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To fanon, or not to fanon?


CountVonNumenor

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This is a question I have come up with after reading a long discussion on the classic "canon vs fanon" question regarding some of the depictions fans have come up with through time. And this time, instead of having me write a long text, I will instead allow for the original discussion to unfold in front of your eyes, reproduced with everything except the names of the users (conveniently renamed "User A/B/C/etc"). 

Therefore, let's get into the topic itself:
 

Spoiler

User A: Touhou fans when they have to stick to the canon material (they can't say Meiling is lazy or Eiki is a shortstack)
 

User B: Well, being Honest is good ain't it?
 

User A: User B, All of these fanon characteristics were funny, but only at the very beginning.  Meiling is a badass martial artist who CAN and WILL kick your ass, yet people treat her as a useless sack of shit. Cirno being "the smartest" or "the strongest" pisses me off to no end in sight. Yuyuko being a gluttonous fuck is old. Shortstack Eiki is an insult. And many more that I don't feel like mentioning.  (Not so) honorable mentions to the men in hentai doujins, because they can literally hypnotize or trick Touhou girls into doing sexual stuff, when, in reality, the girls have the ability to kill the fat bastards and tear their insides apart INSTANTLY.
 

User C: User A, Touhou got as big as it is by those "stupid fan characteristics". It used to be like 95% fanon, 5% canon. I dont know how much more canon there is these days, and frankly i dont care. What i always loved about the franchise is that everyone got their own little version of Gensokyo as their headcanon and that's that. Complaining about a lack of sensible plot in a "thinbook" is akin to complaining about lack of acurate newtonian physics in a science fantasy novel. 
 

User D: User A, yep no way those guys can beat the girls dude also im not very smart or informative with Touhou since i skip every dialogue doesn't read any of the "books ,but i think the girls resisted the insanity or something from the fake moon? In imperishable night pls don't roast me i dont have a good memory.
 

User A: User C, Everyone can have their own headcanon, yes, but when they're passing shit as the utmost truth and as canon, that's where I draw the line. Let me give you an example, Koishi. In canon, Koishi is just a lonely girl that wants someone to play with. What did the fanon do? Turn her into a murderer with KKHTA. If it was just a little thought on a random someone's mind, I could forgive that, but it got so popular, people now think Koishi being a murderer is canon, when it's not. They literally changed CANON MATERIAL (although sometimes indirectly) because they felt like their headcanons were better, or just because people popularized shit for some ungodly reason. Yuyuko being slightly gluttonous IS mentioned in the canon, but fans basically turned it into Kirby levels of hunger. You and the other people who deny that the fanon is becoming cancerous with how they portray characters, assuming that "what they think the character does is what actually happens in the series" are the problem here. Get over yourself.

AND ANOTHER THING TO MENTION is the point of a headcanon, which I doubt you understand. Canon means something that is of genuine importance to the plot of a specific media, something that actually happened in the timeline and is important to its development.  A headcanon is you making stories in your mind that, for your own perception of said media, COULD be considered relevant to the plot and timeline. But this only works in the concept of, for example, AUs. You CANNOT pass a headcanon as true, because the information wasn't given by the official creators/directors of that specific media, or anyone else that DOES have permission to determine whether or not something is, again, relevant to the plot AND timeline. A headcanon is NOT the official information of the media UNLESS specified otherwise by those with the rights to say if it is, or if it is not.
Tl;dr: Canon: official information that is relevant to the media and shapes its continuity. Headcanon: stories and scenarios made by fans that somewhat work in the form of AUs, but are NOT relevant to the original work, UNLESS stated otherwise.
 

User E: User A, Thank you thank you THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!  Finally someone sane here, i honestly agree with everything you say especially the last part which is beyond insulting and brings out how sexist mucho of the fandom sadly is.
 

User C: User A, what would i need to get over myself with lmao? I'm not the one getting upset over other people interpreting material as they enjoy it. its literally non of your business. You honestly sit there typing all that shit up thinking that you are the arbiter of what can and cannot be fanonized when the actual creator of the franchise, the one person that could actually make a comment on the subject as its his intelectual property that's getting bastardized, does not given the singelest of shits and last i checked even tacitly endorsed it so long as its not blatant cash-grabs or created purely for monetary gain without any regards to the fandom. If that version of Koishi got popularized and completely overshadowed her actual canon - which by the way i can just say anecdotally speaking for myself, it absolutely didn't and this is the first i hear of an 'epidemic misrepresentation of her character to the point people think its actual canon', but then again, i havent really followed discourses about the franchise since about UFO - then evidently that version of her was a more compelling character and makes her more popular then she would ordinarily be.  I repeat myself. the reason diper-heads are as popular as they are is because the fandom has this insane amount of artistic licence. You dont get to chastise people for likening what they like, its non of your business.  If someone really cares about the pure and unaltered canon, nothing stops them from exploring that and i am by no means shaming you for wanting to enjoy the franchise as you see it was intended. but if someone explored it and decides "man but i liked my yandere waifu more", leave them the fuck alone. if someone doesn't care to explore it because they like their headcanon as it, leave them the fuck alone. If you want more fanworks created, more in the spirit of what you had in mind: go right ahead and create. Thanks for making assumptions about my capacity to understand basic English. You're missing the point entirely and nothing you said in this entire segment has anything to do with what i said, or contradicts it in any way. 


Edit as an afterthought because i somehow managed to forget to mention it: everyone fucking knows that fanworks are fanworks - you know, like the name implies - and not canon. No one's trying to pass of anything as canon, unless they are actually unaware of it, in which case, if they confront you with it in a discussion regarding canon (or in an attempt to establish a common ground for both your interpretations, but i have a feeling you have next to no interest in that, feel free to correct me), feel free to elucidate them, more power to you, but otherwise, mind your own business.
 

User D: Wow this comment thread is starting to reach toxicity level's as high as damage in Terraria.
 

