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Why the general hate for anime/modern Japanese pop art & culture? - Part II


CountVonNumenor

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"i got this new anime plot. basically there’s this high school girl except she’s got huge boobs. i mean some serious honkers. a real set of badonkers. packin some dobonhonkeros. massive dohoonkabhankoloos. big ol’ tonhongerekoogers. what happens next?! transfer student shows up with even bigger bonkhonagahoogs. humongous hungolomghononoloughongous" ~ from the famous "New Anime Plot" copypasta (oldest recorded in 2016 via Tumblr)

 

 

DISCLAIMER: let's keep this civil, like we always managed to. If there is anyone not wishing to be part of this, I will try return as soon as I can with a more digestible thread, or just someone can enjoy. 

 

Originally,  was planning to write about something completely different today. However, just as I was ending my courses, I received the following message on a Discord group I am part of:

Quote

"Jeez not a surprise that so many dudes who worked on animes that sexualized highschool girls turned out to try and touch kids or end up having cp"  

Since I am too curious for my own good, I went there and checked a little bit what people were talking about. And I really was not disappointed. So after I finished, then had a good nap to process everything, I have decided to finally put things together in a single thread. The video is mostly about mangaka artists who have been caught and convicted for having... inappropriate behavior towards minors (and somehow still managing to make a comeback into the industry after a light sentence), but the comment section actually evolved past that point and had a long discussion about anime and how some people perceive anime as a piece of media. 

Someone made a relevant list for the topics covered in this video:

  • 0:00 Intro
  • 2:32 Nobuhiro Watsuki
  • 8:12 Mitsubishi Shimabukuro
  • 13:39 Tsutaya Matsumoto
  • 20:10 Kenya Suzumi
  • 25:53 Hidikazu Tanaka
  • 29:13 John Leigh 
  • 37:41 Outro

 

Which really ties well into the topic of the original thread. It also fits quite a little bit with another thread I cam up with. I have also written quite a little bit about Touhou fans being horny (probably the spiciest discussion I ended up generating last year), generally bein me trying to understand why there are so many people who love drawing images with strong sexual content (especially when it comes to age groups that should not be depicted as such). There was not really any conclusion besides me having no power in this topic besides just not watching it, so I think the subject still remains open to debate. 

Normally, I am quite far from what people would call a "social justice warrior". Heck, some of my opinions might actually not be too politically correct, and so I try to keep them for myself. But at some point, I do have my own limits as well. And when there is something I consider worth talking about, I really want to address it (despite probably being like the Speaker #1,000,000 who wants to do that).

But let's just get to what I was looking to put together here. We were talking of why there seems to be a hate, or at least poor reputation towards Japan and the modern media coming from Japan. Recently, @_.Mevs also talked about some of the possible negative effects of exposure to anime. I have tried to compile some of the more interesting comments and chains generated by it, and pick content relevant to the issues tackled in the original thread. This time, since there are so many users, I would probably lose count quickly of which user is who:
 

Sample A: it seems like we are already starting with a strong topic... And from there

Spoiler

"ClockwiseLeon:

13 being the age of consent in Japan is actually an extremely popular misconception, often backed by weebs and the like. Most parts of Japan actually have it around 18, but 13 is the very minimum that it can be possibly set in a prefecture. Even then, I don't really think there's any big areas in Japan that have that. Maybe like a couple tiny areas in the country at most. Its easy to get confused though given a lot of creeps and weirdos in anime communities like to use "age of consent is 13 in japan" to excuse creepy behaviors, laws, or loli content"

 

"Mizuhana Oshibe
Very untrue. The 13 myth is perpetuated by people outside the community as a way to attack the community and try to paint lolisho content as some kind of creation from a pedo filled country rather then a completely normal kind of content that we have just as much, if not more of in the west, we simply try to paint it as something else"

 

"Qayo
Man the term loli has so many damn meanings at this fucking point its hard to tell which someone is referring to."

 

"MightyJabroni
Thanks for clearing that up. Makes it all the more shocking that many of these artists got away with basically a slap on the wrist."

 

"ClockwiseLeon
 @Mizuhana Oshibe  I've argued with lolicons who genuinely believe it as an actual excuse. I am not sure of what to tell you when there's actual people in the community that believe it. Im sure there's a lot of people outside of the community who share the misconception around but I have still absolutely heard it from within the communities too."

 

"J. K.
The biggest issue is that the Japanese government even allows the minimum to be that low in the first place. It should be 18, and you can't make it lower legally."

 

"ClockwiseLeon
 @J. K.  I don't know the specifics but allegedly some Japanese resident had said that its moreso 13 being the minimum for anyone below 18 having sex (unless someone had consent from a minor's guardian, which that's a problem within itself). Take that with a grain of salt though because I can't really confirm it due to my limited knowledge on the laws of the country. All I know is that just saying its strictly 13 is a misconception and in very few areas of the country at most. Regardless yeah I agree that no place should be at an extremely low minimum for age of consent"

 

"Solarion
@Qayo  It mostly gets muddled because people try to use it in ways it’s not meant for. But basically “loli” has nothing to do with age, it’s a body type. Loli is also not inherently a sexual thing. It just defines a female with a young or petite appearance."

 

"Dubious Degenerate (legit this is the name)
@ClockwiseLeon  I'm not too knowledgeable about Japanese laws either, but I think 13 year-olds can only consent to people around their age. So, it would still be illegal for adults to have sexual relations with minors."

 

"Alexander Johnson
@Solarion  I find it ironic that that’s the new defense for Lolis “it’s just a personal preference it’s not even sexual!” My dear friend are you aware what that body type is most comparable to in our world? Because it’s sure as hell isn’t petite adult girls that’s for sure."

 

"Andrew Acácia
@dementia gaming  morally correct is a term that a lot of people like to throw around, but morality only matters if it coincides with the law, and where did i get this information? I got it by being born in a country where the age of consent is lower than 18, and yet we aren't a degenerate land, most countries in Europe have the age of consent at 16 and I think that's perfectly fine."

 

"Solarion
@Alexander Johnson  Uh… I wasn’t defending anything? I was just explaining the definition. Besides there are petite animated women that they classify as a loli. Rebecca from Cyberpunk is the most recent example that comes to mind."

 

"Alexander Johnson
@Solarion  oh apologies I misunderstood your comment there my bad I got you confused with a different person in this thread that was defending the trash."

 

"Equal Rights Lefts & Uppercuts.
@J. K.  I hope you realize that the USA is among those countries right? Its 16 in many states. If you're American, shut it. If you're not, then you don't really have any place to talk about it either unless you actively have any power to change the rules."

 

"Nicholas Paul
Absolutely correct. Also, the 13 being the age of consent is only valid if the parent consents to it but no parent would allow it. Most of Japan's consent age is 18 anyways"

 

"ElSeggs
@J. K.  Since you're by all likelihood a clueless american let me fill you in:  The minimum age in a lot of countries might officially be 14, but it comes with the caveat of only being able to do it with someone around your age until you're 18. So a 30 year old is still gonna be arrested for touching a 15 year old."

 

"Roy Kong
People often confuse legal age of consent, and interpret it as ok for a 60 man to be with a 13 year old girl. Like in most countries this only applies of BOTH PARTNERS are underage 13. It is absolutely illegal, and seeing as Japan has an unfairly high rate of conviction, should you be arrested for sleeping with minors, expect to be jailed. Just people being delusional, and forgetting that Japan is a country, not a product."

 

"SN
But pedophilia is a huge problem in Japan. High school age girls r openly lusted after by men of all ages especially the old ones and it’s only seen as a little weird. That’s why the prison sentences when they’re caught are a joke. That dude that got a slap on the wrist had actually a ton of distributed cp. In America there’s a sentence for each item I have and each item u distribute."

 

Sample B: from Japan to the Shadman (surprisingly)

Spoiler

mooneo
“There is nothing wrong with lolicon, there are no adverse effects of it, it’s just drawing” 
Meanwhile in Japan:  has billboards with children being openly sexualized, dedicated districts to school girls being payed to “hang out with” or “give company” to middle aged men, when caught with ACTUAL cp, all is done is a slap on a wrist

 

"Makkers
japan is truly the country of the future"

 

"Kat Tsun
 @King Rolly Polly VII  Production of child porn in Japan is illegal, same as America, and carries harsher penalties anyway. The only difference is that Japanese punish people for child porn, not child porn and harmless drawings, lol. Then again given Shadman exists I don't think the US punishes anyone for that either."

 

"K Dash
@Kat Tsun  Shadman is European."

