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Spicy Touhou takes


CountVonNumenor

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What are the spiciest takes in regards to Touhou you may have or even believe in? It can be anything about either canon, fanon, the community, ZUN, absolutely anything as long as it is connected to Touhou. Here are some of mine, and they might be quite controversial:

 

  • I have a severe dislike for the Simpsons/"Sazae-san" time logic applied in Gensokyo. It's been 20 year since EoSD, yet everything looks just as much as it did back then. Things do not change, nobody evolves, and somehow the status quo has to be maintained. Maybe I ended up disliking this kind of story-telling as a result of getting fed up by American sitcoms and animated series like the Simpsons or Family Guy, but in a way, I would greatly appreciate a series that grows up together with its audience. 

 

  • Gensokyo will always be ruled by small anim girls and lolis, to put it bluntly. Even if we go by the "they are youkai, and they are shapeshifters" interpretation, how does it come we have never seen them change their aspect? If you are a youkai and want yourself to be respected, do you actually believe looking like a 16 year old girl would be the way to do that? Especially when it comes to those who have the pretention to fight for the rule of Gensokyo - none of them looks very old, or at least old enough to count as an adult who is supposed to be a venerable entity hundreds, if not thousands of years old (Kanako, Byakuren, Miko, whoever else was there as a big deal in Symposium of Post-mysticism etc)

 

  • ZUN has no idea how to draw something that does not look like a loli, and this is clearly not helped by his drawings looking like dolls. Sometimes I doubt he really intended any character to be drawn as an actual woman, even when he had other artists do the work for anything outside the main games. IN a way, I would really have liked to see someone visually grow up, and actually become an adult not just by age, but visually too given for how long some of the series ran. And for that, I believe Akyuu has been a little bit of a wasted opportunity. She does age up in the way that we actually know when she was born, and that she is a regular human, therefore with the chance of being affected by what we commonly call "growing up", yet at her age of 28, she still does not look older than 14. I would be OK with the explanation of her being small in stature, but the rest of her appearances do not really help. And fanart does not do a better job either. Even if we have a very clear age for her, a lot of fanart still likes depicting her the way she looked in the in the Perfect Memento in Strict Sense era (aka the early depictions). Event the latest canon depictions don't make her look like someone in her late 20s either. It's weird to see someone who is almost 30 look like a 14-16 year old girl at best. Yeah, you can blame it on stylization and how much anime style exaggerates features to look as cute as possible, but I just think sometimes the official Touhou art may not do justice when it comes to this kind of problem (also anime/manga art style going closer towards realistic proportions exists). 

Akyuu_evolution_with_ages.png 

Updated the old chart by adding ages just to show a little bit what I mean...
 

  • Oh, and one more thing. Fans when drawing art of Touhou seem to only know two sizes: flat as a wood plans or mommy proportions (especially in terms of mommy milkers or or just being THICC). Where is the middle ground?

 

You can add your own takes or answer to the ones already posted by other users. Anyway, what are your own spicy takes on the series?

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Alright there are a lot of things I want to list, but that will probably take some more time, so I will list some later when I get the time to. A lot of these will probably relate to your takes. @CountVonNumenor

  • History of Gensokyo not being explored as often - Oftentimes Gensokyo itself seems to just exist within the present without much thought to its history. I wished that ZUN gave more thought to this as it seems like he just erased the whole entire history without as much as a reference to the past events. I know that Akyuu seems to chronicle the past, but it seems like a lot of Gensokyo's residents seem to have no recollection of past events, and or never had it come to mind. I wish that he would do either a reboot or a remake given the fact that he seems to want to forget about the PC-98 games.

 

  • People in General Not liking More Non-canon/Mature(Not Adult) Works - Gensokyo/Touhou is mostly regarded as a PG series aimed at people who enjoy funny comedy hahas and/or Yuri in general. People don't seem to pay attention to any Doujin-related works, such as Osana Reimu or Yakumi Sarai (Zounose), and or games because they only see cannibalism/not cannon material and move on. In general, it appears that there is little emphasis on works that explore Gensokyo in a way that most 18-25-year-olds would be interested in. I mean, literally, there are other works that focus on this age demographic that are extremely successful, and I can see something like this exploring Gensokyo in a more in-depth way. I'd like to see how Marisa goes about making her own stuff and/or exploring the world of Gensokyo in greater depth. Marisa has had a much harsher upbringing, especially given that she chose to live alone from her family due to unknown circumstances and practically made everything herself. Reimu doesn't even have parents for all we know! How did she even become a shrine maiden in the first place? What was her upbringing? How was Gensokyo since before the spell card implementation and how did the so called Vampire incident occur? All of this can be explored in non-canon works which surprisingly seem to not be as prominent.

 

  • Actual Threats to Gensokyo, The case of OP MC because whole entire game would be NULL- You know how this works: Reimu, Marisa, and some other character(s) go and try to stop an incident, and it always ends up with the heroine(s) winning, even if the opponent is literally a god or somebody that can literally screw around with space and time and everything in between. This kind of winning makes me really doubt the power of these "Youkai," who can just be beaten by the shrine maiden, who can just whack them with a gohei stick that seems to have grown as big as a log since the olden days. "But what about the Hakurei Barrier?" "Wouldn't it break?" What? You think Reimu is the sole person holding it together? She maintains it; she isn't the one who put it there in the first place. Yukari and the other sages are the ones who built the barrier and know how to repair it in the first place. Heck, Yukari even messes around with the barrier when she is bored and knows how to manipulate it to her will to go in and out without trouble.                                                                                                                                                                                                 I have no doubt that Yukari would be the one to teach the Hakurei's how to keep it in tip-top shape in the first place. The only logical reason she is thinking of maintaining the Hakureis is as a form of human power projection and the reduced work load she would have to do. She already has Ran and Chen to do most of her work around Gensokyo. So why not another one that deals with troublemakers and does another part of her work for her in maintaining the Hakurei Barrier? It would be stupid to create a barrier that only one person is able to maintain, fix, and uphold. So I don't see why there isn't an actual ending where an incident occurs and other forces within Gensokyo deal with it in their own way, or where the incident permanently changes something within Gensokyo.
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 1683735564_GapEyeIcon.png.510261214f2118b1068fb86f8b100dcb.png Touhou Enjoyer & World Building Enthusiast  1683735564_GapEyeIcon.png.510261214f2118b1068fb86f8b100dcb.png

 

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6 hours ago, Reitisen said:

I wish that he would do either a reboot or a remake given the fact that he seems to want to forget about the PC-98 games.

ZUN literally said that we, Touhou fans, should consider PC98 games as fan games 

6 hours ago, Reitisen said:

Marisa has had a much harsher upbringing, especially given that she chose to live alone from her family due to unknown circumstances and practically made everything herself. Reimu doesn't even have parents for all we know! How did she even become a shrine maiden in the first place? What was her upbringing? How was Gensokyo since before the spell card implementation and how did the so called Vampire incident occur? All of this can be explored in non-canon works which surprisingly seem to not be as prominent.

 

About Marisa and her family :

« Marisa's family runs a large second-hand shop in the Human Village, called the "Kirisame Shop". Marisa has broken off relations with her family, and avoids everything related to them. She says to Rinnosuke Morichika that she'll never go back to them, and refuses to entertain the idea. In Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, it's stated that her family is a private matter and the details are unclear. The book also hypothesizes that since the Kirisame Shop doesn't handle things related to magic items, it may be one reason why Marisa left. » (source : Touhou Wiki)

About the Vampire incident :

Thanks to a spell of course

6 hours ago, Reitisen said:

You know how this works: Reimu, Marisa, and some other character(s) go and try to stop an incident, and it always ends up with the heroine(s) winning, even if the opponent is literally a god or somebody that can literally screw around with space and time and everything in between. 

Reimu and Marisa are really powerful, Reimu is able to do a lot of things as long as she keeps her mind pure and Marisa was interested in magic since little, Mima choosed her as her disciple and teach her magic. Btw they are not fighting like we imagine but they are "playing" Danmaku it’s just about defeating someone with a beautiful pattern.

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18 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:

If you are a youkai and want yourself to be respected, do you actually believe looking like a 16 year old girl would be the way to do that?

Well, it clearly seems to be working? Most youkai we see depicted in non-humanoid form happen to be pretty low-ranking ones such as Mamizou's goons or some of the Komakusa patrons. The only notable exceptions are dragons and divine beasts, if I recall correctly (though neither of those are youkai). Maybe there's a bell curve of sorts present?