User A: User C, like you just did, I'll repeat myself and say that a bunch of these people really do believe that their headcanons are actual original material. Not all of them think like that, but a good chunk of the community does. Honestly, I couldn't give two shits if AT THE VERY LEAST, different people had different perceptions of their characters. I'm not saying every person should think differently, but at least more than just two, or at the very maximum, three perceptions of the characters. But I don't think the fandom constantly showing only one headcanon aspect, or characteristic for these characters is really "each individual's own, or at least, slightly different view of them", is it? Instead of being a creative pot of ideas where everyone can enjoy making up stories and headcanons about how their favorite characters act and behave in their own minds, which I WILL admit, is actually fun, it's a deep fucking pit filled with a hot, bubbling stew of crap that's the fanon portraying the characters with only two or three personalities max, most of which are just downright disrespectful to the characters themselves, instead of just harmless fun, like it should have been. If people are allowed to enjoy portraying the characters the way they want, then I'm also allowed to criticize them if what they're doing is just disrespecting and bastardizing the characters.
 

User C: User A, in regards to people believing their headcanon to be true canon: refer to my response to your second answer. That's down to ignorance and if it comes up, buy all means, feel free to elucidate them. In regards to "diversity of depicted traits": again, i cant speak for how it is now because i have no idea how much original work has been released. back in the day, there was EXTREAMLY little to go off of in the first place. a lot of the things that stuck are blown out of proportion references to single text bubbles, in part because the character didn't really have any more information about them other then the little dialogue in the game.  A most extreme example of this would be Koakuma (and i hope im not confusing her with another midstage boss, my love for the franchise is big, but its getting close to a decade since i last cared to inform myself). She literally didn't even have a name. The entire character, other then general appearance from the in-game stage model and general existence, has been willed into canon by the fandom. Including her name. If you wanna make an argument about the Touhou fandom become toxic. Well no shit, that tends to happen if something becomes more mainstream. What i take issue with is that you appear to be completely oblivious to the circumstance that you are adding to that toxicity by making proclamations of arbitrations of what other people can or cannot do with their fanworks, even going as far as saying their imagination is disrespectful to the characters. Let's take the thinbooks as an example: is their plot in 99% of the cases complete bogus? yea, sure. im pretty sure the author wouldn't disagree lol. Now why was the work created? surely it was because the autor hated the franchise and had 100 hours to spend on drawing a character they hate, just to piss you off and be "downright disrespectful" }:=) Nah, that doesn't sound right. fanworks are created for their love of the franchise, or character no matter how taste - or distasteful you personally may find them. ZUN gave the people a nearly blank canvas and the Fans ran with it. once they ran out of canvas,  they painted on the floor and walls.  What you are effectively doing is exactly the opposite. you essentially wanna restrict what people see in the characters to what you feel is appropriate and that is simply not how the fandom EVER functioned. My favorite character is Youmu (I liked her before she was cool, shut up). There is a metric fuckton of fanworks i dont like. Solution: I dont consume them. I am not entitled to other people creating fanworks according to my tastes.
 

User A: Since I could be doing actual productive stuff here (although I'll still stick with my opinions), I'll just ask you a question, after a brief explanation. Yes, I do agree that people are free to make their own fanworks. That's the beauty of the Touhou community.  A lot of people show to have good potential in thinking of actually creative, fun, and inventive ways to portray their favorite character(s) as. Giving them unique traits, characteristics, and a good personality, even if it's not canon material. Even I will admit that it's fun to think of your favorite character(s) in alternate scenarios with alternate personalities and traits. I am aware of that, and I do not doubt this information.  The question is, why aren't people doing it then? The fanon established, like, two or three characteristics for most characters. Some serious, some just plain bastardizing. Think of how fun it would be with all of these different ideas and perceptions of these characters in place! Wouldn't it be fun? I think it would. But instead of doing that, they accept these characteristics or personalities as their true selves, which are not. Instead of showing any effort to try and portray these headcanons in a different manner, they jump onto the train and follow the damn thing all the way until last stop. The fanon HAS shown the ability to portray these characters in creative ways, scenarios and with good traits and personalities. So, why aren't they doing it? You can't tell me they're doing "whatever they want", because that's false. They're not doing what THEY want, they're doing what the FANON wants them to do. Don't get me wrong, I do agree with some of your thoughts, but that's a question that I REALLY do want an answer for.
 

User C: User A, as always, correct me if im wrong, but thats more two questions is it not? One being: "Why do people depict characters in a fanonized interpretation that (depending on character) might not align with available canon", and the other being "How did these interpretations came to be so popular to begin with?" The answer to the first is fairly obvious, people enjoy them. Theres realy not anything more to it. People enjoy what they enjoy and that is non of anyone elses business. You might think "⑨=the strongest" is old, I find the popular trope of her character quite enjoyable to this date and ill just make an attempt to list a view interpretations of that that i have witnessed in my time:
- Being a hopelessly overconfident idiot that actually believes she is the strongest
- Her being revered by her fairy gang for being the strongest and that egging her on to actually think about herself that way
- Her fairy gang being fully aware she is a moron and will believe them if they tell her she's the strongest and essentially gaslighting her into that state of mind for shits and giggles
- Her being an idiot that thinks she's the strongest, obviously isn't, but displaying an impressive strength **of character**, giving credence to the title in a way she probably doesn't understand herself, but Daiyousei does.
... the list is long.

I will repeat though: I have retreated from online discourses about Touhou years ago and I experience Gensokyo though my own interpretation, rather then being lambasted with regurgitated memes, so i suppose i get how one could get annoyed by an overused "hahaxd" thing. Completely overdone joke, boring, I sleep. Move on. The other question is a bit harder to answer and i dont think there is one universal one. I cant speak for the new characters at all. For the older ones, i kinda talked about that already. I would suspect that a lot of the traits that solidified their place in the fanon did so before more canon work to the character existed and then continued to stick around regardless because the concept was very well established already. In other cases i would guess it just comes down to tradition that is sort of unique to the fandom based on those early years where there was very little information available and some interpretation or the other garnered big popularity despite that not quite aligning with canon material that would be available, purely because it was entertaining and then stuck around.
 