 

"DiceZ
@Kat Tsun  Shadman did draw depictions of REAL children though, and that is not only illegal, but objectively immoral." 

 

"Kat Tsun
@K Dash  What a bizarre statement considering he's current resident in a Los Angeles County Jail, has lived in Los Angeles for the last 10 years, and hasn't stepped foot in Switzerland due to outstanding charges relating to his drawings lol. Shaddai Prejean has been living in exile in the United States, which is about as tolerant as Japan when it comes to lolicon art, which is the main way he made his money to feed his heroin addiction. The arrest is only because he stabbed his dealer lol."

 

"DiceZ
@Phos Spatharios  Crime rates in japan are highly inaccurate due to under reporting and court cherry picking. Unfortunately these statistics mean nothing, though it wouldn't surprise me if the rates are still lower, even if a lot less than it seems now. We have a lot more people in the west acting all high and mighty about fictional depictions equating the real stuff, and they often are the ones who get caught in 4K having a history of grooming or worse."

 

"K Dash
@Kat Tsun  No it isn't, the first amendment covering for his body of work doesn't excuse the fact that he is from Switzerland nor is it bizarre. He literally stated himself he got in trouble in artschool in his country because of the types of drawings he was making, meaning he started to act that way long before moving to the US. As much as you and I may not like it, he wasn't caught with actual CP, but actual drugs. Your statement is still wrong and idiotic considering how the alphabet boys like to use CP and age of consent laws to go after their political rivals, which wouldn't work if it was permissible to do in the US."

 

Sample C:

"I stepped out of watching/buying Anime in 2012. It simply was infested with degenerates and it has only gotten worse. Hell, I tried to play the new Ace Attorney, and they have an 8 YEAR OLD living with an ADULT. The ENTIRE DIALOGUE with her and her "roommate" gave off the vibe that it was pandering towards Degenerates. Playing any game for me that has any anime vibe or look to it, always make me wonder when I have to throw the game away or bleach my eyes."

 

Sample D:

"The loli degenerates and the super horny part of the anime community is what has made me be on the quieter side with my love for anime. I think it's very important as you kinda mentioned to make note that the degenerate and loli losers only make up a small portion of the anime community. Sadly they are very vocal a lot of the time so it makes them seem far greater than they are. I love anime, I have figures of my favorite characters and other trinkets and stuff. I just like to watch, laugh/cry/get excited depending on the genre and get invested in the characters and the show's world just like I would while playing a video game and then talk about it with friends/people I know on discord."

 

Sample E: the WHAT?

"It seems like most of this video is “who would ever guess that the creator of Loli Harem Steampunk Battleship series was a pervert?”

 

Sample F: how did we get here?

"The sheer sexual repression Japan experienced and still experiences to this day, is a perfect breeding ground for these..."deviations". It's kind of absurd and terrifying how their desire of sexual freedom led to some of them basically going unhinged and depraved much easier than other countries."

 

Sample G:

"Back in November or something, my friend was mentioning how he was excited for the new Roruni Kenshin anime that was announced. He also mentioned the whole stuff involving the mangaka. We're both weebs, and I'm not one to be that guy to point out the moral dilemma, but my friend is the type that has time and time again been the one to not "morally grandstand" but take the morality laced route especially with comedy and jokes. So I decided to bring up the fact that while it's fine to enjoy these works after the fact and maybe through less 'legal' means. Maybe watching/paying for a criminal's new work with his name being plastered on it, isn't the best ethical/moral take. It was humorous to see him be wishy-washy with it because I was giving him an out. He could still enjoy the manga since obviously the mangaka isn't profiting off of it with the way he was going to read it. He refused, of course I was messing with him as a joke but he refused to admit. It eventually just devolved in me messing with him by constantly saying that he was defending a known [redacted] and that's where his morals end. It's sad and chuckling inducing that my friend can take issue with certain jokes but would willingly read and potentially support a criminal's acts."

 

Sample H: it's complicated, I think...

"I feel like the main problems with anime are also things that are often problems with Japanese society as well, such as higher tolerance of pedophilia compared to most other countries. Unfortunately a lot of people defend that less savory aspects of anime and Japanese culture."

 

Sample I: even some Japanese themselves seem to be concerned with what is going on...

"I'm Japanese, and i spent middle school and first year of high school in japan. i had a lot of friends (we were all 'gyaru') and a lot of my childhood is thinking that pedophilia, r4pe and other stuff like that was normal in pornography and normal anime and manga. me and my friends used to think that, old men looking at us, licking their lips, when we walk by them on the street, was normal. just a bit weird. Japan has a very serious and big issue with romanticizing r4pe, pedophilia, minors (especially high schoolers, specifically high school girls, and so much more and its considered normal to have these sorts of things in Japanese media (games, manga, anime, tv shows, etc) (btw i censored "r4pe" cus YouTube usually takes down comments with that word :/)"

 

Sample J: the moment when you cannot tell other people what you like due to the associations with negative cases

"Sometimes I’m embarrassed to tell my peers that I’m into anime because I feel as if I would be lumped into the weirdos. The people who have a body pillow of a nude character, people who watch anime instead of showering at least once every other day, and people who go out into the middle of the road cosplaying (which I’m kinda split on) and singing openings in public. I am afraid that I will be lumped into that group as opposed to what I actually do, watch a maximum of 4-5 episodes per day, just having it as a hobby, like watching YouTube. The reason I have it as my profile picture on here is because everybody is anonymous - none of my friends, classmates, teammates, etc, - so nobody will recognize me. I think anime is cool, some have great story telling (for example, One Piece), and it keeps me really intrigued about what will happen next. Of course, I do my homework, shower, eat, and do other things before watching it and I usually watch it at night before I go to sleep. It sucks because when people ask me about my favorite movies, I always say, “probably A Silent Voice or Howl’s Moving Castle,” and I nearly always get weird looks and one time, somebody told me, “you fricken weeb,” (the actual curse word, I just don’t like cursing because I’m fairly young - under thirteen - and I don’t think I should) and it was pretty upsetting. I can’t tell people about my interests without getting weird looks, treated differently, or getting lumped in with the group I mentioned earlier. Kinda sucks TL;DR: I get embarrassed telling people I enjoy watching anime which is kind of upsetting."

 

And just to end this thread...

At one point, I was complaining about the anime art style being used so much for less than appropriate content. And it is not just among big name artists of the industry, but the small fan-artist as well. 

I have talked enough about percentages in terms of adult content, now it is time to actually show some evidence. I have been using Danbooru for over a year now t find new Touhou art on a daily basis. It is not the most filtered website, but in a way, the risks are worth it since there is more art on that website than other alternatives, with lots of daily updates. However, when you look at what some people draw, it becomes extremely questionable. Where am I going with this? I guess just rethreading my distaste for child-like characters used for lewd or porn situations. But just for a brief idea how that website works, I am going to posts screenshots of how the first 5 pages of the "General Room" as it looks at the time of taking said screenshots (this thing updates way too quickly, so I had some problems of keeping track with what was posted, as when I was coming back from next screenshot, Page 1 already became page 2). Everything inappropriate will be censured for the sake of decency:

image.png

image.png

image.png

image.png

image.png

Normally, as I am censoring a lot of stuff, here comes the question: "Does art have limits? Should we impose any limits to art, or are we just removing our right to free expression?" IN the past, Danbooru members have said about their own website that "we are an art repository, not a place where to talk our opinions about art". Yeah, good thing your "art repository" has decided to keep all the rape, all the guro, all the incest, all the child porn, all the fetishes, the bestiality, all the unnatural and disgusting proportions, all the repetitive coomer bait, but THAT thing (any art pieces that looks remotely non-Anime style), delete it as quickly as possible or don't review it at all, it's not Japanese enough looking". I had a much better insight into a specific situation that involved Touhou art and a huge debate around it, but unfortunately I an no longer find that exact discussion from one of my previous threads. 

 

EDIT: I have found that original discussion, and it is just as bad as I remember. I will not link the art piece where this all happened, nor mention the name of the artist unless getting asked to do so. Spoiler just for the sake of common sense, and dur to some of the topics mentioned here: 

Spoiler

orgolove (over 9 years ago)

Woah, Green hair obsession! Not that there's anything wrong with that.

  • 2  points
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user 368087 (over 9 years ago)

Damn, my five favorite characters are raped by some random guys...
This art is just horrible.

  • -10  points
  • Reply 

 

Skylander (over 9 years ago)

Drewko said:
Damn, my five favorite characters are raped by some random guys...
This art is just horrible.