Edited by ACE_DEUCE
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2 hours ago, ACE_DEUCE said:

Well, it clearly seems to be working? Most youkai we see depicted in non-humanoid form happen to be pretty low-ranking ones such as Mamizou's goons or some of the Komakusa patrons. [...] Maybe there's a bell curve of sorts present?

Honestly, I am not sure how it works besides pure anime logic. I mean in terms of the little girls being in charge of an entire realm. Unless they are supposed to be older than they look like, and ZUN just sucks at drawing/giving indications on how the characters should look like when he has someone else do the art (no offense towards the artists who have worked on that content, their art is actually quite good). 

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39 minutes ago, CountVonNumenor said:

Unless they are supposed to be older than they look like, and ZUN just sucks at drawing/giving indications on how the characters should look like when he has someone else do the art (no offense towards the artists who have worked on that content, their art is actually quite good). 

We’ve already talked about how ZUN draw mature characters didn’t we ? x)

Yukari for example is supposed to look like a 20+ years old women, and all he did to make her more mature looking is to put some lipstick on her…

fun fact : Yukari sometimes use a phone to talk with her shikigami, can’t she just create a gap to talk with them instead of depending on her phone ? 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Oh, it's been a while since I have last been here. Honestly, I forgot I wrote the thread, and I was very close to "starting" it this afternoon. However, good to see it is already here. 

 

On 1/17/2023 at 11:38 PM, Nekofire said:

We’ve already talked about how ZUN draw mature characters didn’t we ? x)

I think we did. We just need a reminder on the conclusion from that discussion. In that case, probably one of the most interesting ZUN comments about age is related to one of his "Miscellaneous drawings" from before EoSD. He said he wanted to draw an adult in one of these images, but said it ended up much younger than he planned. 

 

On 1/17/2023 at 11:38 PM, Nekofire said:

ukari for example is supposed to look like a 20+ years old women, and all he did to make her more mature looking is to put some lipstick on her…

I don't think I have noticed the lipstick before. What image/art of hers is that?

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3 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:

Oh, it's been a while since I have last been here. Honestly, I forgot I wrote the thread, and I was very close to "starting" it this afternoon. However, good to see it is already here. 

I didn’t went on any social media for two weeks now… I have the combo winter + I’ve caught the flu + exams so I don’t have the time anymore to interact on Moriya Shrine :TenshiCry:

3 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:

I don't think I have noticed the lipstick before. What image/art of hers is that?

It’s in PCB look very closely and you’ll see it 

1FF278C1-503D-4AAE-A2EE-A5913047C96E.thumb.jpeg.5340a33dc228567269d19ad28f70b04b.jpeg

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23 minutes ago, Nekofire said:

I didn’t went on any social media for two weeks now… I have the combo winter + I’ve caught the flu + exams so I don’t have the time anymore to interact on Moriya Shrine :TenshiCry:

Oh, do not worry. Last week was the flu week for me, accompanied by strong coughing. This week however was the one that brought the exams, and that's how I'll for the following couple weeks as well. 

 

25 minutes ago, Nekofire said:

It’s in PCB look very closely and you’ll see it 

Holy shit, I never noticed that. Nice detail! I think I may have only once noticed it in another official work, and that was in Forbidden Scrollery in regards to Reisen:

unknown.png

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9 hours ago, sodaodaoda said:

I always thought it was her smiling with her mouth open, like this:
image.thumb.png.287a53b426548d93aa8de228054dc322.png

 me too at first :KoishiXD: (nice drawing btw)

 

Btw I forgot to say there is something that gets me very frustrated : nobody cares about canon design of Koakuma, Daiyousei or even Okuu (there’s smol atoms around her ankle)

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9 hours ago, Nekofire said:

Btw I forgot to say there is something that gets me very frustrated : nobody cares about canon design of Koakuma, Daiyousei or even Okuu (there’s smol atoms around her ankle)

The way the fandom portrays Okuu has always gotten on my nerves. The electron-like things orbiting her right ankle are just one feature people forget. Both of her legs have something going on with them, with the left foot being encased in concrete. These two details are meant to symbolize atomic fission (orbiting electrons) and fusion (concrete foot).

One thing I will add, however, is the frequently missing control rod on her right arm. Normally, a detail like this would kind of bother me, but there are official character art pieces where she does not have it (take the Hisoutensoku sprite from my profile picture, for example), so I can accept this. Plus, it would be annoying to have to constantly keep that in her design.

The thing that I hate the most, however, is the portrayal of her chest size. In all of her official artwork, sprites and anything else, she is more or less flat. Yet, I think I've only seen one fan interpretation ever that has acknowledged and kept that detail, and I've probably seen hundreds, if not more. I don't even remember what that single portrayal was, probably because of all the others burying it in my mind. After looking through the files I have of her, there are surprisingly multiple designs that keep the chest (somewhat) flat. I did find that Alphes, the artist for the first few fighting games, did draw her with a bigger chest, however I don't think this was meant for Hisoutensoku.

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2 hours ago, OkuuFallout said:

I did find that Alphes, the artist for the first few fighting games, did draw her with a bigger chest, however I don't think this was meant for Hisoutensoku.

I mean Alphes is already known to have drawn Touhou characters with larger chest than usually depicted in official media. Anyone remembers his version of Yuugi?

Th11PromotionalArt.jpg

And speaking of Yuugi, that also appeared for most of her depiction ever since. Be it in the background sprite from Hopeless Masquerade...

Th135Yuugi&Suika.png

... or even if you want to consider her portrait from Who's Who of Humans & Youkai to count in that category:

Yuugi_Whos_Who.png

 

12 hours ago, Nekofire said:

Btw I forgot to say there is something that gets me very frustrated : nobody cares about canon design of Koakuma, Daiyousei or even Okuu (there’s smol atoms around her ankle)

What exactly do you mean in the case of "Daiyousei" and "Koakuma"? If you mean people not depicting them as they appeared in the little spites from EoSD, there are still, even if rare, artists who drew them as in those sprites:

01nokra4d7n71.png?width=440&format=png&a

__koakuma_touhou_drawn_by_kuya_hey362536

Thing is "Koakuma" did appear in canon art the way most people depict her, in that tuxedo thing. Her EoSD robes have been a one-time thing, then official art switched to what she is better known for:

SCoOW6Koakuma.png

From Strange Creators of Outer World

Koakuma_in_ch_2_of_Foul_Detective_Satori

This is an interesting alternate outfit from Cheating Detective Satori (yes, I prefer this name for the series instead of the current "Foul Detective")

KoakumaIOTMIOTE.jpg

Also Koakuma in the (albeit non-canon) Inaba of the Moon and Inaba of the Earth

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5 hours ago, OkuuFallout said:

The way the fandom portrays Okuu has always gotten on my nerves. The electron-like things orbiting her right ankle are just one feature people forget. Both of her legs have something going on with them, with the left foot being encased in concrete. These two details are meant to symbolize atomic fission (orbiting electrons) and fusion (concrete foot).

One thing I will add, however, is the frequently missing control rod on her right arm. Normally, a detail like this would kind of bother me, but there are official character art pieces where she does not have it (take the Hisoutensoku sprite from my profile picture, for example), so I can accept this. Plus, it would be annoying to have to constantly keep that in her design.

I didn't knew that but those details makes her looks more impressive O_O  

 

2 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:

What exactly do you mean in the case of "Daiyousei" and "Koakuma"? If you mean people not depicting them as they appeared in the little spites from EoSD, there are still, even if rare, artists who drew them as in those sprites:

I prefer Koakuma as she was in EoSD if you (once again) look closely to her sprite, you can see that her dress is cuter than the one she wear in the majority of fanarts + she have short hair and no wings in the back :3

Spoiler

E_T5h61VgAMJgJV.png.0cbca82e7846933a4e311d60aaa08275.png

So a fan did this drawing which really looks like her EoSD sprite

Spoiler

Koakuma-0.webp.758004e2bd129021e15da4bfba74f2dc.webp

Then we have Daiyousei, if you look (again) closely, you can see a bunch of turquoise pixel around her waist which is a ribbon that nobody have ever noticed... also her hair is shorter than Cirno's ^^

Spoiler

e0oe4mt6d7n71.webp.40cf758e76b1622e1f6631e41f7ced16.webp

As you may know, Touhou Lost Word ALWAYS takes the official designs when it comes to make the A6 (or A any number) characters so here it is...