User A: User C, As much as there are some fanon interpretations that I feel like mock the characters (although sometimes in a humorous manner), I can understand your point.
 

User C: I don't mean to secure the last word or anything, id just like to leave you with this just because its sort of related to the original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zryr7eUgjrEThese numbers are flipped deliberately for illustrative purposes. Headcanon as you rightly established is an extension of the Canon, so the first interpretations that make it into the fandom are mostly headcanon. The Fanon then is a conglomeration of the Headcanons most people seemed to have agreed upon (this happens pretty much by natural selection) and hence create a collective base on which other people then expand further again. So then 'headcanon' of people in the fandom is created based on or at least influenced by the fanon, which was initially based on headcanon. Its not unlike a very short round of Chinese Whispers. I would suspect that you find a correlation between how much canon material is available (at time of character release) and how far the Fanon ends up diverting from the Canon. The more Canon there is, the Less creation of headcanon is necessary to build a basis for the character to exist within the Fanon.

[...]

User F (I said I will not use the real names of the users, but "Totally Alpharius" is too good of a name when associated with the image of the Primarch of the 20th Space Marine Legion): Ah, the eternal battle between canon purists and fanon enjoyers. As old as time itself. Reminds me of why I don't frequent any Touhou forums or Discord servers anymore.

[...]

User G: User A ...dude, as someone who's been a part of this fandom for 10 years, aware of it for 13 and that had huge issues with these stupid fanon interpretations even way back in the day, I still think you need to majorly chill out. This is coming from someone who has Meiling as a huge contender for their favourite character of all time.  It's really not the end of the world and it really does seem like over time, the more stupid fanon interpretations are slowly but absolutely surely being weeded out. You really don't see pad jokes about Sakuya anymore, virtually nobody thinks of KHTA when they see Koishi nowadays (heck, the "vicious merciless invincible killer" archetype used to be applied to virtually every single character the fanon could get away with, nowadays those are really niche interpretations at best)... stuff absolutely used to be much worse.  Even for the fanon stereotypes that are still alive and well, I feel like they're far less mean spirited than they used to be.
 

[relevant discussion ends here]

I will let everyone get their own conclusions from here, then we can come up with the discussion. From my brief re-reading of the discussion of the thread, it seems to be, just like Alpharius noted, a discussion between a canon purist and a fanon person. But the question is actually very good. Where do things go too far when it comes to fan interpretation. And how toxic can be the fanon interpretation for the image left by a character for posterity? Quite a few interesting things if you stay to think about them. I hope this thread will get a bit of traction here at the Shrine, especially since recently there has been a little bit of resurge in activity and people discussing things. So why not use the chance and come up with a thread I was planning for a little while.

(even if very long and filled with essays, I definitely recommend reading the material in spoiler - that's just where the extract is, and the base to start the talk on)

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I'm honestly kind of on both sides.

I do want people to remember what the canon is, but also some fanon is some of my favorite interpetations of the characters ever, and I guess it all boils down to what the person thinks.

The fanon that bugs me the most is Flan and Koishi, with them being portrayed as psychos. Sure, it died down now, but I remember it still being a thing when I joined the fandom back in 2016. I also hate the Alice fanon, with her being my favorite character and all. Yes, she is a bit cold and indifferent to humans in the canon, but don't make her a damn yandere or a r*pist for fucks sake.

The type of fanon I like, however, is when they make some characters that seem evil or cold, have a warm side. I guess the Yuuka scene, with her making a flower crown for Cirno is fanon, but goddamn, I love that scene so much, it really subverts the expectations since Yuuka is seen as a cold, troll-y youkai in canon. I love fanworks that depict her having a warmer side as well.

I remember finding out that the Yakumos aren't actually that wholesome as I thought. Basically I thought that Yukari cared for Ran and Chen, but it turns out she sees Ran as nothing more than a computer, and when I learned that... I was honestly heartbroken lmao, she even hits Ran with her umbrella sometimes...
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1051310405198290967/1054533825516028074/040BAiJRYukari.png

(yes, this is official material)

So yeah, fanon can definitely mix with the canon. I do actually hate some of the character BECUAUSE of their fanon.
Koishi is a prime example of this, I got so used to seeing her as a psycho killer (Qu'est-ce que c'est? Fa-fa-fa-fa, fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-far better Run, run, run, run, run, run, run away~)  that I keep forgetting how genuinely sad her backstory is, and how... normal she appears in SA EX stage. And when I DO remember that she is like that, I don't hate her.
Sanae too, to a degree. She seems like someone who I'd be friends with in canon, while in fanon, she is just annoying, and used mostly in NSFW stuff.

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Number 1 Alice, Meiling and Youmu fan! jaooooooooo

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Well, that debate with the Users was definitely interesting. I don't agree with a lot of fanon depictions myself, but User G feels more reasonable compared to User A and E. Personally, I think there's nothing wrong with having your own interpretations of the characters, as long as you're willing to accept the canon material exists and it isn't extreme. Seeing different sides of a character in artwork, fan games or other content can be really nice and it's what makes the touhou community interesting! I'll always believe that Koshi is just a cute yokai though, instead of some psychotic murder with a knife.

Edited by Isaac
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I'm okay with Fanon as long as it doesn't disrespect the characters, and also draw from what's in Canon and not just made up for the sake of humor or shock value.

The only times I'd lean towards ignoring Canon are in really dumb cases like Wriggle Nightbug, where she Canonically doesn't retain "unimportant" information (Source: Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red). That's stupid and stunts any sort of character development, so nope.

Fanon can be pretty important for breathing life into characters who have absolutely nothing, though.