You should be used to it by now. Shit like this is the only Touhou fan art now. I'm sure all the yuri and futa fans packed up and left Touhou long ago. I don't blame them.

  • -21  points
  • Reply 

 

Zaku Zelo (over 9 years ago)

orgolove said:
Woah, Green hair obsession! Not that there's anything wrong with that.

There's plenty wrong with rape, anon. Especially mass rape like this.

  • -7  points
  • Reply 

 

OOZ662 (over 9 years ago)

So many white knights blazing out of the woodwork these days.
Blacklists, guys.

  • 4  points
  • Reply 

 

FJH (over 9 years ago)

I thought we had a Green Hair Alliance Pool admist the hundred other Touhou pools.

  • 0  points
  • Reply 

 

OOZ662 (over 9 years ago)

FJH said:
I thought we had a Green Hair Alliance Pool admist the hundred other Touhou pools.

pool #3830; it was changed from "green hair" to "all the same hair."

  • 0  points
  • Reply 

 

WatcherCCG (over 9 years ago)

OOZ662 said:
So many white knights blazing out of the woodwork these days.
Blacklists, guys.

Which don't work with a basic account. Besides, some people don't think rape should be glorified like this. Ever. And anyways, wouldn't Komachi or just the gods in general slaughter these dudes for violating Eiki?

  • -8 points
  • Reply 

 

OOZ662 (over 9 years ago)

WatcherCCG said:
Which don't work with a basic account. Besides, some people don't think rape should be glorified like this. Ever.

I've never heard of that, and it isn't listed as such.
A lot of people think sex with animals should be taboo, alongside loli and plenty of other things we still host. Danbooru is an image repository, not a place to spark ideology debates.

  • 4  points
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WatcherCCG (over 9 years ago)

OOZ662 said:
I've never heard of that, and it isn't listed as such.
A lot of people think sex with animals should be taboo, alongside loli and plenty of other things we still host. Danbooru is an image repository, not a place to spark ideology debates.

Fair point. I just know that MY blacklist settings seem to not work at all, and I'm on a basic account.

  • 0  points
  • Reply 

 

OOZ662 (over 9 years ago)

WatcherCCG said:
Fair point. I just know that MY blacklist settings seem to not work at all, and I'm on a basic account.

Firstly, check that each tag you want to block is on its own line. If you have them all on the same line, only posts containing all of the tags at once will be blocked. For instance (minus the brackets),
[rape blonde_hair] would not block this post.
[rape
blonde_hair] would block this post.
This way you can do things like combine the spoilers tag with a specific copyright so that you can still see the "standard" art for a series while keeping spoilers away. If it still doesn't work, it may be a bug with Danbooru 2, and should be brought up in the forum if not the bug tracking site (which can also be found in the forum).

  • 2 points
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Zaku Zelo (over 9 years ago)

So it's white knighting now to say that rape is bad. How depressing.

  • -4  points
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CGrascal (over 9 years ago)

Zaku_Zelo said:
So it's white knighting now to say that rape is bad. How depressing.

No, it's white knighting when it's done in a condescending tone

  • 4 points 
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S1eth (over 9 years ago)

How do you know it's not consensual?

  • 4  points
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Zaku Zelo (over 9 years ago)

CGrascal said:
No, it's white knighting when it's done in a condescending tone

That wasn't a condescending tone.

  • -3  points
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ice73 (over 9 years ago)

S1eth said:
How do you know it's not consensual?

I was wondering that myself. Mintycake tagged it rape, but all that's said on Pixiv is "orgy" (乱交).

  • 3  points
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mintycake (over 9 years ago)

I kinda assumed rape mostly from looking at it, an seeing that a lot of the artist's material looks like forced situations, but if you think it doesn't fit, feel free to change it~

  • 0  points
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ice73 (over 9 years ago)

Nah, there are restraints anyway. No hair off the top of my head.

  • -2  points
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OOZ662 (over 9 years ago)

Zaku_Zelo said:
So it's white knighting now to say that rape is bad. How depressing.

A site-wide comment; been a rash of people complaining about blacklistable topics recently.

  • 2 points
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angrybull (over 9 years ago)

WatcherCCG said:
And anyways, wouldn't Komachi or just the gods in general slaughter these dudes for violating Eiki?

No, Mima will do the slaughtering because they forgot her, again. Ruukoto will try to clean up the mess, but those stains won't come out.

  • 1 point
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OOZ662 (over 9 years ago)

...did I really tag this with faceless_mail? I think I need help...
EDIT: The dog_ears was for Kyouko, though. Isn't that what those are?

  • 0 ponts  
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S1eth (over 9 years ago)

Until now, we've used dog_ears for when we have the meta knowledge (from canon or because the artist said so) that the character is a dog girl/boy. (That's also why we have dog ears/wolf ears/fox ears even though one cannot distinguish between them). Since Kyouko is a yamabiko youkai and not a dog, she's usually not tagged with dog_ears, but simply animal_ears.

  • -1 point
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cheinsaa (over 9 years ago)

Time to blacklist this artist too since this and rest of his pixiv is garbage...
(And I CAN complain here because rape is in my BLACKLIST and this is clear fucking RAPE, so should be hidden) (Updated over 9 years ago)

  • -6 points 
  • Reply 

 

OOZ662 (over 9 years ago)

cheinsaa said:

Time to blacklist this artist too since this and rest of his pixiv is garbage...
(And I CAN complain here beacuse rape is in my BLACKLIST and this is clear fucking RAPE, so should be hidden)

That's more of a tag war issue than a blacklisting problem at this point.

  • 1  point
  • Reply 

 

Hoobajoob (over 9 years ago)

OOZ662 said:
A lot of people think sex with animals should be taboo, alongside loli and plenty of other things we still host. Danbooru is an image repository, not a place to spark ideology debates.

Haha, that's cute. You're trying to defend the concept of rape. Spoilers: It's objectively bad and a crime. It's not a fetish, its not a taboo, its a flat out crime. There's no "ideology" about it. If you like it, you're wrong, there is no debate. Danbooru has policies against things like guro and scat because they are low quality and usually grotesque subject matters. Honestly, it's kind of odd rape isn't in that list, too.

  • -11 points
  • Reply 

Interesting enough, it seems like arguments of this kind are no longer really a part o Touhou posts. Have people calmed down, have times changed, or just everyone resigned and accepted all the shit that is posted every now an then? In a way, this just makes a bad image for fanart, I will not lie. Especially when you end up, as a by-product of ignorance and still being a small series better know for its fan-works, to be mislabeled as a "hentai series" more than anything/have people's first experience with Touhou be through adult doujins (funny how when I use he word "doujin" in discussions, and that happened irl as well, people assume I am talking about hentai mange; aka the "doujin = porn" argument)
 

I feel like this has gone quite a little bit off-topic from the original intention. However, if you could, we can turn this into a worthy continuation of the original thread. Initially, I was planning to post this merely as a comment in that thread. However, I have decided to go instead for a new thread just so we could have a fresh talk on the issues and perhaps get a better understanding of why there are so many people who believe anime and the art style itself is so problematic, if not outright detested. 

 

Just to end this on a more positive note, i will link two videos that i have found to be very interesting:

https://youtu.be/CW5pIEzyeh0 (YouTube refuses the embed for some stupid copyright reasons) An evolution of animated films in Japan, from 1907 to 2020. I did not know they were doing animation films so early in the 1900s

And a history of anime series from the 1960s onwards

Edited by CountVonNumenor
Finally found that piece of text I thought to be lost
  • Thinking 2

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I’ve noticed that female anime characters tend to be more like a mix of several fetish rather than actual girls/characters. We could say the same thing for male characters, like 15 yo teens who naturally have the body of Schwarzenegger (as if it was normal and possible).

In my opinion there is a sort of dehumanisation of the human kind coming from hentai addict weebs and "DiscordMod" specimens (sorry for the actual discord moderator it’s not nice I know). They think it’s because hentai characters are fictional that they can allow themselves to support rape zoophilia or pedophilia (in a way we can call it support)

Right now I can’t really prove there is a correlation between loving this type of content and the desire of reproducing  what they see in Hentai irl. But I’m sure it can deteriorate the mental health of some people and, let’s be serious, Danbooru have its part of responsability in it 

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@Nekofire thank you for the reply! Given nobody wrote in here for a week, I ended up thinking this thread will go nowhere and I forgot about it. But you have brought some good points. A lot of the things you have mentioned remind me of this image, which despite the fact I have used in a different context (talking about Fusu), I think rather fits:

unknown.png

"No anon, your waifu doesn't love you or as you go out with her, or go into any sort of romantic confession to a complete foreigner. No anon, your waifu will not allow or want you touch her in inappropriate places. No anon, your waifu will not beg you have sex with her"

These are all coming from someone who has yet to even have the chance of even thinking what some of these things actually are (yeah, I still have to work on that aspect of my life...)