Spoiler

2053303424_-6400-1024x505.thumb.jpg.63256c032948fa2e8358e90eb9a3bce8.jpg

(and A6 remilia + meiling cuz why not)

Spoiler

Fm5o4IkaMAIQvFP.thumb.png.414b2a67f41f577e63e5362e0bc4a5ed.png1653814037_-4441-.jpg.7c3cb5742db2272e27bdb853a725396e.jpg

 

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On 1/31/2023 at 12:56 AM, Nekofire said:

As you may know, Touhou Lost Word ALWAYS takes the official designs when it comes to make the A6 (or A any number) characters so here it is...

Yeah, it is actually quite a surprise that LostWord (out of any Touhou media, official or fan-made) has decided to actually go with the canon designs of those two nameless mid-bosses for their units from the EoSD retro universe. 

 

On 1/31/2023 at 12:56 AM, Nekofire said:

So a fan did this drawing which really looks like her EoSD sprite

I also posted a fanart based on that sprite in the previous reply. It is a nice design, I will not lie, even if most likely it was not supposed to be anything special when the original game came out back in 2002. The only difference is that in my post I have also added a few more canon depictions of "Koakuma", in other outfits she was dressed in for official sources. It is just that her most recent official art (besides any feature in CDS), the one from Strange Creators of Outer World, has decided to fixate her outfit to the business lady tuxedo one people got so used to due to g=fan culture gathered in almost 20 years between EoSD and first edition of Who's Who of Humans & Youkai. 

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I've been meaning to add to this for some time, but I didn't have my thoughts sorted at the time. A lot of what's on my mind would probably be nitpicks, but here goes:

  • Inconsistent Info
    • I think the Human Village has it the worst in this regard. Are Youkai allowed to roam freely as long as they don't cause trouble? PMiSS suggests it's that way, but in a lot of other Print Works it feels like if a Youkai is even believed to be spotted, the entire village would be in uproar and moral panic ensues. Also, they may be Moon Rabbits, but it is stated both Ringo and Seiren have dango stands they run in the village and depicts them without disguises and everything seems just fine (source: Alternate Facts in Eastern Utopia).

PMiSS's Human Village Excerpt: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Human_Village

  • Inconsistent Info Pt.2
    • Another one I remember is it being stated (I believe in Symposium of Post-mysticism) that beings like Kanako are resistant against possessions from vengeful spirits, however in  Cheating Detective Satori, they claim that they are particularly weak against them. Cheating Detective Satori is kind of a dumpster fire in my opinion, like suggesting Mokou is a Youkai from when Mizuchi proclaims in Ch.16 Page 25: "...A Youkai cannot fight a vengeful spirit" then follows up on the next page: "because inside, you're all the same". It feels like the setting and characters are whatever ZUN needs them to be for the story he wants to tell.
      • Then that leads into my next gripe, the fandom excuses. Setting inconsistencies? "Unreliable narrator, of course." Characters acting strange? "Every Print Work is told through the lens of the focal character, so naturally there'd be differences." If everything is supposed to be unreliable, and there is no clear picture of what Gensokyo or its inhabitants are like, why should I care about literally anything? I know ZUN probably forgot a few things over the years, but when the fandom comes up with some profound and artistic reason for it, it comes off as fairly obnoxious to me.

 

  • The Music isn't as Great as Everyone Says it is
    • Probably more like a nuclear take, and I'll say Touhou music as a whole is generally good, but I see people make it out that every song is an amazing masterpiece. To me, there are a lot of forgettable filler tracks, but I know that's just due to my taste ("History of the Moon" and "Nostalgic Blood of the East" are the only IN songs I actually care for, as an example). There are amazing remixes of songs, but I don't count those when forming an opinion towards the original composition. Conversely, a lot of songs I like either get no attention, or lackluster remixes (I actually enjoy a lot of PC-98's compositions despite the painful sound quality). Bonus spicy take: I don't care much for Vocal Remixes or the super high-energy styles or metal, I prefer instrumental music like jazz, traditional, or classical styles.

 

  • Fanon
    • Headcanons are fine and all until they start getting pushed as fact, or just disrespect a character. To this day, the only fangame I've played that treats Meiling as remotely competent and self-respecting is Sengoku Gensokyo. Fanon can be a wonderful tool to expand on a character that get no attention, or piece together a wider narrative from the breadcrumbs left by ZUN, but nope, memes. I don't even hate memes, and I find some kind of funny, but after a while they lose their appeal and end up becoming the entire personality of a character. I know this isn't much of a hot take, but thought I'd add it.
      • Also some characters get literally nothing worthwhile. One of my favorite characters, Shou, is either reduced to "forgor Pagoda" or just grouped under the umbrella of "Myouren Temple members don't follow their own teachings" despite being the Avatar of Bishamonten, and disrespecting him would likely result in being smote (also the point of Nazrin is to keep tabs on her). It sucks too because she's a case of a Youkai effectively evolving into something more (she was destined to disappear because the fear of what tigers even were dwindled). Thanks Akyuu, the one time fans don't outright discredit everything you say is to support their dumb headcanons (Referring to her entry on Byakuren under "Countermeasures" in SoPM where the suggestion of being more afraid of her Youkai followers being twisted by fanon to mean every member).

 

  • Western Content Sort of Sucks
    • I'll mention fangames first, and specifically the lack of Western-made ones. There are tons of talented people on this side of the fandom, but I can never seem to find a complete game, or something that's not just a reskin of an existing game, but worse, with Touhou characters plastered over it with terrible writing. This isn't something exclusive to this side of the fandom, but I like to be able to read, and a lot of what I'd want to play isn't translated. I've run across many people who spout "Touhou is the fan content", so I start to expect a bit more out of this fandom compared to others.
    • I've mentioned this elsewhere, but the video content I've watched is really lackluster. Kind of hate the format where someone just reads off the Wiki, or gives a shallow rundown of an event/game they had no personal experience or attachment to. Suwawako's "The Touhoucon Failure" was interesting for the first-hand experience compared to something like "The Touhou Cannonball Failure" where it's just random other people's accounts of what happened (granted there were some rare good bits of info). The last one bugs me more as someone who played Cannonball when it was still alive (used a screen translator app which was a pain, but I got to experience the story at least).

 

  • The Pronunciation War
    • I don't care if it's pronounced "Chiruno", "Churro" , "Chernobyl" or whatever, I see "Cirno" and in my tongue I pronounce it "Sir-no". I see the name "Marisa" (a Western name mind you) and I go "Muh-riss-uh" compared to the fans I hear fake a Japanese accent just to say "Mari-sah" and return to their normal way of speaking. My pronunciation isn't correct, I know, but it irks me when people change accents randomly for one name. Discussions about it often devolve into getting on other people's cases about the right way to say it, which involves lengthy talks about language as a whole, blah blah.

 

  • Miscellaneous
    • Random thoughts I don't feel like going overly in-depth about:
      • PC-98 Stage Enemy variety and behavior are more interesting then a majority of Windows. Sure, in Windows they can shoot the pretty patterns, but what happened to enemies that interact with the Stages themselves?
      • MoF's Power-based Bombs (Spirit Attacks, whatever) are handled well, and SA made them crap since there is no "reserve" Power that doesn't affect your damage output.
      • ZUN, please cut back on using the Elementics DrumKit, everything post-HSiFS feels like it uses it, and static-y drums all the time are kind of painful. A lot of great tracks feel worse off because of it.
      • LostWord's combat system is actually pretty interesting with the Barrier system, but it sucks that it's in a gacha game, where every number is cosmically high and nebulous.
      • I hate the crazy inconsistent quality of mainline Touhou's gimmick systems. PCB's was simple and easy to understand, and DDC's encourages use of the Point of Collection. Granted, I do like some of the gimmick ideas in the latest games, so I guess this is more of a frustration towards older titles.
      • I miss when Point Tiles had more value, like collecting a certain number of them just gave you an Extra Life. On that note, why can these games never decide whether or not to always convert Power Tiles into other Tiles when at Full Power? Also don't like constantly moving down in decimal value in terms of Tile worth (0.1 -> 0.05 -> 0.01).
      • The original art style for Cheating Detective Satori was better, because at least there were characters that had alternate outfits. Also not a fan of the wacky over-the-top facial expressions in the current style, some of them look really stupid.
      • Moeblob and Grimsokyo are both equally annoying fanon extremes.
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Thank you @Eulogous for the contribution, you have really saved this thread. I was starting to lose hope anyone else would contribute with their own take. Unfortunately, I can't write a developed answer tonight, since I finally finished with the exams and made my way back home. But from tomorrow on, I should be back to being just as active as I used to be. Therefore, get ready for kind of a long answer to some of the points you have raised...