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There's a place for everything. None of it bothers me, and bad characterization happens with any large fanbase. The "bad" stuff is shitpost material. Cookie⭐ is the epitome of this. Bomber Grape is another example. Well written doujins like The Gensokyo of Humans are what keeps the higher echelons of people inside the Touhou sphere. Both are appreciated. If anything, middling work is the boat anchor here. It's not funny enough in any capacity, nor is it insightful. It's just there. It uses Touhou characters. I could've read any Amazon special self published fantasy novel and felt about the same.

Canon works are to be read understanding that the contents are (usually) from the perspective of another character and that serves as a layer of obfuscation. The biggest issue with any canon purist is when they have an incomplete understanding of the characters (and Touhou in general). Moments like Mystia's punk rock band or Yukari's comment about making a deal with Eientei in Grimoire of Usami are far more useful than constant power level discussions stemming largely from a few lines in earlier titles. They also fail to understand ZUN is drunk 24/7 and ZUN does not neccessarily think like you do. There is no common sense. User A is unironically the reason why Gensokyo exists as it does today.

My little nephew calls me the Most Dangerous Man in Town. Either he's an empath and I am blissfully unaware of my inner demons or maybe it's because he's a small child that gets scared easily? It could be both. And I can play off both of them. And they both may be the truth - hey wait, Touhou touches on this subject... Even in real life, I have to deal with the consequences of how people view me. My best friend's wife hates my guts. I'm dumb and a basement dweller. Other people see me as the smartest man they've ever seen. Some assume I am broke because the car they see driven is a rust bucket. Others ask me for financial help/advice and assume I've got millions in the bank. All of these stories, made from various peoples inside their own little reality... Sounds like the beginnings of a yokai to me.

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That is the question that got in my mind the past month.

Originally, I was "anti-fanon". I only saw it as the way for Touhou fans to shred character's personality to bits. Considering that those fanon memes are also way more popular than everything canon has established, it's obvious that they wont leave any time soon.

But recently, I started to realise why is fanon more popular than canon (other than the fact that a good portion of people in the fanbase didn't even play the games). The more I read through canon (especially through the mangas), the more I realised that canon is confusing or just straight up boring, even. I know, I know. Storytelling isn't ZUN's aim at all, but sometimes I feel like he wants us to not follow his canon rules.

But when we have the flanderised fanon and the convoluted canon, which one should we even pick? Maybe a middle road would be the best option?

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11 hours ago, sodaodaoda said:

The fanon that bugs me the most is Flan and Koishi, with them being portrayed as psychos. Sure, it died down now, but I remember it still being a thing when I joined the fandom back in 2016.

The whole "Flandre is completely insane" thing is mostly a remnant from a time where a good chunk of the western fanbase thought that it was actually just how she acted. Someone not deeply familiar with Touhou or how the doujin scene works in general would see:

  • Old Japanese fan songs like Who killed U.N.Owen, End of Blooming Insanity, and that one Nanahira song which greatly accentuate her eccentricities in different ways
  • All the edgy fanart
  • Her original character profile which describes her as "a little nutty"

And just call it a day. Honestly can't even blame them much for it, but I am glad that her recent appearance in 17.5 helped cement that while she's certainly very energetic and mischievous, she isn't mindlessly violent.

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1 hour ago, ACE_DEUCE said:

And just call it a day. Honestly can't even blame them much for it, but I am glad that her recent appearance in 17.5 helped cement that while she's certainly very energetic and mischievous, she isn't mindlessly violent.

And then Cheating Detective Satori happened... Not that CDS didn't make a few other controversial takes as well, which only sparked discussion in regards to how some characters are acting canonically (particular example coming to my mind being Reisen, who everyone says that CDS turned into a masochist). 

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37 minutes ago, CountVonNumenor said:

And then Cheating Detective Satori happened... Not that CDS didn't make a few other controversial takes as well, which only sparked discussion in regards to how some characters are acting canonically (particular example coming to my mind being Reisen, who everyone says that CDS turned into a masochist). 

While CDS is a huge mess, Flandre actually acted rather appropriately given the situation in my opinion. All she saw was the malice and killing intent emanating from the possessed Meiling which led her to launch a preemptive strike. The reason she did it so gleefully was that she considered Meiling an enemy at that point, and her enjoyment of battle is fairly consistent with her canon personality.

As for the Reisen thing, I think that's been a meme for a while. I don't remember where it comes from, but I do remember it being a running gag in the Inaba manga. The joke in CDS about the "punishment room" in the Lunar Capital is somewhat ambiguous because it's not clear whether Reisen was the one receiving or dishing out the punishment (given the context of the joke).

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In the fandom, this is a very controversial topic but at the same time very touched, it seems to me that it is a complicated topic to address because it depends a lot on the situation, the context among other factors, because despite the fact that it is a purist of the canon , I usually resort to making my own fanon (whether in designs, character attitudes or their backgrounds) in order to expand the Touhou universe in a certain way and use all that material created based on the canon, for my own projects, for example , a Touhou fangame whose goal is that at the lore level, everything has a complete restructuring.

But leaving that aside, really if I had to give an honest opinion on this topic, it would be something that can be perfectly exemplified with what I said above:

The fanon can be put to good use if it is a complement, rather than a flanderization that puts you before others, even newcomers to the fandom of the franchise, thus causing them to have the wrong idea of what Touhou is like. franchise and so only use it as shitpost material or, failing that, m*sturb*tion material.

That everyone thinks as they want, yes, but that does not limit that this is my most honest and sincere opinion. The Touhou canon is not IMPOSSIBLE to understand as many paint it, and what's more, I think that many, when understanding it, believe that they have to understand absolutely all Japanese mythology and know all the youkai there is. When this I recommend it rather if you want to make a fanon or if you want to use Touhou as a tool to facilitate the study of Japanese mythology. because honestly, the Touhou canon is not something that requires a lot of science to be able to "understand" it, obviously if you want to understand it in its entirety, then go to the branch that I mentioned, but if you want to know the main and important thing, with play the games and pay the occasional visit to the wiki and whoever it is has more than enough. So saying that "the canon is difficult to understand" is a cheap excuse that many use to justify that in his fanon Reimu is a r*cist who shoots first and asks questions later, that she always has a poker face and wants to f*ck to Marisa in secret.