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To put everything simply (and bluntly)
it's Japanese animated soap opera.
Though anime is like a magic word to make people forgot that the west also made cheap awful stuff.

Existing public view
even if you only watch the quality stuff, general public already perceived anime as a down bad environment, even Japanese themself think so.
it will be super hard to convince them unless they took interest themself.
even if you manage to convince them, they'll probably end up greeted with the 'average stuff', confirming their initial opinion as true.

Fan services
i think i don't need to explain this you get what i mean
human nature at the pinnacle

Clickbaity
Most of them are just made for gathering audience. (in relation of fan service)
It's a business after all, the only way to get profit is to gather as many audience as possible.
For more extreme example is those "I isekaid as a lustful adventurer in a world consist only women" titles
(it's quite hilarious they used isekai as an excuse for defying social norms)

Cheap production
I don't know if you realized, but there's bazillion anime titles out there.
If you were to watch a random anime you'd surely be disappointed.
It's all just poorly put together for the sake of filling the market.
Getting as many episodes as they could with least effort.

Even the popular ones often just poorly written. *cough* i actually having hard time picking an example because there's so many of them
hmmm *cough* Touhou (ZUN pls) *cough*

If you had read a world class novel or movies or anime you'd understand how distant their difference than average anime.
Though it's quite unreasonable to demand everything in high quality. again lowest cost production possible for profit.
Quite a bad time to talk about this since last year there's was quite a few amazing anime released like Cyberpunk, Chainsaw Man and Bocchi the Rock.

 

And as an artist point of view
Anime artstyle lack of creative freedom, everything built on the same foundation.
They had ran out of originality that they had to put complicated design, like pattern on their clothes (ZUN PLS) or tattooed face (Demon Slayer) or multicolorred hair (Vtuber)
DON'T YOU KNOW HOW HARD ARE THOSE TO DRAW?

I haven't even picked on the animation
It took One Piece 1015 episodes to properly lipsync, that simple thing was delightful.
Again in relation of cheap production.

that includes me
help

 

edit: wait why there's two parts of this topic?
also use safebooru.org

Edited by Drunken_Flower
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15 hours ago, Drunken_Flower said:

To put everything simply (and bluntly)
it's Japanese animated soap opera.

Honestly, this is the first time when I hear anyone comparing anime to soap opera, and therefore I m feeling a little surprised of the comparison. Especially when, at least here in Romania, we understand "soap opera" through the word "telenovela". But if you mean the idea of mass-production and repetitive plots/plot elements, then I may be able to see the similarity. 

 

15 hours ago, Drunken_Flower said:

Even if you only watch the quality stuff, general public already perceived anime as a down bad environment, even Japanese themselves think so.

I really have not though that the Japanese themselves would actually have problems with anime. Especially how popular and seemingly everywhere it is while walking on the streets of their big cities. As for quality stuff, I am still looking for something to start from. Yet I am not sure what anime series to start up with. I have watched all 17 episodes of Memories of Phantasm, the TeamFourStar Abridged version of Hellsing Ultimate, and was planning to watch the anime adaptation of Amagami. 

 

15 hours ago, Drunken_Flower said:

Fan services
i think i don't need to explain this you get what i mean
human nature at the pinnacle

I will come back to this one a bit later in the reply, when I will attach some media recommendations for the continuing of the discussion. 

 

15 hours ago, Drunken_Flower said:

Cheap production
I don't know if you realized, but there's bazillion anime titles out there.
If you were to watch a random anime you'd surely be disappointed.

And again, this is why I am looking for some recommendation, or better said a starting point if I want to explore the medium. The entire idea of this thread started last year, based on a thread that was over 2 years ago. I have been writing on this topic since I am unfamiliar with anime, had never watched an anime or read a manga before, and just could not understand the sheer hate the entire medium of Japanese production has been receiving online on different forums. And from there, the original ("Part I") version of the thread.

 

15 hours ago, Drunken_Flower said:

Even the popular ones often just poorly written. *cough* i actually having hard time picking an example because there's so many of them
hmmm *cough* Touhou (ZUN pls) *cough*

There are a few things I may have understood from here, and I have the feeling that all of them might be wrong. Could you please elaborate some more in here? Especially in the part related to ZUN. 

 

15 hours ago, Drunken_Flower said:

And as an artist point of view
Anime artstyle lack of creative freedom, everything built on the same foundation.
They had ran out of originality that they had to put complicated design, like pattern on their clothes (ZUN PLS) or tattooed face (Demon Slayer) or multicolorred hair (Vtuber)

Interesting take, especially hearing from someone who draws (I have seen your drawings in the past, they are very good). Most of the time, I have not thought about the anime art style being lacking in originality, but at a closer inspection, there may actually be reasons for the claim. But to be honest, I completely lack artistic culture, and have quite a hard time processing a drawing more than just "I like this" or "neuron activation". I just like something, and do not actually understand why I like it. Besides, I already explained in a previous thread how I even ended up in the anime area, s well as orienting my drawing style towards anime despite lacking any sort of basis even in basic drawing. 

Again, I would really like to hear a lot more about the topic of the art style in itself, as well as more on the ideas you have expressed. 

 

15 hours ago, Drunken_Flower said:

edit: wait why there's two parts of this topic?

Well, there was originally this thread: 

 

15 hours ago, Drunken_Flower said:

also use safebooru.org

I have used Safebooru in the past, for about half a year. However, I got really bored of it, and after getting more used to the nature of content on Danbooru, I ended up preferring to use that board instead of the safe board. I am very sure Danbooru has way more content than Safebooru, even within the safe for work images. I guess it is a small price to pay for getting to all the delicious content....

 

Alright, in regards to the annex content I was talking about. @_.Mevs I think you will be finding these interesting, especially if connecting with your recent thread. There are 3 videos I find very relevant for the discussion, and I would like to share them. I am warning you from the start though, the longest one of them is over an hour long. The two are 40, respectively 16 minutes long. 
 

1) This one starts on a bit of a joke note - how would an anime girl look like if you were to build one in real life. Th results are... kind of expected. However, in the second half, it suddenly turns into a psychological discussion about why we like waifus and what happens inside our brain. At least if I remember well (it's been over a year since I last watched the video):

 

2) The 1 hour and 15 minutes long video on the whole concept of "waifu" and "waifu-ism". A very interesting overview of the history of the concept, how it evolved in anime, as well as some of the pitfalls some series might be falling into when they design a series around a moe character instead of the characters as part of a series:

 

3) From the same author, again an analysis video, but on the concept of fanservice. A brief history of how it appeared and evolved in anime, accompanied by some examples of good and bad use of fanservice. And just like before, a discussion on why people may have a problem with the whole concept. I have found the entire section discussing about the reception of fanservice very interesting, as well as that in which the author mentioned the Hayes Code (which I never knew before), that may have put the United States 30 years in the past with the evolution of animation and themes approached (I have doubts though that the rest of the world outside Japan has a more liberal view on nudity and sexuality, or at least not as open as that of the "Sunrise Land"). The video about fanservice is actually very relevant, given that I have talked quite a lot about Touhou Memories of Phantasm around Christmas, as well as the use of this tool in that anime. Bonus, a lot of very quotable sentences:

  • "I am of the firm belief that you should just mentally increase the age of any anime character by like three years because it'll make the show better. Ain't no way that Okabe this scruffy looking college dude is meant to be 18. This man is clearly like 25." (in reference to a scene presented on screen)
  • "But hey sometimes these are just children you're showing me. That is a fucking child. I don't care if age is just a number. That number is 9-1-1 you should be in fucking prison [Ladies and gentlemen, we got him starts playing]" (in regards to another fanservice scene of more questionable nature, featuring the classic "9000 year old loli" trope)

 

The comment section also offered some very good replies for this latter video:

"The thing that really turns me off of fanservice is the recurring theme of “against their will”. SOOOO much fanservice in anime is women being exposed, groped, viewed, or straight up assaulted against their will, and it’s always played for lighthearted fun. Even shows where fanservice fun is the entire point focus mainly on girls being unwillingly sexualized, with male consequences (if any) portrayed as a simple punchline. Female characters who are proactively sexual seem to be rare (not nonexistent, but heavily outnumbered by sexy girls who don’t want to be sexualized)"


"I never watched fire force, but based on what was shown here I don't think any subversion of trope could've saved that Tamaki character. Her entire thing apparently is existing to be harassed "by accident" over and over again. So even in the scenes where this somehow makes her win a fight and makes her opponent look ridiculous, she's still being harassed and humiliated and dehumanized. She's the most exaggerated example of why I've been so turned off by anime for a while and still am very cautious with what I watch. They have to include a woman being harassed for laughs at least once in so many shows and it gets fucking old really quick" (the video used Fire Force as an example of fanservice executed poorly and in improper moments)


"I think it also bears mentioning that a lot of the arguments against fan service aren’t against sexuality in media, but rather specifically, the objectification of women, and portraying sexual harassment as something that is funny or light hearted. I see a lot of people not realizing that watching someone being objectified, can make the viewer feel objectified."


