Apparently, people dislike Touhou 17. Why?

[CountVonNumenor]

I am honestly failing to understand the dislike some fans seem to be having for this game. Honestly, I have not played it, but I think some of the ideas within were interesting, and like some of the characters (especially Mayumi).

But I see this game seems to be getting quite a lot of dislike from some parts of the community. Wherever I go, there's at least that one person calling it anything from lame to outright "bad fanfiction" (an expression I have not heard since my days as a Star Wars fan). And this sort of dislike is actually spread to a few other games to. PoFV is often mockingly called "the best Touhou game", while within the Genso Boys at least there seems to be a general hate/dislike for Hidden Stars in Four Seasons.

[Isaac]

Hey again Count! I'm not sure on a lot of reasons why people dislike this game, but WBWC is still one of my favourites.

I thought that using animal spirits and having a roaring mode was fun. It was nice playing as Youmu again as well. Even if some didn't like the gameplay, everything else is great! The direction of the story was interesting and the cast is unique. Yachie, Saki and Mayumi stand out to me a lot and I love hearing their themes often.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Isaac

[Tenkko]

I wouldn't say dislike, I've seen more like from "lukewarm" to "actively like it". Then again, I don't know what you've seen.

[sodaodaoda]

I remember being dissapointed when it came out. I was excited when I saw that the game will take place in Hell, and that it will overall have a darker feel. I immediately downloaded the trial on the day it came out and when I played it it was just.... meh? Idk why, it's like it was forgetabble. I didn't really like the music, and the only song I really listen to now from WBaWC is the stage 6 theme.
Nowadays, I just have a neutral opinion on it, it's okay.

ALSOOOOOoo
When WBaWC got announced, a lot of fake leaks started popping around, with this song being one of 'em

https://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm34985779

 

I remember being so damn disapointed when I realized that it's fake lmfao, it's sounds better than the real title theme imo.

[SasaMisa]

I'd be lying too if I didn't admit to thinking "Meh!" when I first saw this one. Yeah, I remember watching MegamanOmega's playthrough of it, yet not being taken whatsoever by the artstyle, the characters, the music, or the mechanic itself either, which merely seemed like a rehash of the saucers from UFO to me, and just as bloody distracting at the end of the day I'm very sorry to say. (-_-)

Of course, my knowledge on the shooters pretty much peters out after DDC anyway, with me playing TH15 once and TH16 hardly at all (way too difficult for me with my colour blindness, like an explosion in a paint factory). With this in mind, it's probably better to take my opinion with several grains of salt. (^_~)

Edited June 24, 2022 by SasaMisa
Word substitution.

[Gou the frog]

Take me with as much salt you want. 

The thing is these new games, they aren't well received (By some lads) just like UM. I don't know why people dislike them going so far as calling them best or worse Touhou games. It seems that UFO shadow is behind this one.. 

Gameplay wise, some stages drags on and the new mechanic wipes the floor with those bosses. (According to the comments in here and this post: Is it only me or Touhou 17 is reaaally hard ? : touhou (reddit.com) taken 3 years ago) Also have this from a comment section  replies of the extended title theme: 

Spoiler

What? How? It's the 2nd easiest game in the series (easiest is 4), the backgrounds make the bullets hard to see, there's like 2 good songs, the patterns are boring up until stage 5, etc It's very dull. HSiFS however was the best game in the series.

I mean kind of have a point with the background but I'm not so sure about the second easiest game? It might as well be my skill issue.

 

Spoiler

The ost slaps, but the background mixing with the bullet colors sucks, and some stages are just bullet streaming and are repetitive. Extra is kinda meh, but considering ZUN who wanted to make the extra more accessible due to it being plot relevant then i can't blame him.

Truly, but the point is I haven't (can't) play extra so, I can't really support too much of the point here.

 

Music? I can't seem to remember any of 'em nay, I take it back my vote is entirely on Staff Roll don't know why but the only theme that is on the mind of Touhou players is the exclusive stage 6 theme; Indeed, after researching, I assure it's always that one theme that is redeemable? I myself, like most of the themes in 17; no, music is subjective so expect a random review later in this post as this is one of the only things I can do without playing the game itself. (Aye, Mayumi's and the stage 6 one sounds quite similar to Undyne and Mettaton's themes.)