Anyway, my respects to all those who do not flanderize the characters with their stupidest characteristics or even with characteristics that they don't even have, and instead simply use the fanon as a complement to the canon to make this beautiful franchise more interesting

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For me, both are right in some points

Like one of them said "if someone wanna see canon material, they can just search for it", surely searching for CANON material in the FANDOM won't have results. And btw, what's the problem if someone misunderstand Touhou canon? It's basically their problem, they just need to search more for it, like, for me i used to see Koishi exactly as how she is in KKHTA, but then i just searched for information about her and everything changed in literally 1 Google search

The point is, the way someone think of Touhou isn't what defines the whole thing, if it was, any opinion of a character like Sanae being a bitch would be 100% canon and everyone would think of it like that. If you search for serious Touhou channels like Suwawako, you'll find both canon and fanon content portrayed without affecting anything, but if you look for something like Ciryes animations to understand Touhou, you'll only see fanon stuff and then it's your problem at all

But well, the point i agree with User A is mostly about the hentai doujins and that stuff, because different to the other fanon stuff that makes Touhou community more interesting and funny, those doujins literally just destroy the image of Touhou, like they also do with Genshin Impact and several other content that starts attracting more and more weirdos

Like, before joining the community, i thought of Touhou as a game for weirdos that like to fap to little girls, just like a lot of other people think exactly because of those disgusting doujins, and it does affect negatively the community because all Touhou players will be seen as pedos or perverted people in general, different to the fanon stuff that will just show that the community is very creative with their headcanons

It is a problem if someone use the fandom to understand Touhou canon lore, but then this problem is of the person that searched for it, isn't like a fan animation of Reimu begging for money, Koishi being a psycho or Cirno being a math teacher will affect the official Touhou wiki and the official Touhou games

If someone is interested into official Touhou, this person can just search for it, the same goes to the fanon, anyone can just search for the fanon instead of the canon, that's what they want and that's it, nobody has the obligation of understanding canon Touhou to like the fanon Touhou, we're in the internet, you can just search for whatever you want and canon is included into it, isn't like we're in the medieval era where the fanon Touhou books would dominate the libraries and less people would know the canon Touhou

Like, any community is like that, Touhou isn't the only one with a rich fandom, several other series has it and if someone has interest into the original, they just see the original into the canon wikis and official games

Sorry if i said anything wrong btw!

R.gif.675558ef97c406a179f3e6f2ea771110.gif

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y'know, sometimes I wonder about the potential of a story about 2hus actually getting in contact with the Touhou fandom... in all its inglory. Although it could get pretty sad fast; imagine Marisa getting completely terrified of all the creeps.

What I say - fanon can't be stopped, people are going to have fun with the setting and characters in any and all ways possible. No way around it. No use screaming at the clouds.

The thing to do is to be stern with correcting people when it comes to mixing up fanon with canon facts.

And one simple factoid: "The canon games are completely SFW."

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I really want to be able to empathize with User A. Like, I get it. There's definitely a lot of stuff in the Touhou fanon that I don't like. I don't like self-insert-posting, don't like horny-posting, and I want nothing to do with the 18+ material. I make no effort to hide my disdain for them. But it's just like User C says; I'm not obligated to consume fan material that goes against my headcanon, nor do I have to accept parts of the fanon that I don't agree with. I have the power and the agency to make that choice, unlike canon where I don't get any say in the matter. It's one of the reasons I believe that fanon is more important than canon when it comes to enjoying Touhou.

On the matter of flanderization, I might be the odd one out for saying it, but I think flanderization has done more good for Touhou as a brand than bad. Touhou's pride and joy is the enormous ensemble of characters that are incredibly easy to recognize. If you ask me, the whole reason why they're so identifiable is because, thanks to these very condensed fanon personalities, you can know exactly who these characters are and what they're all about in just a few words. I don't need to read a college dissertation on the intricacies behind Cirno's personality because "the funny dumbass 9-head fairy" already gives me all the information I need to understand any piece of media she's in.
Sure, flanderization simplifies the characters, but keeping things simple is the best way to get new people involved. No one wants to get started in a fandom by reading your thesis paper. They want something easy to follow, and if it catches their interest, they'll dig deeper on their own. If someone mistakes a shallow fanon interpretation of a character as canon, it seems pretty clear that they weren't that interested to begin with. And that's fine. It's fine to be a casual fan of Touhou content.

Over the last year, I've gone through a lot of Touhou content, official and fanmade, and I've reached a conclusion on this franchise.

Touhou is silly.

This is a silly franchise staring goofy girls going on wacky adventures where they solve all their problems with magic dodgeball matches.
There's seriously nothing here worth there being such a toxic debate over. I genuinely don't understand how the discussion in Count's post got so heated. It makes no sense to me.

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Shanghai Doll knows what you've done.  162257545___alice_margatroid_and_shanghai_doll_touhou_drawn_by_nekoguruma__abeeeaa945645f8ecfdbbe81a2857a13(5).jpg.6da63ce849c93f73625172cb4a291f2a.jpg  I hope you're proud of yourself.

