The reputation of the touhou project games

[potatolover]

Hello, I would like to preface this by apologizing if my post is not up to standards, or if it is in the wrong place, as it is my first time posting here.

Before I decided to try out the touhou games, I noticed that there are 2 vocal opinions on the official touhou games' difficulty.
One of them is that they're pretty easy games for begginers (which is how I discovered this franchise and started playing it, and I am thus biased), while the other opinion is that the touhou games are extremely hard games.

I would like to know what you think of this, as I have very little experience in shoot them ups.
Nonetheless, I will try to bring up a few points.

What I noticed, is that most people who say the games are "hard" are people that never(or barely) had any exposure to shoot them ups before.
I've seen a lot of people try to apply their game habits from other genres (most notably first/third person shooter games) to shoot them ups, which often results in people misunderstanding how to play such games (a common example is people strafing quickly like they would in a first person shooter)
Thus, this leads me to believe that maybe the touhou games are simply considered "hard" because of a "lack of exposure" to this genre, as shoot them ups are now considered a niche genre.

On the other hand, I also noticed that people that have played a lot of shmups tend to say touhou is "easy", and try to steer away from them, which may be somewhat biased as they are very used to this type of genre.
This phenomenon will happen with everything, if someone is experienced in something, they will think the average knowledge/abilities of other people are higher than they actually are, as some things that are now second nature for them, still aren't known by most people.

Some other argument I see used by people saying "touhou is very hard", is that "the patterns are denser"
Despite being true, something else to keep in mind is, that, in touhou, your hurtbox is very tiny, and the bullets' hitboxes are smaller than they look.
In other shmups, your hurtbox is usually bigger, and for the few that I have played, your whole ship is your hurtbox, and the bullets' sprite is about the size of their hitbox

Then, there is also the question about scoring, and being competitive about that.
Sadly, I can not comment on this point, as I do not have enough knowledge/skill, nor information from others to comment on this.

By having very little, but still some experience with shmups, I did find touhou to be easier than most shmups, thanks to the visuals that make it easy to see everything, and every sprite having a smaller hitbox/hurtbox than it actually does, making you dodge some stuff without expecting you to do so.
There is also the ressources which I will not comment about, as I have not played enough shmups to see a trend in ressources (the few I have played were either very generous, or gave almost nothing)
But then, there is aslo the ability to memorize a lot of the stages and boss' patterns in touhou, which I find interesting, as I like to think of it as puzzles to solve when you get stuck.
Overall, I wouldn't say the games are too easy, but I wouldn't say that they're that hard either, I just think they are slightly easier than most shmups if you have the time for it.

Unfortunately, I do not have anything else to bring up about this, which is why I would like to hear your opinions and arguments about this topic.
I do hope what I said hasn't caused any confusion, do not hesitate to tell me if it did.

[Wiems]

I think Touhou is hard, but that's because it's the only shmup I play and I stick mostly to turn based rpgs/strategy games that don't require a lot of quick thinking or reflexes by comparison.

[SoundOfRayne]

7 hours ago, potatolover said:

Hello, I would like to preface this by apologizing if my post is not up to standards, or if it is in the wrong place, as it is my first time posting here.

Yo, but imagine Touhou fans having standards, tho...

 

Just calling Touhou a shmup feels disingenuous. There're casual shmups out there. It's like calling Dark Souls a hack 'n slash game. Sure, the mechanics are similar, but the way DS is meant to be experienced is totally different from, say, God of War; that's why we gave it a subgenre. Touhou's a bullet hell. Bullet hell games are designed to be difficult. They put a bunch of stuff on screen and expect players to sort out patterns and bullet paths and how to weave through them. And they need to sort that out quickly, because slipping up will down them in a single hit. Just by the nature of its genre, Touhou is "hard." Calling Touhou "easy" is just... dumb. It's a dumb take. Yes, within the world of bullet hell shmups, I have no doubt that there are many, many other titles more difficult than Touhou. The entire genre is infamous for its difficulty. It's not easy. You're just good. Being "easy" for its genre doesn't mean it's easily accessible for new players. I prefer to say that Touhou is not "casual-friendly."

Like, imagine telling your friends they should invest about 20-or-so hours into a game that only takes 40 minutes to beat. That is effectively the Touhou gaming experience; at least, that was my experience getting through TH7 on Normal mode, and finally closing it out with a 1CC run. Don't get me wrong. It felt good. It felt like a genuine accomplishment, especially knowing that a good deal of Touhou fans don't even bother trying out the games, much less beating them. But 20 hours to dedicate to a single game is a lot of time, and that had to be spread across several weeks. In the same amount of time, I could've played any other game and felt as though I had made substantially more progress through a story or more complex mechanics. I didn't have the slightest chance in hell at convincing my friends that my struggle and achievement was worth replicating.