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On 2/8/2023 at 12:04 AM, Eulogous said:

I've been meaning to add to this for some time, but I didn't have my thoughts sorted at the time. A lot of what's on my mind would probably be nitpicks, but here goes:

  • Inconsistent Info
    • I think the Human Village has it the worst in this regard. Are Youkai allowed to roam freely as long as they don't cause trouble? PMiSS suggests it's that way, but in a lot of other Print Works it feels like if a Youkai is even believed to be spotted, the entire village would be in uproar and moral panic ensues. Also, they may be Moon Rabbits, but it is stated both Ringo and Seiren have dango stands they run in the village and depicts them without disguises and everything seems just fine (source: Alternate Facts in Eastern Utopia).

PMiSS's Human Village Excerpt: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Human_Village

  • Inconsistent Info Pt.2
    • Another one I remember is it being stated (I believe in Symposium of Post-mysticism) that beings like Kanako are resistant against possessions from vengeful spirits, however in  Cheating Detective Satori, they claim that they are particularly weak against them. Cheating Detective Satori is kind of a dumpster fire in my opinion, like suggesting Mokou is a Youkai from when Mizuchi proclaims in Ch.16 Page 25: "...A Youkai cannot fight a vengeful spirit" then follows up on the next page: "because inside, you're all the same". It feels like the setting and characters are whatever ZUN needs them to be for the story he wants to tell.
      • Then that leads into my next gripe, the fandom excuses. Setting inconsistencies? "Unreliable narrator, of course." Characters acting strange? "Every Print Work is told through the lens of the focal character, so naturally there'd be differences." If everything is supposed to be unreliable, and there is no clear picture of what Gensokyo or its inhabitants are like, why should I care about literally anything? I know ZUN probably forgot a few things over the years, but when the fandom comes up with some profound and artistic reason for it, it comes off as fairly obnoxious to me.

 

  • The Music isn't as Great as Everyone Says it is
    • Probably more like a nuclear take, and I'll say Touhou music as a whole is generally good, but I see people make it out that every song is an amazing masterpiece. To me, there are a lot of forgettable filler tracks, but I know that's just due to my taste ("History of the Moon" and "Nostalgic Blood of the East" are the only IN songs I actually care for, as an example). There are amazing remixes of songs, but I don't count those when forming an opinion towards the original composition. Conversely, a lot of songs I like either get no attention, or lackluster remixes (I actually enjoy a lot of PC-98's compositions despite the painful sound quality). Bonus spicy take: I don't care much for Vocal Remixes or the super high-energy styles or metal, I prefer instrumental music like jazz, traditional, or classical styles.

 

  • Fanon
    • Headcanons are fine and all until they start getting pushed as fact, or just disrespect a character. To this day, the only fangame I've played that treats Meiling as remotely competent and self-respecting is Sengoku Gensokyo. Fanon can be a wonderful tool to expand on a character that get no attention, or piece together a wider narrative from the breadcrumbs left by ZUN, but nope, memes. I don't even hate memes, and I find some kind of funny, but after a while they lose their appeal and end up becoming the entire personality of a character. I know this isn't much of a hot take, but thought I'd add it.
      • Also some characters get literally nothing worthwhile. One of my favorite characters, Shou, is either reduced to "forgor Pagoda" or just grouped under the umbrella of "Myouren Temple members don't follow their own teachings" despite being the Avatar of Bishamonten, and disrespecting him would likely result in being smote (also the point of Nazrin is to keep tabs on her). It sucks too because she's a case of a Youkai effectively evolving into something more (she was destined to disappear because the fear of what tigers even were dwindled). Thanks Akyuu, the one time fans don't outright discredit everything you say is to support their dumb headcanons (Referring to her entry on Byakuren under "Countermeasures" in SoPM where the suggestion of being more afraid of her Youkai followers being twisted by fanon to mean every member).

 

  • Western Content Sort of Sucks
    • I'll mention fangames first, and specifically the lack of Western-made ones. There are tons of talented people on this side of the fandom, but I can never seem to find a complete game, or something that's not just a reskin of an existing game, but worse, with Touhou characters plastered over it with terrible writing. This isn't something exclusive to this side of the fandom, but I like to be able to read, and a lot of what I'd want to play isn't translated. I've run across many people who spout "Touhou is the fan content", so I start to expect a bit more out of this fandom compared to others.
    • I've mentioned this elsewhere, but the video content I've watched is really lackluster. Kind of hate the format where someone just reads off the Wiki, or gives a shallow rundown of an event/game they had no personal experience or attachment to. Suwawako's "The Touhoucon Failure" was interesting for the first-hand experience compared to something like "The Touhou Cannonball Failure" where it's just random other people's accounts of what happened (granted there were some rare good bits of info). The last one bugs me more as someone who played Cannonball when it was still alive (used a screen translator app which was a pain, but I got to experience the story at least).

 

  • The Pronunciation War
    • I don't care if it's pronounced "Chiruno", "Churro" , "Chernobyl" or whatever, I see "Cirno" and in my tongue I pronounce it "Sir-no". I see the name "Marisa" (a Western name mind you) and I go "Muh-riss-uh" compared to the fans I hear fake a Japanese accent just to say "Mari-sah" and return to their normal way of speaking. My pronunciation isn't correct, I know, but it irks me when people change accents randomly for one name. Discussions about it often devolve into getting on other people's cases about the right way to say it, which involves lengthy talks about language as a whole, blah blah.

 

  • Miscellaneous
    • Random thoughts I don't feel like going overly in-depth about:
      • PC-98 Stage Enemy variety and behavior are more interesting then a majority of Windows. Sure, in Windows they can shoot the pretty patterns, but what happened to enemies that interact with the Stages themselves?
      • MoF's Power-based Bombs (Spirit Attacks, whatever) are handled well, and SA made them crap since there is no "reserve" Power that doesn't affect your damage output.
      • ZUN, please cut back on using the Elementics DrumKit, everything post-HSiFS feels like it uses it, and static-y drums all the time are kind of painful. A lot of great tracks feel worse off because of it.
      • LostWord's combat system is actually pretty interesting with the Barrier system, but it sucks that it's in a gacha game, where every number is cosmically high and nebulous.
      • I hate the crazy inconsistent quality of mainline Touhou's gimmick systems. PCB's was simple and easy to understand, and DDC's encourages use of the Point of Collection. Granted, I do like some of the gimmick ideas in the latest games, so I guess this is more of a frustration towards older titles.
      • I miss when Point Tiles had more value, like collecting a certain number of them just gave you an Extra Life. On that note, why can these games never decide whether or not to always convert Power Tiles into other Tiles when at Full Power? Also don't like constantly moving down in decimal value in terms of Tile worth (0.1 -> 0.05 -> 0.01).
      • The original art style for Cheating Detective Satori was better, because at least there were characters that had alternate outfits. Also not a fan of the wacky over-the-top facial expressions in the current style, some of them look really stupid.
      • Moeblob and Grimsokyo are both equally annoying fanon extremes.

Interesting takes, there are some I absolutely agree with and others I really don't (particularly the one about music haha), but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to see that in a thread about hot takes. I think the most notable one I want to give my point of view on is the one about pronunciation. I personally care about pronouncing names the right way (partly because I am learning Japanese) and have actively changed the way I pronounce some names since I first found the series if I learn later that I haven't been pronouncing them right, but I don't mind other people pronouncing the same syllables with a different accent that sounds more natural to them. I also understand that although I don't get too irked by changing the way I pronounce a character's name, other people probably get attached to whatever their first impression was. However, I hate it when people pronounce a character's name with the wrong syllables entirely. "Sir-no" is criminal to me...

On 2/8/2023 at 12:04 AM, Eulogous said:

I see the name "Marisa" (a Western name mind you) and I go "Muh-riss-uh" compared to the fans I hear fake a Japanese accent just to say "Mari-sah" and return to their normal way of speaking.

As I said above I have absolutely no problem with anyone saying Marisa's name like this, but reading this did just make me feel the obligation to point that although it is intended to sound western, Marisa's name is written with kanji. Not an obscure fact I know, but I feel like I have to say it.