Ending this chapter with lore: Right it's set in hell and what do we got? Another place that is not going to be mentioned again, presumably forgotten like *cough* *cough* the places from that one Pc era.  Also, we got "gangs" who compete with each other for resources and territory; A yakuza connotation feeling if you will. And there comes the leaders who have got vague info much like the god of Hakurei. This might ended up upsetting the veteran lads. So, we done yet? Not yet actually since I've a headcannon for all of you:

Imagine the beast World as one of the places in the 16 lesser hell known as "The Animal Abuser's Hell" and the beasts sprits are going to dominate those human souls who has abused said sprits. And we got the hell setting with Kutaka being one of the gatekeeper of that hell; here is oddly similar yokai chicken from a scroll of Nara. (Hell Scroll) Wiki got almost all the pages (Motly in Japanese: Hell Scroll (Nara National Museum) - Wikipedia)

 

 

After a bit of digging I've found another lad that has the same theory as me but also with more points in this yet again three year old reddit thread: An unpopular opinion about Touhou 17 plot : touhou (reddit.com)

In conclusion: This is not a bad game but it does leave a who is in the right after the events of 17. But at the end of the day, don't let others drag you down for liking a specific game as it will leave out the negativity. So, as yin and yang, fans will appreciate the older games and the news ones sooner or later when that day comes, we shall see our community rise once more to the surface.

 

 

[CountVonNumenor]

5 hours ago, Gou the frog said:

Imagine the beast World as one of the places in the 16 lesser hell known as "The Animal Abuser's Hell" and the beasts sprits are going to dominate those human souls who has abused said sprits. And we got the hell setting with Kutaka being one of the gatekeeper of that hell; here is oddly similar yokai chicken from a scroll of Nara. (Hell Scroll) Wiki got almost all the pages (Motly in Japanese: Hell Scroll (Nara National Museum) - Wikipedia)

Speaking of theories. Last night I was reading quite an interesting analysis of the whole game and it's themes simply started from an analysis of Idolatrize World. T will let you read it if you wish 

Also on an unrelated note. I have seen the flaming chicken. Since you are familiar with Linfamy, is this the same entity as the "flaming cock [bleep included in the original for the joke]" he was talking about in one of the Buddhist hells video?

[Gou the frog]

Truly, that's is some well thought out theory and yes the flaming rooster I called it, is the same entity as Linfamy mentioned. 

[sodaodaoda]

On 6/24/2022 at 12:00 PM, sodaodaoda said:

I remember being dissapointed when it came out. I was excited when I saw that the game will take place in Hell, and that it will overall have a darker feel. I immediately downloaded the trial on the day it came out and when I played it it was just.... meh? Idk why, it's like it was forgetabble. I didn't really like the music, and the only song I really listen to now from WBaWC is the stage 6 theme.
Nowadays, I just have a neutral opinion on it, it's okay.

ALSOOOOOoo
When WBaWC got announced, a lot of fake leaks started popping around, with this song being one of 'em

https://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm34985779

 

I remember being so damn disapointed when I realized that it's fake lmfao, it's sounds better than the real title theme imo.

ALRIGHTY! I played this game again just to see how it is in retrospective (hell, I just finished 1ccing it on easy), and I gotta say.. Not bad!
While I did feel meh about it when it came out I'd be lying if I said stage 6 wasn't cool as shit. Yeah the danmaku may be a bit lackluster but holy hell, the background???? It's amazing! I still feel the same about it as I did 3 years ago.
I like the music more, it's still not the best Touhou OST I listened to, but I do appreciate it more now.
Also, I just adore the city/futuristic/cyber looking feel of stages 5 and 6. It could be just me, since I love that stuff, but hot damn it's some best stuff I've seen in a 2hu game.
Overall it's honestly good. I don't really like the beast mechanic because it's similar to UFO, but hey, at least it's better here than in UFO.
Also,

On 6/25/2022 at 5:57 PM, Gou the frog said:

Gameplay wise, some stages drags on and the new mechanic wipes the floor with those bosses. (According to the comments in here and this post: Is it only me or Touhou 17 is reaaally hard ? : touhou (reddit.com) taken 3 years ago) Also have this from a comment section  replies of the extended title theme: 

  Hide contents

What? How? It's the 2nd easiest game in the series (easiest is 4), the backgrounds make the bullets hard to see, there's like 2 good songs, the patterns are boring up until stage 5, etc It's very dull. HSiFS however was the best game in the series.