Touhou is a short game; all the main campaigns can be finished within an hour. The average player's playtime will come from many repeat playthroughs- trying to get further and better save and use their resources. It's very arcade-y in design, and that gives it a very niche appeal. Touhou 18 breaks the mold by giving the shmup aspect a little taste of roguelite seasoning by making the cards you buy throughout the game free options for your starting kit in the next run. Not only do you get some cool build diversity and freedom to play the game how you want, but it gives you a more tangible sense of progression than just "Maybe I'll suck less this time." From a gameplay sense, I think UM is by far the most accessible title in the series for new players.

I don't like the argument that Touhou is "easy," but I kinda understand where it's coming from. Despite being so difficult, the actually mechanics behind most shmups tend to be incredibly simple. "This is bullet. Bullet move. You don't like bullet. Don't touch bullet." But now there's 100+ of them. The requirements for precision go up, but the actual mechanics remain exactly the same. No new moves. No new interactions. The rules at the start of the game are the same as the rules at the end. And for me, I do appreciate that kind of simplicity. I find it therapeutic when I feel overwhelmed by other more complex games.

I do get why Touhou has the reputation it does over other titles, though; It's a gateway series to bullet hells. It has a really big following, and that following means that new people are constantly coming in to see what this franchise is all about. But I'd wager a majority of those new people immediately get turned away by how difficult the experience is and go back to the parts of the fandom they feel more comfortable with. It's a shame. I do think there's a lot of fun to be had with a tough game. I've tried to convince people to give Touhou a chance, and they just turn their noses up to it because "Isn't that the game for masochists?" Oh well. More for me, I guess.

Edited October 28, 2022 by SoundOfRayne

[buskerdog]

The thing about trying to categorise Touhou as easy or hard is that we're talking about a series with 18 core entries + a lot of spinoffs, and counting. The difficulty of these games relative to each other is very diverse, you have games like UM and EoSD on one end of the scale and SA or UFO at the other. So, trying to make an exact statement on Touhou's difficulty is an impossibility, made doubly impossible by the fact that difficulty isn't something that can actually be measured. However, what I can do is break the argument down into smaller points that are common across most if not all core entries and summarise my opinions on why they cause the game to be perceived as hard or not hard. I'll try to avoid retreading points you already covered.