 

When I first saw this thread I was struggling to think what hot takes I have, since, well, I'd say most of my criticisms aren't hot takes, but now I've realised I absolutely do have a hot take, and I think it's a particularly spicy one too. I wish Touhou characters were depicted as more Asian. Sure the main material has that anime-inspired look to it, and I'm fine with that, it's probably best for the core franchise. But considering how much fan content Touhou has? I'm tired to see nearly everything look like generic anime, and everything that isn't in anime art style still use white skin for all the characters anyway. It makes sense why these anime-like styles crop up everywhere, seeing as it's what the official material does, but again, considering that it's an Asian series set in Asia with characters who are Asian all about Asian mythology - why do I never see Touhou characters that look Asian? I think not only would it be an interesting direction to explore and a novel way to see these characters who have looked like whitewashed dolls since forever, I also think that if you wanted to tell a more serious story with the Touhou project setting, it would make that depiction of the universe feel that much more grounded. And even if you didn't want to do that - I still think it would make things feel more genuine.

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7 hours ago, buskerdog said:

As I said above I have absolutely no problem with anyone saying Marisa's name like this, but reading this did just make me feel the obligation to point that although it is intended to sound western, Marisa's name is written with kanji. Not an obscure fact I know, but I feel like I have to say it.

I'll preface this by saying I'm an Asian with a Western name, so this sort of thing really just personally bugs me and probably only me in that regard. I've met people that try to pronounce my name the way it'd be said if they natively spoke Tagalog, and it always annoyed me. I tolerate it when my family says it that way, because I know that is how they'd pronounce it in their country. When someone twists their accent to say my name wrong, even if they are trying to respect my culture or whatever, it comes off as them trying to pander towards me or something.

This is very much a "me" thing, I know, and I already admitted to knowingly pronounce Marisa's name incorrectly. I'll correctly pronounce a character's name in the presence of a Japanese person, out of respect and for complete clarity of who I'm talking about, but I feel adding an accent on top is a bit overkill.

7 hours ago, buskerdog said:

I'm tired to see nearly everything look like generic anime, and everything that isn't in anime art style still use white skin for all the characters anyway. It makes sense why these anime-like styles crop up everywhere, seeing as it's what the official material does, but again, considering that it's an Asian series set in Asia with characters who are Asian all about Asian mythology - why do I never see Touhou characters that look Asian?

...What?

I sort of understand what you're getting at, but some of this doesn't sound worded that well.

Edited by Eulogous
Fixed some typos
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19 hours ago, Eulogous said:

...What?

I sort of understand what you're getting at, but some of this doesn't sound worded that well.

Admittedly not my clearest explanation, but I'll try breaking it down:

  • "look like generic anime" - just that, artwork of characters in most fanworks - whether it be games, music PVs, or just standalone art - is drawn in an almost paint-by-numbers replication of the anime or manga style (which I don't have a problem with, but it's very unoriginal).
  • "seeing as it's what the official material does" - manga style of artwork is (understandably) used in the Touhou manga, as well as in the fighting games; and ZUN art is clearly inspired by the anime look with characteristics like the large eyes and light skin (the resemblance is especially clear in PC-98 art imo).
  • "everything that isn't in anime style still use white skin for all the characters anyway" - fanart in a more painterly style or more realistically proportioned still makes the characters look like westerners.
  • "why do I never see Touhou characters that look Asian?" - skin tone, eye shape etc; look I'm not someone who combs through dozens of Touhou fanarts every day, but I have yet to see an image circulate past me where a Touhou character looks like a Japanese person.

By the way I didn't mean to challenge your point of view about name pronunciation at all, just express my own.

Edited by buskerdog
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5 hours ago, buskerdog said:
  • "why do I never see Touhou characters that look Asian?" - skin tone, eye shape etc; look I'm not someone who combs through dozens of Touhou fanarts every day, but I have yet to see an image circulate past me where a Touhou character looks like a Japanese person.

 

I've seen a character (Okuu) drawn more Asian-like. However, the eyes were more akin to a half-Asian half-Caucasian, and even then it's not consistent (since it's actually AI). The only two issues I have with this user is that 6 out of their 24 artworks are NSFW. The other thing is that it's not hand drawn, it's through NovelAI. Nonetheless, I was taken aback by the way the eyes were, since I've never seen it like that before.

 

WARNING!! This artist has mostly NSFW content. Be warned.

 

 

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9 hours ago, buskerdog said:

By the way I didn't mean to challenge your point of view about name pronunciation at all, just express my own.

Didn't take it as a challenge, just explaining why I came to the conclusion that I did with my take for clarity's sake. My reply might have come off as a bit aggressive, but I didn't intend to be.

9 hours ago, buskerdog said:

"why do I never see Touhou characters that look Asian?" - skin tone, eye shape etc; look I'm not someone who combs through dozens of Touhou fanarts every day, but I have yet to see an image circulate past me where a Touhou character looks like a Japanese person.

The most popular characters that get some of the highest fanart coverage tend to be from EoSD, with a cast that is European (SDM was transported from the Outside World) save for a Chinese gatekeeper. Fairies are nature spirits, so depicting them as any real race seems weird. The humanoid Youkai throughout the series we see have presumably chosen their form, so there's a case there. Human villagers and most humans in general would definitely be Japanese, though.

I'm not particularly very conscious of this sort of thing, since I treat Touhou as an escapism medium first and foremost. If I had to think of an interpretation I'd like to see, it'd be Letty looking more like a Yuki-Onna, with a more traditional style of attire, and the deathly snow-like complexion like in her inspiration. Not the biggest fan of her canon outfit, and I just want more things with Letty to exist. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I was supposed to answer this about a couple weeks ago. Hooo boy...

 

On 2/8/2023 at 2:04 AM, Eulogous said:
  • Inconsistent Info
    • I think the Human Village has it the worst in this regard. Are Youkai allowed to roam freely as long as they don't cause trouble? PMiSS suggests it's that way, but in a lot of other Print Works it feels like if a Youkai is even believed to be spotted, the entire village would be in uproar and moral panic ensues. Also, they may be Moon Rabbits, but it is stated both Ringo and Seiren have dango stands they run in the village and depicts them without disguises and everything seems just fine (source: Alternate Facts in Eastern Utopia).

PMiSS's Human Village Excerpt: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Human_Village

This is something I have noticed as well. ZUN seems to be alright when it comes to writing the plot for a game. However, when the scale gets greater and in a series spanning for many years, problems start occurring. Just like you pointed out, the Human Village is a very goo example of that. I would have also talked about the lack of a unified vision in the depiction of the characters due to a great variety of artists employed to draw the 2hus, each with their own unique style, but I think I have already mentioned that in the opening post of this thread. Also yeah, Seiran and Ringo seem to be like a sore thumb in that whole "youkai come to the Village undercover" thing. 

And now that you mentioned Perfect Memento, ZUN WHERE IS THE THIRD VOLUME OF THE GENSOKYO CHRONICLE? WE HAVEN'T HAD A NEW ONE SINCE SYMPOSIUM OF POST-MYSTICISM, 10 YEARS AGO!

 

On 2/8/2023 at 2:04 AM, Eulogous said:

Inconsistent Info Pt.2

  • Another one I remember is it being stated (I believe in Symposium of Post-mysticism) that beings like Kanako are resistant against possessions from vengeful spirits, however in  Cheating Detective Satori, they claim that they are particularly weak against them. Cheating Detective Satori is kind of a dumpster fire in my opinion, like suggesting Mokou is a Youkai from when Mizuchi proclaims in Ch.16 Page 25: "...A Youkai cannot fight a vengeful spirit" then follows up on the next page: "because inside, you're all the same". It feels like the setting and characters are whatever ZUN needs them to be for the story he wants to tell.
    • Then that leads into my next gripe, the fandom excuses. Setting inconsistencies? "Unreliable narrator, of course." Characters acting strange? "Every Print Work is told through the lens of the focal character, so naturally there'd be differences." If everything is supposed to be unreliable, and there is no clear picture of what Gensokyo or its inhabitants are like, why should I care about literally anything? I know ZUN probably forgot a few things over the years, but when the fandom comes up with some profound and artistic reason for it, it comes off as fairly obnoxious to me.