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I guess that it’s too bad that sometimes, fans only stay in the fanon zone because, looking into the canon stuff can be pretty interesting and could give more idea for the fans. Like, the interesting fact that in the canon Touhou, Ran, Letty and Yuyuko are supposed to look younger than Sakuya and Yukari : it could give a different perspective to the fan stories…

Anyway, I forgot to explain why I think it’s a sad thing to stay in the same fan content zone : Medicine Melancholy have no role in the fanon so everybody don’t care about her but I’m sure that she could be an interesting character if Touhou fans would take a look on her backstory, personality, role and bla bla bla 🥲 Also, everyone don’t care about why Wriggle Nightbug was supposed to be in Th12.3 or why Sakuya and Eirin are already very familiar to each other, I’m sure once again that it could be more interesting and original 😔

 

ZUN has given his own point of view about the subject in an interview by Nae Radio (September 2009). He thinks that what we can find in fanon should already and mostly be in the original work, after he said something that was completely inaudible and listed how a detail can become a whole joke/trait in fanon as  « The money-grubbing Reimu originated from her talking about donations in IaMP, China is also based in the manual. It said she is "Chinese-style" [or "China style"]. ⑨ is also from PoFV's manual... »

 

(I wrote it as fast as I can so sorry for the mistake, once again 😅)

Edited by Nekofire
I’ve corrected some mistakes
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Hello again everyone,

I have been AWOL for a couple days from the Shrine due to personal reasons and unfinished business, but now I can finally come back into the game and discuss everything going on in here. So, where do we start from...

 

On 12/20/2022 at 1:26 AM, sodaodaoda said:

Sanae too, to a degree. She seems like someone who I'd be friends with in canon, while in fanon, she is just annoying, and used mostly in NSFW stuff.

For this one, I would probably put some of the blame on the infamous "Cold Wind but Warm Winter" doujin. From there, we got the famous "Sanae is a good girl" line. To quote the Touhou wiki on it:

Quote

"Sanae is a good girl" has surfaced as a meme, in the English speaking community, as a result of page 29 from one of Happy Flame Time's comics, entitled Cold Wind but Warm Winter. The meaning to this could go two ways: it could be speaking in its literal sense, or it could indicate that Sanae's a 'naughty girl' in questionable contents.

2rwx9as.png


Besides, I may think of another cause for that. However, it is a little more mean, since it is related to the famous "ZUN's girlfriend nickname". This description from the same wiki article might actually be even more relavent to why was Sanae treated as she does: 

Quote

Because of Sanae's appearances in numerous titles, many fans in the west have drawn parallels with her to Aya Shameimaru and refer to her as ZUN's "other girlfriend". In addition, since Sanae's often seen as somewhat ditzy and large-chested, as well as the fact that she is strongly associated with both the miko and schoolgirl fetishes, various Japanese fans (including a number of doujin artists) also portray her in a similarly lascivious manner.

Therefore, my little brain would think that fans interpreted both the regular appearances of Sanae and her nickname in a rather lewd connotation. Maybe it is just in my mind, but my guess is that Sanae did... things as some sort of bribe to be added into numerous games and media at the time. Combine that with her coming from the outside world, being close to a goddess/"Living God" (and therefore chance for a perfect/immaculate physique), and you can see why people would like to do what they do. The ancient Greeks and Romans did it with their feminine gods, and now I guess doujin artist took it for these gods of the modern world. 

 

On 12/20/2022 at 1:26 AM, sodaodaoda said:

The type of fanon I like, however, is when they make some characters that seem evil or cold, have a warm side. I guess the Yuuka scene, with her making a flower crown for Cirno is fanon, but goddamn, I love that scene so much, it really subverts the expectations since Yuuka is seen as a cold, troll-y youkai in canon. I love fanworks that depict her having a warmer side as well.

Yuuka has two sides in fanon. Sadistic monster and cute woman. Again, allow me to use the wiki:

Quote

Ultimate Sadistic Creature: Many fans in Japan refer to Yuuka as the "Ultimate Sadistic Creature" (アルティメットサディスティッククリーチャー) or USC for short, often portrayed as being dominant over Alice Margatroid, Wriggle Nightbug, or Tenshi Hinanawi. Yuuka's conversation with Eiki Shiki, Yamaxanadu, where Yuuka admits she likes to "tease" others daily, is sometimes used to speculate that she may be a sadist. In other fanworks, Yuuka is portrayed as an insane and bloodthirsty youkai, who kills with a pleasant smile on her face. Thus, she is commonly called a Do-S (ドS) (where "Do" stands for "dreadnought-class" and "S" normally stands for "sadist"). However, she is also sometimes portrayed as having a soft side, in which case sometimes people joke that the S stands for "shinsetsu" (親切) instead, which means "kindness" or "gentleness."

Youkai Moe: While it was ZUN that coined the term, fans ran with fanart showing Yuuka in states of loveliness and/or moe (due to various factors) and show her with quite a soft if not motherly side to other characters.

From what we can see here, two sides of the coin. You will never know what Yuuka version you are about to meet in that doujin until you open it. Unless we are talking about submissive and breedable version Yuuka, which become obvious from the very cover or first pages of the "thin book of culture" (but that one works for all the 2hus, NO EXCEPTIONS)

 

On 12/20/2022 at 2:20 AM, Eulogous said:

The only times I'd lean towards ignoring Canon are in really dumb cases like Wriggle Nightbug, where she Canonically doesn't retain "unimportant" information (Source: Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red). That's stupid and stunts any sort of character development, so nope.

Fanon can be pretty important for breathing life into characters who have absolutely nothing, though.

Honestly, I cannot call myself a canon purist. I had a phase in which I was leaning towards preferring fanon over canon, then switched 180 degrees for a time. Nowadays, I have kind of a mix of both in my head, using fanon especially for filling some gaps from canon or if I prefer that interpretation of the character (still acknowledging it is fanon, and not canon). Like how for example I like the tall version of Eiki, as depicted by Iganashi1 in their art (oh wait, that one might actually be ambiguously canon; you can never know with how inconsistent official Touhou art is). But that is the general idea. 

 

On 12/20/2022 at 2:56 AM, Empyrean said:

There's a place for everything. None of it bothers me, and bad characterization happens with any large fanbase. The "bad" stuff is shitpost material. Cookie⭐ is the epitome of this. Bomber Grape is another example. Well written doujins like The Gensokyo of Humans are what keeps the higher echelons of people inside the Touhou sphere. Both are appreciated.