I mean kind of have a point with the background but I'm not so sure about the second easiest game? It might as well be my skill issue.

No fuckin' way that this game is the second easiest lmfao, what?
The easiest Touhou games IMO are like, 8 and 7 maybe? And also, patterns boring until stage 5??? Did this person see the Yachie patterns? They're more interesting than anything above stage 5....
Also yeah, the visibility in this game does suck, 16 had a similar problem.

So yeah, in retrospective, it's a damn good 2hu. Not the best IMO, but still good.
Also

HANIPAGANDA GANDA HAHAHA HANIPA HANIPA HANIPANI
MEGHAHDSKJHFKAUEIA HANIWA HANIYASUAHSFHAJKD

[CountVonNumenor]

1 hour ago, sodaodaoda said:

HANIPAGANDA GANDA HAHAHA HANIPA HANIPA HANIPANI
MEGHAHDSKJHFKAUEIA HANIWA HANIYASUAHSFHAJKD

Hanipaganda hijack lol

 

[Cosmic]

WBaWC introduced Saki

Saki is very good

Therefore, WBaWC is also very good

That is all

[Tenkko]

Was just replaying this and figured I'd come back here. UHHH. Yeah the danmaku is a little bit eh, least until stage 4 which has always been the trademark difficulty spike but yknow. Speaking for normal difficulty here btw.

The beast mechanic actually makes the game really hectic if you're not scared to go after them, add Youmu to that and I had a lot of fun. The powerup you get from the spirits I think is the reason people call it one of the easiest games, specially otter that shield is. lol. While I love the grandeur of Keiki that battle is served on a silver platter.

So yeah as for the game part of the game, 's alright. The plot I found interesting too, I'm sure there's more than what I got out of it but I'm not a fan of overanalyzing.

[CountVonNumenor]

Just before starting the thread here, I also submitted it on r/touhou. Here are some of the answers I got there:
 

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I think 17 just has a much darker tone, I mean, even other games bad ending we've never seen Reimu this threatened by someone. In terms of game play tho, I have to admit I am also not a fan of the system, the spirit animals feels too much like UFO and is just not unique enough. Danmaku design in this game definitely peaked Dragon Crest Bullet is so creative and cool I loved it, but not many people can play nor appreciate it.

People can see the surface level, the spirit animal, the darker tone story but can't appreciate the great danmaku design, is what I concluded

 

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It isn't the only one. Touhou 18 UM is also so disliked to the point it is "practically the 2nd worst game in the series".

 

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Very dull first three stages, to the point where you can complete the third stage's stage portion on lunatic entirely pacifist with ease. Much of the game can be trivialised by simply touching a movement button once every second or so. The tokens are annoying and you are forced to bottom hug the last two spells if you are going for a no hyper clear because of how they force the tokens onto you. Also a lot of visibility issues.

 

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Idk imo Touhou 17's first few stages are dull but stage 6 was one of the better stage 6s out there (especially aesthetically + music-wise

 

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I think this mostly goes from gameplay part. WBAWC had pretty uninteresting mechanic, basically UFO+PCB, didn't offer that much of a challenge (for me Kek was the easiest final boss in whole experience, even Chimata fight was more sweaty), and bullets on many stages blended into background too much, leaving overall more annoying experience

 

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If you enjoy something you shouldn’t let what some other people say drag down that enjoyment.

Nevertheless, the main reason is because the gameplay of 17 feels incredibly lacking, especially to veteran players. To make a random comparison, a normal playthrough of Subterannean Animism is like night and day compared to WBaWC in terms of the creativity and variety of attacks you dodge both during the stages and against bosses. It also helps that SA is more challenging and more rewarding to master.

There’s much more to it than this though. WBaWC’s Beast Mode gimmick disrupts the ‘flow’ of dodging and shooting. Whenever you get a Beast Mode power-up you’re effectively invincible for 15 or so seconds (especially if you’re semi-decent at Touhou games), and you get this powerful buff way too easily and way too often for the game to feel like it has any real rhythm or ‘pacing’ (for lack of a better term). The series even has a better and more balanced example of a temporary ‘invincible mode’ in the Cherry Border from PCB, which doesn’t disrupt flow but only enhances it by making it less offensively powerful and letting you affect how quick you get it depending on whether you choose to shoot focused or unfocused shots (a meaningful decision that enhances engagement positively). And, to aim for the low hanging fruit here, the Cherry Border doesn’t obscure your vision like the blinding lights half the Beast Mode power-ups give off.