"From what I've seen, sex and nudity in anime is never seen as intimate or a sign of trust. Sex is depicted and silly, lewd, and depraved. It's treated both as a punchline and as a gesture. Personally, I think sex and nudity in anime should be like the James bond films where they only happen if there is an actual scene of intimacy/intercourse, which never happens in anime."


"I think when you were contrasting Kill la Kill to Fire Force you hit the nail on the head for me for what makes me totally chill about fanservice vs not liking it. As a woman who's watched hundreds of series, I went through a phase where I didn't mind fanservice at all because I was so desencitized to it, to it being incredibly annoying, to now trying to look at it in a more balanced way. The two things that break fanservice for me is consent and tone. Fan service for comedy or in romance shows is perfect. Not when it interrupts really impactful moments. But consent is the biggest element to me now. Consent is why I loved Dress Up Darling and why characters like Yoruichi from Bleach are amazing. Consent is why I thought Food Wars was genius when I first saw it. And consent is why I don't want to put up with ecchi shows that cheaply disrespect their characters." (oh yeah, Food Wars and Kill la Kill were used as an example of well executed fanservice)


"I've seen people use the term "perv pandering" to specifically refer to the sexual type of fanservice. I always preferred that term. It feels more accurate because as a fan, often those sorts of scenes feel like a disservice to me."


"Honestly I think the biggest issue you run into with fanservice is how insidious and unexpected it can be. You've got some shows that are right out there with the fact that this is what you're getting, but then there are others marketing themselves as Serious Anime, or even Art Pieces, and you get two episodes in and it's actually another box of Whoops, All Titties. This leads a lot of people in that "I like fanservice when it's in its place/unintrusive" to just...not be able to trust anime at large. The other bit is when it's lazy. There are a lot of showrunners who clearly don't think much of their audience, because they're sure we'll be content with "plot" instead of plot, when unfortunately for them the truth is most of us are well aware of great shows that have both. The idea that a non-porn show doesn't have to be engaging if it's sexy enough is just...incorrect. But it seems like writers fall for this idea all the time."


"As a "not cis male" anime watcher my biggest problem with it is when it's very obviously non-consensual (like Tamaki). ESPECIALLY when the characters are clearly minors (middle and high schoolers often get this treatment) And seeing characters of my own demographic getting hyper-sexualised in these ways is extremely dehumanizing and feels very rape-y. One example is the bathroom scene in Konosuba S1, I've genuinely never felt so uncomfortable watching an anime scene, and I've seen some messed up shit. Having a very real problem get used for laughs is degrading. But I've given up on shows like Fire Force solely because of the fanservice. I don't expect many male anime watchers to fully understand just how awfully this content can affect us, but I'd love to hear it be acknowledged as this kind of media trivializes things like assault and objectification."


"The most off-putting part of fanservice for me is when it’s inappropriately done to extremely underage looking female characters… and the quickest example I can give is No Game No Life"


"I remember watching Kill La Kill and Ryuko being extremely embarrassed when she transformed. Throughout the show she learns to accept Senketsu and embrace her power growing as character. I don't know, seeing a lot of crazy fanservice in anime that just felt forced, it was pretty interesting to see the whole trope flipped on its head. Sits as one of my favourite shows because of it."


"I usually dislike fanservice because it often ruins the tone or otherwise breaks immersion. That said Kill La Kill is my favorite anime of all time. It brilliantly subverts and incorporates the trope while managing to keep an interesting story and endearing characters. It's flashy, over the top, and surprisingly earnest. It has a distinct style that's shamelessly fun, and the goofy fanservice fits in seamlessly with all the epic shots and hectic animation."


"Part of the reason why I'm put off by fanservice is that more and more anime rely on it. It's not just the occasional moment to de-escalate tensions, that in itself tends to be fine. It happens so often both within singular titles and within the anime roster as a whole to the point that it feels overdone. There are times where it makes sense, such as Ranma 1/2 and Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt where they serve as part of the premise. The former uses it occasionally and has other jokes and action happening to desaturate the fanservice; the latter tells you in the title that the fanservice is the premise but is surprisingly good with action scenes that HAPPEN to have mature jokes rather than relying solely on said jokes. What I didn't like about Interspecies Reviewers was that the fanservice was everything: the joke, the plot (even the overarching one towards the end), the motivation of the characters. While funny at times, it ruined my sense of immersion because I couldn't stop thinking about how a society could function with so many 'adult workers' (the series itself establishes that cross-breeding with succubi over generations has basically resulted in the industry). As a result, the world in which these characters reside lacks depth and the main cast lack any actual defining character traits. And that's what I feel is happening with a lot of titles: they push fanservice to the point of absurdity that cheapens the overall experience."


"Personally I get really put off (almost grossed) by almost all fan service, even stuff like Food Wars’. But I can still recognize what good and bad implementation of nudity is and definitely agree on every part there. But my main gripe isn’t shows with fan service, good or bad, even if it ruins the story because I can avoid those. It’s how fan service makes talking about anime with people who don’t watch it a lot more awkward. What I love are good stories, comedic or dramatic moments, beautiful scenery and memorable characters, no matter the medium. Anime has a lot of that which is why I watch a lot of anime, not because of the lewd content but it’s weird justifying it in conversations with people who have never seen an anime before."


"The last time fanservice seriously put me off was Fire Force. I’m no prude but something about the “against her will” element really turned me off to the point of finding it unbearable. The scenes with Tamaki border on sexual harassment as she is undressed and groped; She cries and feels humiliated. It’s not like it’s fun for her… I’m not usually too bothered by fanservice but I can say this one actually kind of disturbed me"


"The first anime i watched fully was Highschool DXD. I was shocked about how much fanservice was in there. Then I went on to look at other things, but looking back at it I would say that it was a good start because it didn't get in the way of the story and fit due to Issei being a literal pervert but he isn't just a pervert"


"It's nice to see a detailed take on fanservice and proper examples not only for and against it, but just showing how rooted it is in the medium. However, i feel like my own personal tastes are still way too against it - even with this knowledge - to really tolerate it again. I wish it weren't so, but it's just not something I'm interested in seeing. One would say maybe I'm just not an anime kinda guy, and that may be true ... but I guess the better thing to do would be to keep looking. I'm sure there's a ton of good anime out there still that doesn't really try to do anything with it ... so long as I keep digging"


"To me, I always groan whenever the kind of fanservice pop up that is just in the way of the plot and trying to do things for cheap laughs. I kinda liken it to the jump-scare in horror games. Its cheap and easy and just get's a simple instinctual reaction out of the viewer. Nothing that was made with actual thought that sticks with you. The one fanservice scene I can say was well done was the second dance scene between Ledo and Amy in Suisei No Gargantaia. That one was a wonderful moment of character building and was just sweet overall. The whole thing being set to the background of auroras and a gentle flute melody really sold it"


"I feel like you can have nudity or forced feeling fanservice in an anime but it needs to feel natural. Like in Ghost in The Shell the beginning of the movie you literally see her entire naked body but it'a done in a way that's supposed to be tasteful. Fanservice is totally fine in anime and if people like the anime they like because of it then more power to them, but when it's overdone and so forced it sometimes just makes me roll my eyes and it's one of the reasons I'm really not into most anime"


"Maybe this is just me, but I usually dislike fan service in animes because a lot of times it’s women in embarrassing/ humiliating situations - it’s never done to make them feel cool or be in power (I’ve only seen it to be the case in rare situations). I would feel so much comfortable if they were fine with it and enjoying themselves. Many times they’re shown as innocent beings who’re not realising they’re turning the guys on by accidentally flashing them their underwears etc. Honestly, I just want the women who’re doing fan service to do it because they want to and feel like it, and I want their characters to have their own arch’s and be well developed and not there just for fan service. Erza from fairy tail was my favourite character because of this while I hated Lucy."