• All stages back to back. Outside of spinoffs and LoLK, there is no "save game" in Touhou. You have to run through the entire thing with a limited room for error, and if that room for error runs out, you start again from the very beginning. People familiar with Shmups are probably used to this; it wouldn't have any impact on whether the game is seen as easier or harder. For people used to having permanent checkpoints though, this undoubtedly makes the game harder as it essentially allows for "backward progression". This can obviously be difficult in the sense that it can feel frustrating and time consuming, but the real tangible element of how this increases difficulty is that it demands mastery of the game through forcing content to be retreaded. You can't win against a boss by a fluke. Something else will kill you later, and then you'll be pushed back to your previous "wall". That wall doesn't crumble until you know exactly how to break it.
• Precision movements. When exactly this happens varies by game, but all of them will eventually at some point force you to evade in such a way that minimalist movements are required. This is a major test of hand-eye coordination and motor skills, as it's not just about how fast you get moving, but how fast you can stop moving as well, coupled with precise timing. The timing issue may not be such a struggle for any players accustomed to games with elements of action, but precision definitely can be. Thankfully, focus mode exists to make micro movements easier. I'm not an expert of any shmups outside Touhou, but I don't think focus is a universal feature of the genre, so for shmup enthusiasts, focus mode is an element that makes Touhou easy.
• Know thy enemy. In Touhou, your offensive power is important, but your defensive skills are moreso. Touhou is ultimately a game about defence. And in order to do that most effectively, you need to actually pay attention to what it is coming at you, since lives can be lost very quickly, and there is no such thing as becoming "tanky". Understanding what enemies do, and how you can manipulate their behaviour to best reduce the risk to you, is key to survival - take "bullet streaming" for example, one of the most simple bullet hell techniques that involves slowly moving while bullets aimed directly at you are shot, so that they clutter less of the screen and don't push you to an edge. The more your reflexes improve, the less you have to rely on this kind of manipulation, but there is always going to be an element of using these strategies. So, players who's go-to approach to combat-centric games is to win with overwhelming offence quickly find themselves is deep water. Of course, Touhou is hardly the only game where you analyse enemy behaviour, but due being a niche genre, it's not necessarily as easy to pick up on - when you fight a big boss in an action game, of course you study the way it moves, attacks, defends, and leaves itself open - it's simple intuition to watch what the big (or small) scary thing is doing. In the context of a bullet hell, however, your first thought probably isn't to consider what angles the bullets are coming at you from.
• Negative feedback loop. I just talked about defence, but offense is also a key element of Touhou. To do high damage and therefore defeat threats faster, you need the resource known as power. Power is usually earned at a fairly slow rate. If you get hit, you lose power. If you lose power, it becomes harder to finish off the thing that just hit you. So then you get hit again, and lose more power along with another life. If you make one slip up in Touhou, it's easy to fall into a negative spiral, this is a challenge for any player to overcome, regardless of experience, but of course the problem is exasperated for newbies. It should be noted, however, that getting hit also refills your stock of bombs AKA spells, which, in contrast, is a comeback mechanic.
• Foresight. When it comes to the series' more difficult patterns, you have to take initiative. You can't simply just "move out the way" of bullets coming towards you, you have to see where the gaps are forming on the screen and get into them before the opportunity closes off. The ability to identify things before they happen and take according initiative will make improve someone's skill at any game, but in Touhou, it becomes a requirement, at least if you want to be able to dodge everything. The existence of bombs can make skipping these hard sections an option, however. Speaking of which...
• Bombs. Bombs, also called spells in more recent titles, are unquestionably an element that makes Touhou easier. You always start with some, and you always get them back if you get hit. They provide invincibility, high burst damage, and bullet destruction. It's a generous resource no matter how you look at it, and an important one, too: after all, this game expects you to dodge a lot of different patterns. Even the drunken madlad ZUN doesn't reasonably expect everyone to be able to dodge everything, which is why he gives you these. And since you only get more if you die with your bombs used up, the system even encourages you to actively use them. People who are really good at bullet hells will find this trivialises the game, but then the simple solution for them is to simply not use them.
• Noob trap: bottom hugging. This last one is more of a sidenote, but it's a habit a lot of new Touhou players fall into. It's easy to think that the bottom of the screen is the safest place to be, because it gives you the most time to react to bullets coming from the top. And for some patterns, the very bottom is legitimately the safest place to be. However, doing it all the time is not good, as staying at the bottom is essentially the same as removing an entire direction is which you can move. So, new players unfortunately can make things harder on themselves by retreating to a comfort zone that is impractical for clearing an entire game.

Well, I dropped many thoughts here so I hope you will find them useful in some way. Like you, I do not play for score and can therefore offer no insight in that regard, except that it is common to hear among Touhou players the opinion that Touhou "is a game you play for score".

[Eulogous]

For me, judging difficulty is a game-by-game basis.

Also, I've played a few older arcade-y shmups before getting into mainline Touhou, so it wasn't a huge issue getting used to how they play initially. I personally think the reputation of Touhou being this extremely hard game is greatly exaggerated, but I can see it being super hard for people not used to the genre.

Honestly it reminds me of how people say Shin Megami Tensei is a brutally punishing series. You get used to it after a while, and suddenly the game seems easy to you. Granted, the series does try to take advantage of your innate gullibility from time to time.

[Ken Hisuag]

Relevant comment from a past thread:

On 7/26/2022 at 10:04 PM, Ken Hisuag said:

Also, "hard" is technically a subjective term (loathe though I am to admit it), referring to the experience a person or group of persons has. There is a degree of consensus to it (thankfully, for the purposes of having a discussion), but it may be beneficial to determine what you consider to be difficult, and (more importantly) why;

On 7/26/2022 at 7:43 AM, buskerdog said:

Video games are ultimately a form of media, like books and music, and their main purpose is to entertain

. . . and as entertainment [serves its] functions in different ways, what is "difficult" will mean something very different according to the situation/context. For example, a "difficult" puzzle game like Baba is You is not directly comparable to a "difficult" run-and-gun platformer like Cuphead; and you may not consider one or either of those "difficult."

I've never felt heavily inclined to play the primary Touhou games, not so much out of difficulty concerns (though my experiences with other curtain fires does indicate a lack of skill), but simply for lack of sufficient motivation. This represents my perspective fairly well:

On 10/27/2022 at 8:24 PM, SoundOfRayne said:

20 hours to dedicate to a single game is a lot of time, and that had to be spread across several weeks. In the same amount of time, I could've played any other game and felt as though I had made substantially more progress through a story or more complex mechanics.