It also doesn’t help that the plot and characters introduced in 17 feel disconnected from the rest of Gensokyo and can be hard to care about as a consequence.

However, I can’t understand those who complain about the story/music of WBaWC (though enjoyment of music is notoriously subjective). At least on a thematic level WBaWC is far more interesting to me than almost any other game in the series. I wrote a long post a while back on this topic here if you’re interested.

 

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Supposedly this game is the easiest in the series and is more darker. I'm not saying that's the reason people dislike it. But I can see it being factors.

 

[kobito]

I never really played these games for the story or characters so I can only comment on the gameplay, but I personally think WBaWC is probably the worst Touhou game in that regard.

The bosses are fine enough and have some neat patterns (though nonspell variety is lacking and the fights can generally drag on a tad), but I find its stages quite bad. Every enemy feels like it has 50% more health than it should, the pacing is a bit slow compared to prior games (IN and UFO being good examples imo) and most of the enemy waves are extremely bland. Stage 3 is literally nothing but aimed bullets aside from like 2 sections where you just hang out in the bottom middle and don't even have to move, stage 4 has a bunch of sections with nothing but yin-yangs spewing completely random bullets, stage 5 has the green kunai fairies where you just tap a single direction slowly for like 20 seconds (lots of sections where you do nothing but dodge basic aimed bullets, actually) etc. I really don't find much to like about them.

You could argue that the high enemy HP is justified because of the hypers but I think they just shouldn't be as broken as they are. You either melt everything super quick or enemies take forever to die, there's no real sweet spot. Most games with hypers balance enemy health around your base damage for good reason, it's how you spend most of the game after all.

The spirits themselves are kind of an underwhelming mechanic, too. I remember seeing a lot of people saying that they're a good improvement over how UFO handled them and while they're not as frustrating due to you always getting something after every 5 spirits, they also lack any of the depth the UFOs had. Picking a spirit at the start is kinda neat with how you can choose to prioritize focused/unfocused shots or bombs, but since your chosen spirit also significantly boosts the duration for hypers of the same type, you have absolutely zero reason to pick up anything else. Just grab whatever spirit you picked at the start and collect all the item spirits once you have a hyper going.

The resource system is also super bland. You kill enemies and some of them give you life/bomb pieces, that's it. You have no reason to get the item spirits if you don't have a hyper going, since it only gives you the reward after the hyper ends instead of the moment you pick it up and it cuts down on the hyper's duration. TD had a similar system in that you just get resources from certain enemies, but at least you could squeeze out more life/bomb pieces by using trance at the right times, and there were a handful of sections where killing enemies quickly was rewarded with additional enemies that carry pink/green spirits to make it more dynamic (not to mention the spirit trains in stage 6, which I thought were super fun to pick apart). The hidden spirits are admittedly a cool addition that makes gaining resources a bit more interesting but they're usually too inconvenient to go for when playing for a 1cc to be worth the effort.

And of course there's the visibility, which can get pretty garbage in spots. The powered-up and especially the hyper shots often blend in with bullets that already often have similar colors to the background. I don't mean to exaggerate and say it's bad all the time or anything but for being the 17th mainline game (or honestly, just being a shmup released in 2019), it's really not good.

For veteran players, there's even more issues that pop up. I don't think the game being relatively easy is a bad thing, but for anyone interested in no-hyper runs, I can see the random token movement being annoying, and for anyone interested in scoring...well, the game's been counterstopped (maxing out the score at 9,999,999,990), so if it wasn't for fan-made patches to fix it, that would be a pretty huge issue (not that I think the game itself should be excused because fans fixed this problem).

So yeah. Strictly looking it as a shmup, I don't think WBaWC is very well-designed. I can't say how well it stacks up as a Touhou game with the characters, lore and music taken into account (though I do like the music a good bit like basically every other Touhou game even if I'm not the biggest fan of the instrumentation), but I personally don't find it very fun to play at all.