As far as I am aware, CDS/FDS is an extreme mess of a manga series. From the Mokou vs Mizuchi fight chapter, all I can remember is the fact Reddit went all over the fact that we basically got the first, on-screen canon depiction of a 2hu basically topless (as Mokou's shirt burnt off, and there is nothing to be spotted underneath it - also she looks to be flat). As for the fans creating much better explanations than the author himself, I really have no words. By now, does ZUN still really care about the series? I am glad he is still making games (therefore it means he still has some interest in Touhou), and I just hope things can only get better from where we are now for as long as it will last. 

 

On 2/8/2023 at 2:04 AM, Eulogous said:

The Music isn't as Great as Everyone Says it is

  • Probably more like a nuclear take, and I'll say Touhou music as a whole is generally good, but I see people make it out that every song is an amazing masterpiece. To me, there are a lot of forgettable filler tracks, but I know that's just due to my taste ("History of the Moon" and "Nostalgic Blood of the East" are the only IN songs I actually care for, as an example). There are amazing remixes of songs, but I don't count those when forming an opinion towards the original composition. Conversely, a lot of songs I like either get no attention, or lackluster remixes (I actually enjoy a lot of PC-98's compositions despite the painful sound quality). Bonus spicy take: I don't care much for Vocal Remixes or the super high-energy styles or metal, I prefer instrumental music like jazz, traditional, or classical styles.

I am not really an expert when it comes to the field of music, but there is just one thing I can say. A lot of songs are rather forgettable to be honest, or just do not stick to my mind. To me, Touhou 16's OST is mostly a blur to me (but to be fair, that game as a whole is mostly a blur for me). At the very best, all I can add here is my list of impressions when it comes to as many songs I could remember from the series. And even there, a lot of the contributions come mostly from fan-made arrangements that I associate with that song, rather than the original theme. 

Spoiler

Alright, time to write this answer. It sure will be interesting...

Short answer: I am not sure what to pick. I never did something like a tier list, and there are a lot I like.

Long answer: Oh boy, bear with me. Buckle up, since this will turn into one hell of a reply, typical for my writing style. Even I will get lost in it. To put it simply, there are quite a lot of songs I like. However, there are still just as many that I have not listened to yet. It's been over one a half years since I got into the fandom, yet there are still quite a lot of songs I need to check out. So instead, I will focus on the main games (and some of the extra materials), plus a bit from the spin-offs if I am familiar to it. I might also leave some notes on each of them, and gonna try keep it short (though most likely I will end up overextending)

 

PC-98 era

Oh, this era is quite muddy to me in terms of knowledge, and so is the knowledge of music. So I will just focus up on a few that I know a little better. There's like 3-4 of them, so this section will go more quickly. 

  • Reincarnation: so the theme for Mima...or at least one of them (how many more does she have through the games?); I have found this song through KARMANATIONS from Akatsuki Records, then I listened to the original. Quite a memorable song

 

  • Bad Apple: probably one of, if not the most famous Touhou song; like many people, I found it through the famous MV and and another metal arrangement from RichaadEB, then found the original song; surprisingly good, and for a while I was convinced I liked it even more than the remix

 

  • Romantic Children: this was the music theme that introduced Alice in Mystic Square, right? Again, a lovely song, worth listening to 

 

  • Judas Kiss: a bit of an odd choice, but I discovered this song through a video from Megapig9001. It sounds very good, and I can agree with him that that MIDI version might sound even better. 



Windows era

Alright, for this one, as I am more familiar with, I will go through each of the games, and add both stage and boss battle songs. If I am familiar with the song or want to say something about it, a note will appear next to the mention. I am tempted to write the names of the songs too, but in many cases I may not remember them, despite the song being familiar to me. Games like Touhou 6-7 have the most familiar songs to me, so I do not know how much to write on them, or what to say.


Touhou 6

  • stage 1 - quite decent; I like the beat for it, especially at the beginning; feels like a nice transition from PC-98 to a new era
  • stage 1 boss - another decent song; I guess it fits Rumia very well. a bit childish, but still threatening enough... for a stage 1 boss; I also like the brief orchestral version of it used in Memories of Phantasm for that very 20 seconds of screen time Rumia got in the EoSD arc
  • stage 2 - Lunate Elf is surprisingly good; not as memorable like other songs, but still good enough for a boss we never even got an official name for
  • stage 2 boss - Cirno, Cirno, Cirno... well, her song has so many remixes even within the official material, but it sounds cool; also something most likely I got to first through a meme (Cirno's Perfect Math Class)
  • stage 3 - I am always confusing this one with the actual boss battle theme
  • stage 3 boss - same as above; I still have a problem in distinguishing which was which between Shanghai Teahouse and Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17
  • stage 4 - I honestly keep forgetting this song exists (I am sorry, "Koakuma")
  • stage 4 boss - surprisingly good to vibe too
  • stage 5 - The Maid and the Pocket Watch of Blood, despite not as famous as the following song, is still quite good; plus, it inspired Bloody Devotion from Stack, so always a plus
  • stage 5 boss - ah, Lunar Dial; seems to be quite engaging for a stage 5 battle, and Stage 5 in general seems to have quite good songs (might be a pattern or something, together with bosses that somehow become memorable)
  • stage 6 - I think The Young Descendent of Țepeș is rather forgotten when compared to the other Remilia theme
  • stage 6 boss - I am no the greatest fan of the Septete for the Dead Princess, but I still like it, especially the piano opening
  • extra stage
  • extra stage boss - UN Owen Was Her? hmm... I used to be a fan of this one early on in my days as a fan, but that seems to have faded in time; I still have a bit until I get into the "this song is overrated" area, but I still think there are way better songs that deserve getting first place, especially after years on end this one has been first/second according to the popularity poll

 

 

Touhou 7 

  • intro song - man, I really love Snow or Cherry Petal; whenever I boot that song up, it feels like I am going back to a different age
  • stage 1 - quite a cute into the the new adventure
  • stage 1 boss - for a boss character everyone has forgotten about, Letty has quite a good battle theme
  • stage 2 - decent, good enough for a vibe
  • stage 2 boss - Chen SPEEEN! (oh wait, was that here or at the mid boss encounter with her?)
  • stage 3 - surprisingly, I might like the Doll Maker of București more than the actual theme; however, I have a question - out of any possible place on Earth, how did her song title come to reference the capital of Romania? Does Alice have an unknown connection to my lands, or not ZUN knows why he picked it? And to make it even funnier, the name is not written in English (Bucharest), but the actual Romanian spelling 
  • stage 3 boss - Doll Judgment is another good song; I have first found it through Marisa Stole the Precious Thing
  • stage 4 - it took me quite a while to associate this song with Lily White; however, after listening to it in Lost Word as the theme for our favorite herald of spring, I got a new appreciation for it
  • stage 4 boss - Phantom Ensemble is good; I am not sure what to write about it, but I like the song... ZUNpets, I guess?
  • stage 5 - Ancient Temple... I really like the kind of eerie atmosphere it creates as you get at the stairs of Netherworld; again, a very good setup for what is to come
  • stage 5 boss - Hiroari Shoots a Strange Bird/Till When? - this title is a bit of a mouthful, and apparently people do not like it so much? to me, it still holds a special place as I really tend to associate this song with Youmu, and I think the Junjo Arumeria arrangement only cemented that even further
  • stage 6 - another song I really like; there's something interesting about the buildup it creates towards the final boss encounter
  • stage 6 boss - probably I really do not remember this song as well as the following one
  • stage 6 boss (2) - wait, Yuyuko revives? this is awesome, but also quite a bit of a dangerous moment if you are a new played and that caught you unaware... oh wait, I mean I like Border of Life
  • extra stage - at how much stuff there after Stage 6? This will really be confusing, and I forgot a lot despite listening multiple times to the full OST for this game
  • extra stage boss - hmm, interesting how similar Ran's theme sounds to something that will come soon after...
  • Phantasm stage - so, this is a remix of Charming Domination, right? 
  • Phantasm stage boss - yay, Necrofantasia

 

 

Touhou 8

  • stage 1 
  • stage 1 boss - this is the Wriggle battle song, right? I forgot how this sounds like
  • stage 2
  • stage 2 boss - Mystia's theme; had it not been for Shout It Out Loud, most likely I would not have listened to this song
  • stage 3
  • stage 3 boss - Plain Asia; honestly, another song I know thanks to Akatsuki Records and Gray Zone; otherwise, I really like the name of the song
  • stage 4
  • stage 4 boss - wait, do we even have a Stage 4? Tewi is at Stage 5, so moving on...
  • stage 5 - Cindarella Cage is a song that sounds quite good; however, I cannot think of it and not imagine the "Tewi Kick" ZUN fell for in one of the demo clips for the game
  • stage 5 boss - ah, Reisen. I can remember you, your theme, but not the name for it... was it Lunatic Eyes or something" still, nice song
  • stage 6
  • stage 6 boss (Kaguya) - good song, and base for "Help me, ERIN!"
  • stage 6 boss (Eirin) - wait, you have 2 themes? both History of the Moon and Voyage 1970; honestly, two relaxing song to listen to in a summer nigh with clear sky
  • extra stage
  • extra stage boss - I like Reach for the Moon, Immortal Smoke; enough said

 

 

Touhou 9

  • Flower Land - I have found this song much later than the character it is associated with; nice theme for Yuuka though
  • Wind God Girl - good song, fitting for Aya
  • Higan Retour - quite a good Stage 5 song
  • Fate of Sixty Years - impressive song, very fitting to someone having the status of Eiki Shiki, Yamaxanadu
     

Oh God, I only got to the 10th game. There is still more to go, and will more than likely take me hours to write...
 

