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Why the general hate for anime/modern Japanese pop art & culture?


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2 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:

I still do not have a clear answer on "how would normally look/the degree of maturity of a human body around the age of 20?" (of course, if a "normal/average" does exist to begin with). Given how confused I got after 2 years of daily Touhou (and anime by extension) fanart overdose. It's that scary stage when you start looking around and "wait a minte, this (irl thing) doesn't look even a tiny bit like that!". It's one thing to get used to anime style art, but another to forget how a real human body looks like. Especially when you have no feasible way to know how it looks like besides...you know. Sometimes a very young anime/manga character will look like a "mommy" because the artist gave her exaggerated features, while other times a fully-grown adult character could be easily confused for a child. 

(just trying to tie things again into the main topic of this thread)

I gave you the answer implicitly xD

Anyway, the answer is that it just depends on how the woman grew up but in general, a 20 yo woman will look 100% the same as when she was 18. It’s only at 25 yo that she starts looking like a real adult (but progressively) ^^

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Another thing about anime art style. And quite a detour from the previous sub-topic (still open for discussion on that one though). Had I not been told this is the same character, I would have thought they are completely different ones. The style used can make quite a difference, and is one of the things I like a lot about art in general. Good connection with the overall topic since this is based on an anime:

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Artist: I think this is official material. Character - Tanamachi Kaoru from the video game Amagami (which was also turned into a manga spinoff series and anime, naturally)

unknown.png

Artist: miura-n315 (https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/71716971)

unknown.png

Artist: 薫風と共に去りぬ (https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/91641564)

No matter the art style, this is awesome. I just very fond of young women with black, wavy, shoulder-leght haircuts. It is my weak point; also make the hair a bit fluffy, and I feel like in heaven. And now with this, you are also aware of my tastes, at least in terms of art (gonna be interesting to actually rest this in real life at some point...). Plus, who can resist a cute, wholesome smile?

unknown.png


...what is going on with me?!

Edited by CountVonNumenor
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(Sorry for the bad English, I'm Brazilian)

I honestly think one of the reasons is because of all the spam it gets.

Recently, mangas and anime got really popular and a lot of kiddos got into it and started to spam a lot of stuff about their favorite anime till they became absolutely annoying.

But no only that, also the wish of everyone nowadays to be the "cool different guy", talking bad and ironizing everything they see about something they dislike/think are "cringe".

Maybe also the style itself and the community, specially the weeaboos and weebs, they certainly don't give a good iamge for people about Japan.

In my opinion, is all because the people nowadays want everything to be the way they like and think they're amazing for just having a polemical opinion, even tho I'm not one of those who love anime and always watch it, i find it interesting and love games with this style like touhou, for example, i recognize that isn't like every anime evolves that weird loli/tentacles stuff, and that animes aren't for everyone, having content that people can find kinda forced and "cringe", I'd say, the world is something that everyone thinks about theirselves as the judges of everything they see, and always wanna be better than everyone by having (or pretending to have) uncommon opinions that are actually popular.

Maybe i talked too much xd, But honestly, i miss how anime was before 2010, i feel like, before it getting very popular, the community was nicer and also had less hate than nowadays

ddpw4kc-1c13ccbd-b057-4245-82e2-82e737d185a4.gif

Edited by _.Mevs
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6 hours ago, _.Mevs said:

(Sorry for the bad English, I'm Brazilian)

Hello there! and welcome to the forum. It is always good to have new people joining the talk, and anyone is welcome. Do  not worry, your English is actually very good. As for myself, I am not a native English speaker either (I am Romanian), so we are in a similar situation. 

 

6 hours ago, _.Mevs said:

Recently, mangas and anime got really popular and a lot of kiddos got into it and started to spam a lot of stuff about their favorite anime till they became absolutely annoying. But no only that, also the wish of everyone nowadays to be the "cool different guy", talking bad and ironizing everything they see about something they dislike/think are "cringe".