"The tonal dissonance comes from the fact that the creators don't expect horniness to distract from the heroic fantasy of the story; they expect that it's supposed to enhance it, which is mostly only possible if you see the character more as a sex object and a trophy to be won, rather than a person who has just suffered trauma and is emotionally distraught. The problem is that you have more empathy for her than the creators expected, but that's not your mistake." (again, in reference to Fire Force)


"Y'know, when you started talking about shows that weaved fanservice into the narrative, I thought back to a show for which I did fansub translations -- it was called Yumeria. And yeah, it definitely wove fanservice into the narrative; the core premise is that these overly endowed girls and a few lolis gain super powers to fight monsters by being groped by the MC. Yeah... seriously. The thing is that the narrative is overall weak and the show tries to mix in too much and it gets overall confused... like they try to fit in a conventional teen romance storyline, and then a love... parallelogram. And in the middle, the lolis sink back from being lolis to just being ordinary kids who want to be kids. And in all of it, somehow, sexual assault as a form of recharging warriors' batteries still has to drive a sci-fi narrative. The end result is that an attempt to use fanservice intelligently only gets lost and no longer appears intelligent at all. One example that I love is Mushoku Tensei. There are loads of sex jokes, typical fanservice tropes, lewd inner thoughts, all of the things that people hate, but the MC actually matures throughout the series and so, too, does the application of the fanservice. It becomes less and less out of hand and less and less out of place progressively throughout the show."


"I don't mind mild fan service when it fits the mood/situation. When it takes you out of the moment for some cheap sex sale, it's really hard for me to continue watching. Like you said, it destroys the tension they were just building. There are a lot, a LOT, of series that don't do this and it's great but I wish that the "time and place for everything" was taken to heart a little more. To clarify further. I don't think there should be NO fan servive. Just because I'm not a fan of it doesn't mean other people can't have it."


"Man this video gave me so much to think about regarding anime fan service. Like you just glossed over it but that fact that magical girl anime often seem to cross the line into some form of nudity frustrates me and it starts to make sense considering the lines you can trace from them back to cutie honey. You also had a pretty strong stance about how fan service can be used well or poorly, which was provoking. But it still felt like a bit of a generalization. Like there’s probably been thousands of attempts in writing and video to address why some people (ie in America) are more comfortable seeing extreme violence and gore than skin or nudity. But it still felt like a bit of an oversimplification to say the whole community is being immature by not liking nudity in anime."


"The thing people fail to understand is that anime and manga are not 'art', and few of them try very much to BE 'art'. It's popular entertainment for a Japanese audience. I'm not saying that the mangaka/anime writers never have a thought in their head while creating their work, but the whole thing is very business-driven. Anime and Manga is like if Pulp Fiction never died off, or like if Western Comics never 'grew up'. A lot of manga magazines have reader votes or reader surveys, which can heavily influence the content of the manga in the magazine. If a series does not thrill an audience in any way, it gets axed. And what's an easy way to thrill an audience when you've got nothing else up your sleeve? Fanservice! When there's a slump in sales or votes, the mangaka and the editor/s they work with tend to do some hasty course correction to bring back the hype. Some mangaka do some hard thinking and rework the story. Others just say "hmm, I guess it just needs more fanservice next time..."


"I’m not against romantic or sexy scenes/situations in anime. If you’ve ever seen/read Tokyo Ghoul, I think the way they handled that scene with Kaneki and Touka was beautiful. Especially in the manga. Everything was consensual, amazingly, with Touka even initiating it. Kaneki didn’t force, grope or pressure her for anything. He treated her like a person, like he cared, and was considerate of her the whole time. I thought he was very sweet, more than what you’d even get in shoujo/josei anime/manga most of the time, and this was a seinen. The audience still got their skin shots, but Touka was never reduced to body parts and strange sounds. It’s the absurd, perverse and even cruel ways fanservice is done that’s the problem. And that the female characters entire purpose is for sexual stimulation. I don’t see how it could possibly hurt to show the male characters treating the female characters with more care, decency and empathy. And for the female characters to offer MORE than just sexual arousal. Surely this would only be a benefit."


"100% agree about Tamaki. almost quit the show over her first "pervert" scene. i know other people get semi nude but they never "accidently" have hands laid on their genitals as a joke." (again, in reference to the Fire Force segment)


"My biggest issue with sexual fanservice in anime are more the ones where the "women" are incredibly infantilized (or straight up are young girls)... which, unfortunately is most of them."


"The sort of sexual, exploitative fanservice is really what has kept me out of getting into anime as a whole, and it’s really unfortunate. There’s so much wonderful, quality content, but there have also been so many occasions when I start a show and I’m disappointed by unnecessary tiddie shots and objectification of female characters. Watching it as a woman completely takes me out of it and it’s so frustrating. I just want to watch something interesting without having to worry about being reminded of how the world views women as pieces of meat."


"This video really changed my perspective in fanservice. I'm the type of person who avoids an anime the moment I notice a big titty character or skimpy clothing 'cause there's only one way that goes to, sexualization. Kill la Kill was one of those animes. I never planned on watching it, but after your explanation on how the fanservice in the show is used, it genuinely sounds like an anime I would enjoy. I guess I got unlucky on my first introduction to it. The posts I've seen on it were people being those background characters of men having nosebleeds, jaws on the floor. Some fan's (most likely male) posts completely ignore the whole point of "empowering sexuality" and talk about how "submissive an breedable they soooo look" instead. The whole rape joke and fetish all over again. Even when the anime was talking about how empowering sexuality can be, they still somehow only see it as their porno to come back to. I do plan on watching Kill la Kill after this though. Good vid and explanation over all."


"Personally I think that the “anime is trash and so am I” thing is not about fan-service and nudity, but about the bottom of the barrel filth storytelling that floods the medium, like Asterisk War, or Slave Harem in the Labyrinth of another world"


"For me, the bad part of fanservice is simply the tonal dissonance, and the morally questionable, for example: Clearly underage characters experiencing it, non-consensual, and intrusive to the story. In general I don't like it, but that's what I hate the most if it happens"


"Your explanation of how Fire Force perpetuates fanservice negativity is perfect! I'm all for fun ridiculous fanservice, sexual expression, and sex positivity but when it's literally ruining the character's legitimacy within that world it's being done wrong. The other thing that becomes problematic in a lot of anime is when women are portrayed as unintelligent, always needing to rely on the male protagonist, or just not being capable in almost any capacity"


"Not really. This is one of those situations where discussing something from within the fandom does a disservice to the complexities. In Japan, the concept of "service" predates anime and is everywhere throughout the culture. For example, before Cutie Honey we have idols, who are packaged and presented in a very similar way as anime. Especially in the 1970s, it was common for most female stars to present "fan service" in the form of nude or gravure photography. In the 1960s the film genre called "Pink film" started, where almost every woman had nude scenes, even if they were a major actor/protagonist. Within the world of adult entertainment, prostitution, etc, it's always been common practice to refer to these things as "service". The word is wildly used this way in Japan. "Fan service", is a slang that developed somewhat alongside anime, but denotes services which are done complimentary, or for free for the fans. And in Japanese we use this word all the time to refer to risky/suggestive things. Even 30 years ago it's normal ask a girl to give you "service" as a euphemism for perverted stuff. Explaining "fan service" in this way hyper focuses this to anime industry, when this is a wider, older and much more engrained cultural phenomenon in Japan. This is not anime, this is Japanese culture."


"You didn't touch on the biggest problem with fan service, which is how lead R18 scenes in anime that rarely impact the plot and fuel, while not the majority, a large group of R18 culture male anime fans, especially in the Philippines and Japan. Fan service birthed Legend of the Archfiend, Redo of Healer and the excessive amount of R18 in Berserk that didn't fuel the plot and the one that did was completely trumped by making Casca basically brain dead and a target for it to be attempted on her again."