 

Touhou 10

  • stage 1
  • stage 1 boss - good song, nothing more to say
  • stage 2 
  • stage 2 boss
  • stage 3
  • stage 3 boss
  • stage 4
  • stage 4 boss - Mysterious Mountain... so this is the new theme Aya gets; I am still more used to Wind God Girl
  • stage 5 - recent discovery (thank you fr00sk); I really love the chorus part, especially the ZUNpets chorus part; in short, "I like Touhou 10 Stage 5's theme"
  • stage 5 boss - not bad, I just don't listen to it so much
  • stage 6
  • stage 6 boss - nice theme you got there, Kanako
  • extra stage

extra stage boss - Native Faith has to be one of the first Touhou songs I have discovered (thank you. Kaliningrad General); also Kero ⑨ Destiny

 

 

Touhou 11

  • stage 1
  • stage 1 boss
  • stage 2
  • stage 2 boss - this is the one Parsee theme I can remember; in short, there is something I like about Green Eyed Jealousy 
  • stage 3
  • stage 3 boss 
  • stage 4 
  • stage 4 boss - Satori's theme is one of those songs that create some sort eerie feeling, but I still like it nonetheless
  • stage 5 - I tended to confuse Lullaby of Deserted Hell for the actual theme of Orin; still probably one of my favorite song from SA, especially with some of the arrangements made for it
  • stage 5 boss - Corpse Voyage/Be of Good Joy! - probably the most recent discovery for me; I like how cheerful it sounds
  • stage 6 - threatening, good buildup for what you are going to meet down there...
  • stage 6 boss - Nuclear Fusion is a song I tend to forget every now and then, then I come back and like it again
  • extra stage - Last Remote; I finally remembered its name, and I like its remix from House Set of Subterranean Animism
  • extra stage boss - this song more often makes me think of Unconscious Requiem; for another song that always managed to score so high in the popularity poll, I did not manage to get the hype for it (same story about Koishi)

 


Touhou 12

  • stage 1
  • stage 1 boss - what was the theme for Nazrin? I think it was called A Tiny Clever Commander or something, but I forgot how it sounds like
  • stage 2
  • stage 2 boss - Kogasa's theme; very cute, rather cheery, and fits her character very well
  • stage 3
  • stage 3 boss
  • stage 4 - I think this is the song I actually managed to remember ans associate with Murasa instead of her actual theme
  • stage 4 boss
  • stage 5
  • stage 5 boss - CURVY LASERS; also a song that feels a bit on the repeating side
  • stage 6 
  • stage 6 boss - first time I found Byakuren's theme through the remix from House Set of UFO; from then on, that song stuck to my mind
  • extra stage 
  • extra stage boss

 

 

Touhou 13

  • stage 1
  • stage 1 boss - all I know about this stage is that Yuyuko somehow became a Stage 1 boss (#NeverForget); I don;t know what song she has though
  • stage 2
  • stage 2 boss
  • stage 3 - Kogasa makes her return as a mid boss; did she retain the same song?
  • stage 3 boss
  • stage 4 - I like Rigid Paradise; I am quite confused about the Seiga and Yoshika part of the game - where did Desire Drive come in?
  • stage 4 boss - very much forgot how Old Yuanxian sounds like
  • stage 5
  • stage 5 boss
  • stage 6 
  • stage 6 boss - I am struggling to remember how True Administrator sounds like, but I forgot...
  • extra stage 
  • extra stage boss

 

 

Touhou 14

  • stage 1
  • stage 1 boss
  • stage 2
  • stage 2 boss
  • stage 3
  • stage 3 boss
  • stage 4 
  • stage 4 boss
  • stage 5
  • stage 5 boss - Reverse Ideology, probably one of the few songs I can remember from Touhou 14
  • stage 6 
  • stage 6 boss - probably the same thing as with Seija and her theme; there's a segment out of it I like a lot
  • extra stage 
  • extra stage boss - Raiko's theme is probably my favorite from the song; it has a lot of energy in it, very fitting to her

 

 

Touhou 15

  • stage 1
  • stage 1 boss
  • stage 2
  • stage 2 boss
  • stage 3
  • stage 3 boss
  • stage 4 
  • stage 4 boss
  • stage 5
  • stage 5 boss - Clownpiece, can you please stop throwing moons at people? That has to be the reason everyone goes lunatic at the sight of America-chan this hell fairy
  • stage 6 - a charming, almost quiet version of the storm that will soon unleash upon you; I like this song, and I think it creates a interesting sensation just before going against a creature of pure fury 
  • stage 6 boss -  this is where the storm starts; Junko is angry, and her theme reflects it perfectly
  • extra stage - I forgot the name of this one, but I like it
  • extra stage boss - I am quite surprised to have forgotten then name and the way Hecatia's theme sounds like

 

 

Touhou 16

  • stage 1
  • stage 1 boss
  • stage 2
  • stage 2 boss
  • stage 3
  • stage 3 boss - had it not been for some English vocals from Lyrica Live, I do not think I would have got to listen to Aunn's theme very soon
  • stage 4 
  • stage 4 boss
  • stage 5
  • stage 5 boss - it is the CRAZY BACKDROP DANCERS! quite an annoying stage, but I like that song they have; plus that it was turned into something more cheerful by Stack (Mai and Satono really look like cheerleaders at the beginning of their PV from Akatsuki Records)
  • stage 6 
  • stage 6 boss - I forgot what are the songs for Okina
  • extra stage 
  • extra stage boss

 

 

Touhou 17

  • stage 1
  • stage 1 boss - I did get to listen to the stage boss themes recently thanks to rewatching fr00sk and Touhou 17 in a nutshell; however, I am not much better with some of the songs in terms of how well I know them
  • stage 2
  • stage 2 boss
  • stage 3
  • stage 3 boss
  • stage 4 
  • stage 4 boss
  • stage 5 - Beast Metropolis; the one song I found first in a PC-98 style remix; otherise, another good song
  • stage 5 boss - haniwaa' susume! GO! ; oh sorry, I got carried away again by HANIPAGANDA
  • stage 6 
  • stage 6 boss - again, I think I have first listened to The Creator and Idola Deus before getting into the actual theme; however, as I got into the original song as well, I did not regret it any moment  
  • extra stage 
  • extra stage boss

 

 

Touhou 18

  • stage 1
  • stage 1 boss - "this is Michael"; besides that, I think this is a nice beginning for the game
  • stage 2
  • stage 2 boss - honestly one of the characters, besides the one on 4, that I tend to very much ignore when it comes to the UM cast; "Banditry technology" or whatever the name of the song was does not tell a lot to me
  • stage 3
  • stage 3 boss - Smoking Dragon; now this was the theme I really thought to be the best when the demo came out; a real banger back then, barely listened to recently though 
  • stage 4 
  • stage 4 boss - I have absolutely no idea what song Misumaru has at all; in front of all Misumaru fans I am sorry 
  • stage 5 
  • stage 5 boss - Starry Mountain of Tenma; aka Coooonsultant!
  • stage 6 
  • stage 6 boss - Where Is That Bustling Marketplace Now ~ Immemorial Marketeers; despite what people generally say about this theme, I actually like it; besides, Infinite Gradation is an absolutely welcome addition to the world of fan arrangements
  • extra stage 
  • extra stage boss - The Princess Who Slays Dragon Kings; not to much to say about this one besides it sounds good + DIG IT DIG OUT!