I have never really delved into the rabbit whole that is Cookie. But I prefer keeping that thing as separate from Touhou as possible. We don't talk about that here. For Bomber Grape, I have actually read his comics I could find on Mangadex, and really had quite a lot of fun despite how over the top and crude humour can be at times. As for The Gensokyo of Humans, I have actually downloaded that manga last summer. Unfortunately, I did not have the time to get into it yet, but since it features Akyuu (my favorite Touhou character), I really feel like I have to read it at some point. From the brief view I got, the art looks awesome, and can't wait to got through the story itself. It is the first time I am reading a serious Touhou fan manga, so I have high hopes it will be a good read (even though I feel a bit scared about the direct it might be going towards from the brief skimming over it...)

 

On 12/20/2022 at 2:56 AM, Empyrean said:

Canon works are to be read understanding that the contents are (usually) from the perspective of another character and that serves as a layer of obfuscation.

This is exactly on of the reasons why I find Perfect Memento in Strict Sense and Symposium of Post-mysticism to be very interesting reads. Especially since they are written from an in-universe perspective (since those are the writings of Akyuu, a human of the village), you may wonder how much is true out of it, and how much is manipulation. How much is actually real, and how much is in-universe propaganda. Which to me is even more interesting since it connects very nicely into Forbidden Scrollery and some surprises and reveals from Volume 5 (I still have the final two volumes to read, and I can't wait to get through them this winter break). 

I would like to quote the wiki on the following part:

Quote

Akyuu, like the Children of Miare before her, has a flawless memory. Anything she sees or hears is permanently stored in her memory and this power, combined with her consistent reincarnation, makes her a perfect candidate to record a comprehensive account of Gensokyo’s history. However, her flawless recollection applies only to her current life, as she possesses a distinct personality from her predecessors and only possesses fragments of their memories. Of note is that the youkai request Akyuu to describe them as being stronger than they actually are, thus many things may be grossly exaggerated. The descriptions that she writes also contain Akyuu's own monologues and considerations. Thus, one must be aware that they are prone to misconceptions, lack of proper research, or outright lies (not necessarily from Akyuu, but from her sources). However, despite how the contents are written by someone who is not omnipotent, it is still information from someone who sees it as her duty to properly record Gensokyo's history, thus there is likely at least some truth to most of it.

Source: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Hieda_no_Akyuu#Personality

 

On 12/20/2022 at 7:16 AM, AlexandruUnu said:

(other than the fact that a good portion of people in the fanbase didn't even play the games)

General consensus in the community is that anywhere between 75 and 90 per cent of those who declare themselves "Touhou fans" have played the games or even touches any of the officia materials. 

 

On 12/20/2022 at 2:39 PM, ACE_DEUCE said:

While CDS is a huge mess, Flandre actually acted rather appropriately given the situation in my opinion. All she saw was the malice and killing intent emanating from the possessed Meiling which led her to launch a preemptive strike. The reason she did it so gleefully was that she considered Meiling an enemy at that point, and her enjoyment of battle is fairly consistent with her canon personality.

I think you might be the first person I have met saying that. Everyone else I have talked to about the topic seemed to be blinded by anger at the scene with Flandre strangling Meiling, even in the context of Meiling being possessed. Those people still have not forgiven the manga for what it did. But I think it only comes naturally. If you do not like a product, you are much more keen to nitpick everything wrong/you don't like about it, while the opposite happens if you enjoy it - we just put things through the rose-tinted lenses and forget/let slide everything wrong.

 

On 12/20/2022 at 2:39 PM, ACE_DEUCE said:

As for the Reisen thing, I think that's been a meme for a while. I don't remember where it comes from, but I do remember it being a running gag in the Inaba manga. The joke in CDS about the "punishment room" in the Lunar Capital is somewhat ambiguous because it's not clear whether Reisen was the one receiving or dishing out the punishment (given the context of the joke).

People still unironically believe the Inaba manga is canon? I though it was agreed and everyone understood that one is not canon. But yeah, the whole "punishment room" is very questionable even if it had context. And given that moon rabbits are basically slaves for the Lunarians (at least that is how I understood it), I doubt Reisen would have been on the side of those who did the punishment. More like she got punished. Either way, be her the who who got punished or administered the punishment, it still implies the way towards masochism or sadism. Good job, ZUN...

 

On 12/20/2022 at 4:21 PM, ForteTRG said:

The fanon can be put to good use if it is a complement, rather than a flanderization that puts you before others, even newcomers to the fandom of the franchise, thus causing them to have the wrong idea of what Touhou is like. franchise and so only use it as shitpost material or, failing that, m*sturb*tion material.

Trust me, I have met a lot of people online who had no dea what Touhou is. but when showing them an image of the character and the name of the franchise, the managed to recognize it from... hentai doujins. Even if officially Touhou has a lot of adult material in terms of sheer quantity, but way less porn percentage wise on platforms like Pixiv (7% for Touhou compared to 21.5% for Genshin Impact, 26% for Azur Lane or even 44% in the case of Idolmater for example) then more recent series relative to Touhou, but for which such works have ben booming as we are talking about gacha games, waifu collection games and so on that appeal to the neckbeard wish-fulfillment fantasy. And I am very sure Touhou is not really the kind of neckbeard wish-fulfillment series as a whole (doujins not counted).

 

On 12/20/2022 at 4:21 PM, ForteTRG said:

That everyone thinks as they want, yes, but that does not limit that this is my most honest and sincere opinion. The Touhou canon is not IMPOSSIBLE to understand as many paint it, and what's more, I think that many, when understanding it, believe that they have to understand absolutely all Japanese mythology and know all the youkai there is. When this I recommend it rather if you want to make a fanon or if you want to use Touhou as a tool to facilitate the study of Japanese mythology.