"Although it's nice to see empowerment through sexualization every once in a while, I wish that wasn't the ONLY form of empowerment that gets talked about when it comes to anime. As a woman who's male friends watch a lot of anime, I'm very picky with what I watch because the way women are generally depicted in shows. Not just the sexualization, but the lack of meaningful stories, the lack of detail on the woman experience, the lack of the woman perspective on relationships. I don't want the only shows that empower women to be through extreme fanservice that they are aware of, although those shows themselves are good. I agree with including fanservice in a good way, and a big part of that is through the equality of it and "not just the hot girls" like you said for food wars, and fanservice that also fits the tone of the story. BUT! I dislike the disregard of it being male pandering because definitely, most of time, it's only for men, or maaayyyybe wlw. As a woman, seeing jiggly boobs, even in a "good" way, throughout the entire show without anything coming from the opposite sex, is unappealing. It's fanservice for male fans, not fans in general. I'm not against nudity in shows, live action or animated. But for say, live action fantasy shows showing misogyny through overused explicit rape scenes, I still don't appreciate it. I think this video essay would have been a lot more insightful if it delved deeper into a woman's perspective on anime. Throughout the entire thing, women's perspectives and psyche are talked about as a hypothetical, a concept, a mystical idea that takes aot to understand, but not a simple, real thing that can be put off by these shows. If you ever do a part two, I'd love for you to feature a woman who is an anime enthusiast where the two of you can have a discussion on this topic. Is extreme but self aware sexualization always empowering? Even if the fanservice is good for plot, is it still fun for a woman to watch a bunch of jiggling boobs on screen? Definitely feel like this was a huge missed topic."


"I have only one minor gripe with this essay, and it's in the fire force section and was when talking about how Tamaki being borderline nude while begging Shinra to save her after having her clothes burnt off took away from the tension. My issue is simply that I believe it's a disservice to say it is less impactful, I haven't personally seen Fire Force but I do dabble in narrative artistry and the decision to have her not regain any form of dignity is a conscious one to show how desperate she is in that moment, she's vulnerable and weak at that point and relying on the only one of her team mates there to help her. I believe this because my basic assumption is that between her having her clothes burnt off for the gag, which I agree is distracting since she was already on the side and there was no need to poke fun at her, and her begging Shinra there was a small fight. The joke had time to make it's exit before the focus returned to her. I could be wrong about the timescale but the way the video addressed it made it seem like there was some time between the two events though that would be exclusively for the viewer. Cinematic time as it were. I pretty much agree with everything else, it is pretty bad to see a character's potential wasted for a joke regardless of context be it the weak coward archetype who doesn't ever get stronger or the overtly sexualized token girl."


"Something I notice in all the clips featuring Tamaki is that she seems pretty mortified by being exposed in these ways. But, if this really is a curse that she's been afflicted with for God knows how long, shouldn't she be used to it by now? Shouldn't her coworkers? I think it could have present some interesting opportunities to have her be numb to her curse or even just begrudgingly used to it. At the very least, I think it would have gone a long way towards allowing the fanservice to exist without being so tonally dissonant. Honestly, that kind of compulsory embarrassment which is so common in anime fanservice scenes is a good example of the immaturity you refer to near the ending. The Ur example of this is the "walk-in" trope, where a character — usually a male — walks in on another — usually female — character and reacts extremely and often violently embarrassed. What always gets me about such scenes is the compulsory aspect of it, as if it were impossible for a person to react any other way. It's so ubiquitous that, when it is subverted in any way, viewers (myself included) almost always express relief that something different finally happened. It ultimately just comes down to how thoughtless most creators' treatment of sexuality is. They really seem to struggle with integrating sexuality into their characters in non-cliché ways, and allowing that integration to be informed by their a character's personality, rather than (what I can only assume) are deep-seated cultural notions about propriety and decency — i.e. Tamaki can't be too blasé about being exposed, or else certain viewers might become judgmental or disapproving, but that's opening a bag of worms I am not well-informed enough to open. Really, it's just disheartening to think that so many creators just seem unwilling to do anything interesting or unique with this subject matter."


"I'm gonna throw my hat into the ring, so lets start off and say that yes I am a straight male and yes I do enjoy fanservice okay moving on. I find anime girls to be attractive, they are usually drawn that way for a reason, and as long as there's a distinct line between when its okay and not okay for fanservice then why not their fictional characters and I don't think its harming anyone. That being said, why does nezuko's boobs get bigger in her deomon form, and yes I've heard the excuse that it makes her seem older and more mature to show that shes transformed, but like the horns already do that and like even if I agree to the previous statement they don't need to be so noticeable. And then there's Marin Kitigawa, I liked dress up darling but lady really couldn't tell that she was making gojo uncomfortable or the fact that she's stripping in front of him! Giving a female character some extra cake is effectively the same as giving a male a 6 pack, its just a hint of fanservice that doesn't disrupt the show, fanservice might even enhance it in the case of chainsaw man. But Asuna falling onto kirito so he can grope her has no reason in existing. There, that's my defense and prosecution of fanservice, same time next week."


"I'm pretty disappointed that you didn't really talk about the huge issue most people have with fanservice. yes, you mentioned it in passing, but not until heavily into the video. What I'm referring to is that, most if not all fan service is just sexual assault/harassments. That most fan service is extremely triggering to SA victims, how in animes where there's non consensual sexualization, the writers have no interest in showing the deep psychological repercussions that come with SA. It always "oops haha I'm so embarrassed that you explicitly touched me, anyways i dont care anymore" whereas normal humans will be scarred by that for years even. Another thing that you only grazed over that's a huge part of the problematic with fan service is the minor element. Many MANY animes sexualize minors, most MC in shonen and popular anime are in high school. MINORS. It not just something to gaslight yourself into thinking its fine because they look older than their actual age. these characters are in school uniforms, going to class, living with parents, summer break, etc. The characters are not only "technically" minors but are portrayed in their lives, clothing, scenes, and mental dilemmas as such. Last thing I wish you had spoken about is the "male gaze" and how in american film analysis that this sexualization of strictly feminine characters is detrimental to the character itself. I do appreciate your research into Kill L Kill because you mentioned how the way they used fan service in that anime was to empower the women instead of degrade them.(not quite a subversion of the male gaze but more a satire) Long story short, if your going to do a video essay on a deep dive into fan service you should cover all bases in depth instead of passingly mentioning them. Especially since the things you passingly spoke on was very serious topics that should have given a content/trigger warning at the beginning of the video. Other than that I did enjoy your video, I just don't like important criticisms to be excluded from the conversation."


"I just hate how so much fan service is with minors. It’s sexualizing children and potentially desensitizing people to predators, or thinking that it’s normal and ok to be attracted to minors. I have no issue with fan service of adult characters but that seems so rare to come across in anime. It’s mostly with teenage girls in high school. And knowing how bad sexual assault and molestation is in Japan makes watching anime with so much fan service of minors that much more uncomfortable"


"The "problem" with fanservice and many people forget... Japan is the target audience of manga and anime, not the rest of the world. And they have a different view in a lot of things (lolis and shotas principally). A great example is the manga kenichi, history strongest disciple: had a great story, still had some fanservice here and there, but nothing big or anything like that... but sales were down, so what happened? At chapter 300 PUM! SUPER MEGA FANSERVICE outta nowhere... the plot which was already good (at my view point) just became secondary to making every single female naked... and not a little, but fully nude and becoming an "almost hentai" type of manga... and this let the author make a new manga about spies... which has even more fanservice and is contender for "I can't believe this is not hentai" type of manga...  So yeah, Japan and sales are the ones that have the last words when it comes to what we get in this side of the world"


(does anyone actually read these texts I am usually inserting into the threads and comments?)

 

If there is anything you would like to say, I would really like to continue this discussion, or any other thread I started. I have been feeling quite alone recently, especially since there has been so little activity at the Shrine since the beginning of the year, or at least past couple weeks. And this place was one of the few where I could still communicate with other people in a civilized manner and not be berated for writing too much. 

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29 minutes ago, CountVonNumenor said:

Honestly, this is the first time when I hear anyone comparing anime to soap opera, and therefore I m feeling a little surprised of the comparison. Especially when, at least here in Romania, we understand "soap opera" through the word "telenovela". But if you mean the idea of mass-production and repetitive plots/plot elements, then I may be able to see the similarity. 

 

I really have not though that the Japanese themselves would actually have problems with anime. Especially how popular and seemingly everywhere it is while walking on the streets of their big cities. As for quality stuff, I am still looking for something to start from. Yet I am not sure what anime series to start up with. I have watched all 17 episodes of Memories of Phantasm, the TeamFourStar Abridged version of Hellsing Ultimate, and was planning to watch the anime adaptation of Amagami.

(does anyone actually read these texts I am usually inserting into the threads and comments?)

 

If there is anything you would like to say, I would really like to continue this discussion, or any other thread I started. I have been feeling quite alone recently, especially since there has been so little activity at the Shrine since the beginning of the year, or at least past couple weeks. And this place was one of the few where I could still communicate with other people in a civilized manner and not be berated for writing too much. 

I'm not surprised somebody would be comparing anime to soap opera though it does make sense (at least to me) for the two to be compared together.