 

 

Scarlet Weather Rhapsody

  • Crimson in the Black Sea/Legendary Fish - I like this song
     

 

Antimony of Common Flowers

  • that Yukari theme - I guess now we have hardbass in Touhou 
  • Tonight Stars an Easygoing Egoist - I really like how that song even is called (live ver.)l does that imply the song is being played live in stage? After all, the battle does seem to take place in the stage where the Prismriver sisters + Raiko are having a concert

 

 

Changeability of Strange Dream

  • Dream of Arcadia - feels me with some sort of nostalgia
  • Voyage 1969
  • Boys and Girls of the Age of Science
  • Border Between Dreams and Reality - this one, and the one above, are the two songs I could recognize in Black Mirror on the Wall
  • Fantasy Machine ~ Phantom Factory - idk why, but I guess this one gives me some sort of Seihou vibes with how it sounds, the mechanical aspect and all

I have written this all the way back in June last year, when the Top 10 Original Touhou Tracks thread was going.

 

On 2/8/2023 at 2:04 AM, Eulogous said:

Fanon

  • Headcanons are fine and all until they start getting pushed as fact, or just disrespect a character. To this day, the only fangame I've played that treats Meiling as remotely competent and self-respecting is Sengoku Gensokyo. Fanon can be a wonderful tool to expand on a character that get no attention, or piece together a wider narrative from the breadcrumbs left by ZUN, but nope, memes. I don't even hate memes, and I find some kind of funny, but after a while they lose their appeal and end up becoming the entire personality of a character. I know this isn't much of a hot take, but thought I'd add it.
    • Also some characters get literally nothing worthwhile. One of my favorite characters, Shou, is either reduced to "forgor Pagoda" or just grouped under the umbrella of "Myouren Temple members don't follow their own teachings" despite being the Avatar of Bishamonten, and disrespecting him would likely result in being smote (also the point of Nazrin is to keep tabs on her). It sucks too because she's a case of a Youkai effectively evolving into something more (she was destined to disappear because the fear of what tigers even were dwindled). Thanks Akyuu, the one time fans don't outright discredit everything you say is to support their dumb headcanons (Referring to her entry on Byakuren under "Countermeasures" in SoPM where the suggestion of being more afraid of her Youkai followers being twisted by fanon to mean every member).

I have written quite a bit on the topic in the past, so I will not repeat myself. Instead, I will just redirect talk towards the following threads:

Yeah, it looks like I talked about it quite extensively last year...

 

On 2/8/2023 at 2:04 AM, Eulogous said:

Western Content Sort of Sucks

  • I'll mention fangames first, and specifically the lack of Western-made ones. There are tons of talented people on this side of the fandom, but I can never seem to find a complete game, or something that's not just a reskin of an existing game, but worse, with Touhou characters plastered over it with terrible writing. This isn't something exclusive to this side of the fandom, but I like to be able to read, and a lot of what I'd want to play isn't translated. I've run across many people who spout "Touhou is the fan content", so I start to expect a bit more out of this fandom compared to others.
  • I've mentioned this elsewhere, but the video content I've watched is really lackluster. Kind of hate the format where someone just reads off the Wiki, or gives a shallow rundown of an event/game they had no personal experience or attachment to. Suwawako's "The Touhoucon Failure" was interesting for the first-hand experience compared to something like "The Touhou Cannonball Failure" where it's just random other people's accounts of what happened (granted there were some rare good bits of info). The last one bugs me more as someone who played Cannonball when it was still alive (used a screen translator app which was a pain, but I got to experience the story at least).

You actually caught my attention at the Suwawako part. His content is... alright at least. Probably one of the more enjoyable channels to watch that rose last year (even if my favorite still is GensouChronicle). As for his videos, I am still surprised I made a cameo in the Touhou Drama video. Or better said one of my comments from the DMCA era in regards to the Twitter vs Touhou Wiki event. Of course he had to read my comment on the voice of a stereotypical, greasy basement-dweling neckbeard out of everything...

The paragraph Suwawako featured was the following one:

image.png

Oh, how naive I was back then...

 

On 2/8/2023 at 2:04 AM, Eulogous said:

LostWord's combat system is actually pretty interesting with the Barrier system, but it sucks that it's in a gacha game, where every number is cosmically high and nebulous.

Same. I feel like the gacha tag has been what made that game get such a bad wrap. How would you have done the game so that you could still have it reach a high audience, lack the predatory tactics of gacha, yet still be a commercial success? I feel like that is a very hard task, to which I really do not have a god answer. 

 

On 2/8/2023 at 2:04 AM, Eulogous said:

Moeblob and Grimsokyo are both equally annoying fanon extremes.

I am aware of the "Grimsokyo" interpretation, but what exactly do you define as moeblob? Or what sor of fan works/fanart would you count into that category?

 

On 2/10/2023 at 4:24 PM, buskerdog said:

"look like generic anime" - just that, artwork of characters in most fanworks - whether it be games, music PVs, or just standalone art - is drawn in an almost paint-by-numbers replication of the anime or manga style (which I don't have a problem with, but it's very unoriginal).

I am not very sure what to add here, especially since you have pointed it out much better than I could, and also in a much sorter way. 

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4 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:

I am aware of the "Grimsokyo" interpretation, but what exactly do you define as moeblob? Or what sor of fan works/fanart would you count into that category?

It's more when characters sort of get "defanged", or potential negative aspects get ignored, like Aya and Momiji being really good friends when they hate each other. I am biased more towards nicer and cuter things over making things grimdark, but both either ramp a trait up to the extreme, or just make stuff up.

5 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:

How would you have done the game so that you could still have it reach a high audience, lack the predatory tactics of gacha, yet still be a commercial success?

The Barrier system sort of reminds me of Shin Megami Tensei with hitting weaknesses giving you an advantage beyond just damage. I actually love the idea of having to choose between status ailments or breaking Barriers for more damage. You could stack the turn economy SMT has going on with the in-depth Barrier system and get a really tense, strategic RPG.

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7 hours ago, Eulogous said:

The Barrier system sort of reminds me of Shin Megami Tensei with hitting weaknesses giving you an advantage beyond just damage. I actually love the idea of having to choose between status ailments or breaking Barriers for more damage. You could stack the turn economy SMT has going on with the in-depth Barrier system and get a really tense, strategic RPG.

Actually, you have just given me the idea for a new thread. As it looks like my original discussion about LW seems to be mostly dead, perhaps something new could take its place. Something fresh, and constructive in its nature...

 

7 hours ago, Eulogous said:

It's more when characters sort of get "defanged", or potential negative aspects get ignored, like Aya and Momiji being really good friends when they hate each other. I am biased more towards nicer and cuter things over making things grimdark, but both either ramp a trait up to the extreme, or just make stuff up.

On this kind of line, I have the feeling you you also don't have too high of an opinion about artist like Fusu? (don't worry, I don't think too high of him either...). You know, with turning the 2hus into generic anime girls confessing their love for you, the self-insert from whose point of view those images are built (and don't get me started on all the porn of these characters that just confessed he is drawing, still in point-of-view perspective, just that riding you or doing funny things to your manly parts)

Example (of the former, of course):

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rmyip4tsylu71.jpg

86zsef3ljho71.png

(I had to go through this so you don't have to)

 

I just can't help but bring again and again the following image whenever whenever Fusu is mentioned. I think it was probably one of the best reactions from the "counter-revolution" of r/touhou in November 2021 against anything regarding both Fusu translations and those who made fun of them (everyone was just sick of what was going on, and wanted the thing to end - both the suger-coated translations of out-of-character 2hus and the parodies hat started clogging the forum). More about the author, I have talked in some previous threads, including the "Horny Touhou" trilogy and the "Return of Fusu-posting"

unknown.png

Yeah, pretty much...

Quote

"1) The art itself is degrading, and takes, shall we say, great liberties with the 2hus' characterizations for the sole purpose of titillating the viewer. It's neckbeard-bait, plain and simple. And Touhou as I like it is the antithesis of neckbeard-bait.
2) Someone was spamming it virtually nonstop at one point on this sub. And whether due to the initial novelty of the thing, the horniness of the average redditor, or bots, those posts got lots of upvotes and shot to the top of Hot more often than not. Even people who initially didn't mind it eventually got sick of it."

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