making a change for the "better".

[OkuuFallout]

Remembering that there was a mention of pronunciations earlier in this topic, I wanted to go back to that.

Regarding the accent change, I really don't think it matters much. But the one thing that irks me are the phonetic pronunciations of the characters. One of the great things about the Japanese language is its pronunciations of their characters (kanji isn't really a part of this, since they're technically Chinese characters and different sounds for them have changed over time).

That's why when I hear people say "Sir-no", it really annoys me. Cirno's japanese spelling is チルノ, or when romanized, "Chi-ru-no" (do note, however, that the "u" in "ru" cannot be omitted like in some other foreign words pronunciations). If it was spelled "しるノ", or "shi-ru-no", it would be correct since the Japanese language doesn't have a native "si" sound, and they often don't bother pronouncing foreign words like that. So that's why when I hear "Sir-no", I always cringe.

Flandre is also a mispronounced character. This one doesn't really bother me, I even knowingly mispronounce it myself. But I have yet to hear it said in its correct way. At the end of "Flandre", the "e" is pronounced. However, in the Japanese spelling, it is spelled "フランドール", or "fu-ra-n-dō-ru". Because of the last character being "ru" and not "re", a non-Japanese pronunciation would most likely really be something like "Flander".

[buskerdog]

1 hour ago, OkuuFallout said:

Remembering that there was a mention of pronunciations earlier in this topic, I wanted to go back to that.

Regarding the accent change, I really don't think it matters much. But the one thing that irks me are the phonetic pronunciations of the characters. One of the great things about the Japanese language is its pronunciations of their characters (kanji isn't really a part of this, since they're technically Chinese characters and different sounds for them have changed over time).

That's why when I hear people say "Sir-no", it really annoys me. Cirno's japanese spelling is チルノ, or when romanized, "Chi-ru-no" (do note, however, that the "u" in "ru" cannot be omitted like in some other foreign words pronunciations). If it was spelled "しるノ", or "shi-ru-no", it would be correct since the Japanese language doesn't have a native "si" sound, and they often don't bother pronouncing foreign words like that. So that's why when I hear "Sir-no", I always cringe.

Flandre is also a mispronounced character. This one doesn't really bother me, I even knowingly mispronounce it myself. But I have yet to hear it said in its correct way. At the end of "Flandre", the "e" is pronounced. However, in the Japanese spelling, it is spelled "フランドール", or "fu-ra-n-dō-ru". Because of the last character being "ru" and not "re", a non-Japanese pronunciation would most likely really be something like "Flander".

^ This

Also, although this doesn't bother me at all, it is funny how much our side of the fandom mispronounces Reimu's name. れ(re)＋い(i)＝long れ(re) sound. The "i" is silent. That's right, "Raymoo" is no more.

[OkuuFallout]

12 minutes ago, buskerdog said:

Also, although this doesn't bother me at all, it is funny how much our side of the fandom mispronounces Reimu's name. れ(re)＋い(i)＝long れ(re) sound. The "i" is silent. That's right, "Raymoo" is no more.

After some research, I found out that the "i" is silent sometimes. I knew about "u" sometimes being silent, but not "i". So as I was first about to type this, I was going to say "i" is never silent, which I would've been wrong.

However, after researching this, I can confirm that the "i" in "Reimu" is not silent. The only times it can be silent are between two consonant sounds that do not use a voice (k, s, sh, t, ch, h and f), and on certain occasions they are "devoiced", as it is called, regardless (most notably in "desu" and "masu", where the "u" is silent). The "i" in "Reimu" does not come after a voiceless consonant, and therefore the "i" is pronounced. The only time I know of a vowel being silent after another vowel is in "ou", where it draws out the "o", like in "youkai". Even then, some words have a double "o", like in "おおきい/大きい", or "ookii", which means "big".

In fact, if anything was to be wrongly pronounced in Reimu's name, it would actually be the opposite, somewhat. Even some Japanese people don't do this. The "ay" sound in "Reimu" would technically be broken down further to emphasize the difference between the "e" and "i" more, making it kind of like "Re-ee-moo" (where "ee" is the same as a Japanese "i"). If you don't believe me, look no further than the classic, "Neko Miko Reimu", in which the singer emphasizes each syllable in "Reimu", although it is emphasized more heavily than normal. But like I said before, some Japanese people don't emphasize individual consonant sounds, and just do it fast enough to be more of a blend between the two.

[buskerdog]

On 3/2/2023 at 9:18 PM, OkuuFallout said:

After some research, I found out that the "i" is silent sometimes. I knew about "u" sometimes being silent, but not "i". So as I was first about to type this, I was going to say "i" is never silent, which I would've been wrong.

However, after researching this, I can confirm that the "i" in "Reimu" is not silent. The only times it can be silent are between two consonant sounds that do not use a voice (k, s, sh, t, ch, h and f), and on certain occasions they are "devoiced", as it is called, regardless (most notably in "desu" and "masu", where the "u" is silent). The "i" in "Reimu" does not come after a voiceless consonant, and therefore the "i" is pronounced. The only time I know of a vowel being silent after another vowel is in "ou", where it draws out the "o", like in "youkai". Even then, some words have a double "o", like in "おおきい/大きい", or "ookii", which means "big".

In fact, if anything was to be wrongly pronounced in Reimu's name, it would actually be the opposite, somewhat. Even some Japanese people don't do this. The "ay" sound in "Reimu" would technically be broken down further to emphasize the difference between the "e" and "i" more, making it kind of like "Re-ee-moo" (where "ee" is the same as a Japanese "i"). If you don't believe me, look no further than the classic, "Neko Miko Reimu", in which the singer emphasizes each syllable in "Reimu", although it is emphasized more heavily than normal.

I didn't know that い extended え sounds only in certain cases. I did of course know how the chorus of Neko Miko Reimu goes, but I notice that many Japanese songs emphasise individual kana that wouldn't normally be pronounced in conversational speak (for example, separating an おう sound into お and う), so generally I wouldn't go to music as a pronunciation guide. However, I can pick out the い of her name being sounded in doujin anime.

On 3/2/2023 at 9:18 PM, OkuuFallout said:

But like I said before, some Japanese people don't emphasize individual consonant sounds, and just do it fast enough to be more of a blend between the two.

Did you mean vowel sounds?

But tbh, this. Double vowel sounds are very much a matter of subtlety.

I'm not doubting your information, but would you like me to ask some Japanese people about it?

Edit: after doing some research myself I can't find any evidence to suggest what you say is a grammatical rule, and apparently Touhou Lostword itself uses the pronunciation "Reemu". However I can't be asked to keep discussing it so imma just stop here.

Edited March 13, 2023 by buskerdog

[OkuuFallout]

1 hour ago, buskerdog said:

I didn't know that い extended え sounds only in certain cases. I did of course know how the chorus of Neko Miko Reimu goes, but I notice that many Japanese songs emphasise individual kana that wouldn't normally be pronounced in conversational speak (for example, separating an おう sound into お and う), so generally I wouldn't go to music as a pronunciation guide. However, I can pick out the い of her name being sounded in doujin anime.

Did you mean vowel sounds?

But tbh, this. Double vowel sounds are very much a matter of subtlety.

I'm not doubting your information, but would you like me to ask some Japanese people about it?

Oh, you're right. I was just so used to writing "consonant" that I wrote it in place of vowel. So yeah, it was just a mistake. I meant "vowel".