As for fan-service, I'm not bothered by it if the characters are adults or if it's tasteful though I can definitely why alot of people can be turned off by it (or even grossed out) with things like lolicon or ecchi. I'm particularly not a fan of how some Japanese media like to pander to some sweaty perverted Japanese males with boatloads of fan-service with no thought or substance behind it. Especially if the characters are minors, then it's not good.

As far anime recommendations go: Have you ever heard of Cowboy Bebop? I think it's a great series to jump into IMO, it has fluid animation, the characters are great without felling like walking anime tropes, the soundtrack is legendary and the fan-service isn't distracting. I highly recommend it.

It's okay mate, I've (almost) read of what you posted, activity here has been pretty slow lately, though it's peaceful around here so I'm used to it. Wish I could say more but I simply don't know what to say.

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18 minutes ago, TheM3ds said:

As far anime recommendations go: Have you ever heard of Cowboy Bebop?

I have considered watching Cowboy Bebop for more than 2 years. However, I do not have a Netflix account (for using the most legal way of watching it), so I'd have to borrow my sister's account (I don't have my own account due to the fact I am barely watching films and series anymore, and am too lazy to go online search for those things if I really have to actually watch them; most of watch time for things has moved to YouTube). But I have heard that series is really good, so thank you for the suggestion. 

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17 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:

I really have not though that the Japanese themselves would actually have problems with anime. Especially how popular and seemingly everywhere it is while walking on the streets of their big cities.

okay hate might be a gross overestimation
they simply just try to avoid it if they can, especially the elders.
the youngsters seems have accepted that anime is just a part of daily life, it just exist.
but again this depends on the individual, it's not uncommon for people to dislike moe stuff

talk about moe, can we use this term instead? since moe is the most common view of anime.

 

On 1/17/2023 at 2:35 PM, Drunken_Flower said:

Even the popular ones often just poorly written. *cough* i actually having hard time picking example because there's so many of them

i just reminded what's a bad writing example
Lost Word
omg pls i cant take it anymore, i dont even know how to talk about this one
multiple plot points at once, unexplained coincidences, stretched logic, sudden convenience, plot twists, resurrected characters, character bias, i...
dont get me started on the side events

*cough* this is off topic about general anime hate already *cough*

18 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:

Could you please elaborate some more in here? Especially in the part related to ZUN. 

my requirements for good writing is quite simple
'can i feel the writings?'

-------------------------

touhou, it's like pieces of worldbuilding, it's just a collections of concepts.
all the printworks so far just an introduction to character, how they behave, how they talk, what they do.
so far all the story told is about the world itself and it's residence, not about characters in a world.
if you were to spirited into gensokyo you will mostlikely be in awe with the scenery, not the individuals.

touhou is the kind of story that people will not enjoy listening but will enjoy researching

so yeah wheres the bad part? i will say the emotionlessness,
the manga are simplistic in nature. every plot point is very straightforward. that simplistic nature leaves no place for emotion surge.
in example the manga Detective Satori, it's just people running around chasing someone. it will be quite repetitive at times
yes it has some cool scenes but uh.. how do i say it i feel no emotion, i dont feel their struggle, i dont feel Miyadeguchi hatred. i just read them.

if i were to pick a priintwork it'll be CoLA, CiLR and WaHH, it's more focused into knowing the individual than the world. i felt some understanding in them.
also PCB and DDC story is pretty neat.
i haven't read Lotus Eaters, i should though, considering my name.

 

20 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:

(does anyone actually read these texts I am usually inserting into the threads and comments?)

tbh no
i stopped few paragraphs under the video
 

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mob_suika-export.gif.6d8d97d0ef2df024e56271e49c363436.gif🍺 BEER FOR THE BEER GOD!!!🍺 mob_suika-export.gif.6d8d97d0ef2df024e56271e49c363436.gif

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22 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:

Especially how popular and seemingly everywhere it is while walking on the streets of their big cities.

"Everywhere?"

Japan is full of cute marketable mascots and iconography, but you don't find material appealing to the otaku audience "everywhere" on the streets; unless you are in a specific district for it in a very large city, like Akihabara in Tokyo.

1 hour ago, Drunken_Flower said:

the youngsters seems have accepted that anime is just a part of daily life, it just exist.
but again this depends on the individual, it's not uncommon for people to dislike moe stuff

This.

For the Japanese, I think it's best to think of anime/manga as something like their equivalent to say, the film industry in America. For example, over there (and here in England for that matter) you're going to find a fairly significant number of people who are big fans of the MCU, and you're also going to find an equally significant number of people who don't really give a shit.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am sorry for my long absence. It is time to give some answers to a few points, as they cleared some things I may have misinterpreted in the past:

 

On 1/18/2023 at 9:24 PM, Drunken_Flower said:

okay hate might be a gross overestimation
they simply just try to avoid it if they can, especially the elders.
the youngsters seems have accepted that anime is just a part of daily life, it just exist.
but again this depends on the individual, it's not uncommon for people to dislike moe stuff

talk about moe, can we use this term instead? since moe is the most common view of anime.

Thank you. This is interesting to know. Also, I am honestly feeling very confused about the meaning and use of the word "moe". Besides referring to something that is cute, how much does the explanation of the word expands? Even if to be fair, I think there was an explanation in the "why do we like waifus" video in regards to the whole "moe" thing, as well as how it spread to become so common, if not the most common view of anime.

 

On 1/18/2023 at 9:24 PM, Drunken_Flower said:

touhou, it's like pieces of worldbuilding, it's just a collections of concepts.
all the printworks so far just an introduction to character, how they behave, how they talk, what they do.
so far all the story told is about the world itself and it's residence, not about characters in a world.
if you were to spirited into gensokyo you will mostlikely be in awe with the scenery, not the individuals.

touhou is the kind of story that people will not enjoy listening but will enjoy researching

so yeah wheres the bad part? i will say the emotionlessness,
the manga are simplistic in nature. every plot point is very straightforward. that simplistic nature leaves no place for emotion surge.
in example the manga Detective Satori, it's just people running around chasing someone. it will be quite repetitive at times
yes it has some cool scenes but uh.. how do i say it i feel no emotion, i dont feel their struggle, i dont feel Miyadeguchi hatred. i just read them.

This part reminds me quite a lot about some criticism I have heard in the past regarding ZUN writing. It was about the fact that stories feel stagnant, and that instead of a land and its inhabitants evolving and changing through time, it ends up becoming more of a "trivia-churning machine", as if being a collection of "oh, by the way...". I am not sure how much it applied to all written works, but I did feel it a little bit while reading Forbidden Scollery with how much mythology and Japanese culture references ZUN tried to shove in at every corner. That does not detract though from the fact I really enjoyed reading that series. 

 

On 1/18/2023 at 9:24 PM, Drunken_Flower said:

tbh no
i stopped few paragraphs under the video

Thank you for the honesty. Next time when I have multiple text chunks like that, I was thinking of something. Would it work if I put the original paragraph in spoiler, and write a TL;DR version below? That way, one could get the main idea out of the text, and can get to the original as well if they actually intend to read the whole text. 

 

On 1/18/2023 at 11:27 PM, buskerdog said:

"Everywhere?"

Japan is full of cute marketable mascots and iconography, but you don't find material appealing to the otaku audience "everywhere" on the streets; unless you are in a specific district for it in a very large city, like Akihabara in Tokyo.

Honestly, I think I may have held this as a big misconception when I am thinking of modern Japan and the spread of media/exposure. The first image that comes to my mind is indeed the of Akihabara from Tokyo, but somehow my brain ended up turning it into a generalization instead of an exception/rare case. 

 

On 1/18/2023 at 11:27 PM, buskerdog said:

For the Japanese, I think it's best to think of anime/manga as something like their equivalent to say, the film industry in America. For example, over there (and here in England for that matter) you're going to find a fairly significant number of people who are big fans of the MCU, and you're also going to find an equally significant number of people who don't really give a shit.

Oh, I think that actually makes for a very good, and easy to understand analogy. Again, the problem comes from my (sometimes faulty) thinking, when I end up generalizing things and applying them to an entire group when it may be more likely the case for just a number of individuals within that group. 

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On 2/2/2023 at 1:31 AM, FiliStradivarius said:

It mostly comes off as style over substance, though considering that living in Japan is very strict and anti-fun, they kinda need that to prevent pulling a Sephiroth and burning down their village to summon Meteor.

Oh, this is actually an interesting point. Would you like to detail it a little more? I feel like I might be again dominated by stereotypes and misinterpretations (you have already seen how much I got wrong about the media coverage and general interest in Japan for anime), so any bit of explanation is actually useful. 

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