Interesting, Touhou has had the effect of making me want to learn about the history, myths and legends that inspired the elements from the series. Right now, I am reading a book on the history of Japan, and I am quite fascinated about the early history of their nation, as each of them has something interesting to explore (not that more recent periods like Sengoku Jidai are less interesting, yet they are those periods which get most mainstream attention, and therefore most of the weebs you do not want to be associated with). Bonus: reading about the Edo period society and its organization sure was an interesting experience, as I first got introduced to it through lectures in college, then I read more on the topic by myself. I also like the Kofun period for its elaborate graves, as well as the association with the Haniwa idols (aka what have us Mayumi in Touhou).

 

On 12/20/2022 at 4:21 PM, ForteTRG said:

she always has a poker face and wants to f*ck to Marisa in secret.

oh boy...

 

On 12/20/2022 at 4:43 PM, _.Mevs said:

But well, the point i agree with User A is mostly about the hentai doujins and that stuff, because different to the other fanon stuff that makes Touhou community more interesting and funny, those doujins literally just destroy the image of Touhou, like they also do with Genshin Impact and several other content that starts attracting more and more weirdos

See one of my points above. I have already mentioned it there, and I could go on for hours. But I already have 3 threads on the topic, so I think that would be enough.

 

On 12/20/2022 at 4:43 PM, _.Mevs said:

Like, before joining the community, i thought of Touhou as a game for weirdos that like to fap to little girls, just like a lot of other people think exactly because of those disgusting doujins, and it does affect negatively the community because all Touhou players will be seen as pedos or perverted people in general, different to the fanon stuff that will just show that the community is very creative with their headcanons

For the love of the Almighty, the quantities of what look like child porn... It is quite scare how much there is, most of it coming from Japan. The anime style of the art (which greatly exaggerates features and makes them more child-like) does not help improving the situation any bit.  

 

On 12/20/2022 at 10:12 PM, adzi said:

And one simple factoid: "The canon games are completely SFW."

Tell that to artists like this one (do not click if you are are not OK with ambiguous situations that may do poorly, to put it mildly). I don't think Eiki would let herself get anything like that. Even if we do not have yet "next part" to see where it is going, I do not really like the direction/implications. But maybe I should just shup up. To quote the original comment of the artist:

Quote

Eiki-sama Being Dragged Away

I fulfilled a Pixiv request.

"I would like to see Shiki Eiki being restrained and led into a dungeon."
Who could've thought something like this would be my first upload to this account in two years?
But eh, back when I was more actively drawing Touhou stuff I already felt Eiki-sama was a great character for this kind of fetish, so honestly I totally get it.
Thank you for the request.

So I'm taking requests, but only if I feel like it.
If I want to do your request I'll do it, but if I don't I won't.

Well, at least he was honest about it...

...unless we are talking this scene from Alternative Facts in Eastern Utopia, but even this one is rather mild (and funny) compared to the average fan's mind (source: AFiEU page 122-123):

AFiEU_122-123.png

Possible a little bit of an inspiration for that one scene from Memories of Phantasm in the idea of "2hus wear their hats when bathing" . (Weird rambling about the existence of canonical underwear in Gensokyo incoming) Touhou has avoided for the most the whole question of clothes worn beneath by our beloved characters. At most, we may have seen bloomers, undershirts, a bra in the case of Urumi or one-piece swimsuits like in Silent Sinner in Blue or the fairies manga. But since top underwear is like Schrodinger's cat in official Touhou art, we will probably never know unless accidents happen. How did I end up even thinking of this? Just a random conversation about Hecatia and her fashion sense. From looking at her, it mau be implied she does not wear a bra under the T-shit. Unless she went for a traditional sarashi, accidents may happen, and we should prepare for unforeseen consequences. (I had to make that reference)

 

On 12/21/2022 at 3:12 AM, SoundOfRayne said:

I don't like self-insert-posting, don't like horny-posting, and I want nothing to do with the 18+ material.

I think I know an artist you may be extremely keen to add to the blacklist. Oh boy, last year there was quite a fuss about that one for a few months as one user posted the (albeit safe for work) images of infamous artist Fusu. Besides his safe-for-work half of the works, his NSFW side goes hard on both the R18 and self-insert side because it is "POV Touhou character has sex with you and tells you how much she loves you". And not just sex, but EXTREMELY EXPLICIT sex (sorry, I had to mention it). And to make it even funnier, Fusu had absolutely forgotten how to draw safe for work images, as he has not uploaded anything safe on his Pixiv page since November 2021 (at least so was last time I checked). 

 

On 12/21/2022 at 3:12 AM, SoundOfRayne said:

I genuinely don't understand how the discussion in Count's post got so heated.

I guess shit happens [shrug]

 

On 12/21/2022 at 10:05 PM, Nekofire said:

Like, the interesting fact that in the canon Touhou, Ran, Letty and Yuyuko are supposed to look younger than Sakuya and Yukari : it could give a different perspective to the fan stories…

Again, tell this to THAT KIND of fans and fanart creators. It is almost as some sort of convention to depict characters like Ran, Letty or Yuyuko as THICC mommies. Do we, Touhou fans, really have a mommy issue, and need to compensate for it somehow?

 

On 12/21/2022 at 10:05 PM, Nekofire said:

ZUN has given his own point of view about the subject in an interview by Nae Radio (September 2009). He thinks that what we can find in fanon should already and mostly be in the original work, after he said something that was completely inaudible and listed how a detail can become a whole joke/trait in fanon as  « The money-grubbing Reimu originated from her talking about donations in IaMP, China is also based in the manual. It said she is "Chinese-style" [or "China style"]. ⑨ is also from PoFV's manual... »

That is how I also like to trat fanon. As a completion of canon, with traits one can interpret from the original works, albeit how ambiguous ZUN lets his characters. Not that it seems as if ZUN has been writing blank, empty characters which he relies on the fans to fill the gaps for him (or at least this seems to be an agreement reached by some of the Touhou communities out there online). 

Edited by CountVonNumenor

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