Alright, this is fascinating. From my limited knowledge, anime was seen as a rather niche thing, mostly an interest of those creatures known as "(mom's) basement dwellers" and "neckbeards". However, those days FilthyFrank was talking about almost a decade ago are pretty much gone. Sure, the basement dwellers and neckbeards are still in there, but I knew anime and manga have become mainstream. It i funny how the average comic store in the United States nowadays (at least from what i have seen/was told) seems to be 3/4 selling manga and only 1/4 selling American comic books. The explanation I commonly hear for that is that we are in a state where either the American comics are so bad nowadays manga is seen as better, or manga in general is better written then said US comics. 

Here in Romania, even if manga/anime culture is not so widespread, it is slowly starting to make room. And nobody seems to be OK with it. "Oh, you like anime? That's cool, good for you" seems to be the general answer, as more and more young Romanians I came in contact with seems to have a preference for Japanese media over the American counterpart. It is not seen as a weird thing, just another interest/hobby, nothing unusual. 

 

6 hours ago, _.Mevs said:

Maybe also the style itself and the community, specially the weeaboos and weebs, they certainly don't give a good iamge for people about Japan.

I am not really sure how the "weaboo" cultures nowadays. Again, my main image in mind is that described by FilthyFrank long ago. Are they still just as bad as the old stereotypes describe them? As for "not making a good image for the people in Japan", the Japanese themselves are not much better. But that goes into cultural differences, which in itself can be a long discussion if anyone is interested.

 

6 hours ago, _.Mevs said:

I find it interesting and love games with this style like touhou, for example, i recognize that isn't like every anime evolves that weird loli/tentacles stuff, and that animes aren't for everyone, having content that people can find kinda forced and "cringe"

I guess that one depends on the anime genre and taste of the viewers? Indeed, it can be polarizing when you look into the tropes, themes, or even just the manner in which a lot of manga is written or anime done. Just like any other media source, it can be a target of stereotyping. Stereotypes will always happen, it depends a lot on the way they are executed. We are not talking about the questionable looking loli characters involved in naughty and inappropriate acts, or the whole tentacle thing (that one is, funny enough, a trope that has been up for like 350 years now)

 

6 hours ago, _.Mevs said:

Maybe i talked too much xd, But honestly, i miss how anime was before 2010, i feel like, before it getting very popular, the community was nicer and also had less hate than nowadays

Do not worry, I absolutely love reading long comments. You mean that anime was better until a decade ago? And is this related to the common complaint that anime/manga has become a series of stereotypes acting more like bait to gather... certain people in? Like a shape without any substance? Personally, I have not watched more than 1-2 anime my whole life (Kyoro-chan when I was a little child, and Hellsing Ultimate last year) besides half of Touhou Memories of Phantasm, so I cannot confirm. My main source of getting some info on 2-3 anime was through AspreyFM reading every Saturday anime reviews from My Anime List for a few weeks last summer. 

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Hello there! and welcome to the forum. It is always good to have new people joining the talk, and anyone is welcome. Do  not worry, your English is actually very good. As for myself, I am not a native English speaker either (I am Romanian), so we are in a similar situation

Oh, that's nice ! And thank you for being nice with me ! I'm still learning how to talk here, i'm loving the forum !

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Alright, this is fascinating. From my limited knowledge, anime was seen as a rather niche thing, mostly an interest of those creatures known as "(mom's) basement dwellers" and "neckbeards". However, those days FilthyFrank was talking about almost a decade ago are pretty much gone. Sure, the basement dwellers and neckbeards are still in there, but I knew anime and manga have become mainstream. It i funny how the average comic store in the United States nowadays (at least from what i have seen/was told) seems to be 3/4 selling manga and only 1/4 selling American comic books. The explanation I commonly hear for that is that we are in a state where either the American comics are so bad nowadays manga is seen as better, or manga in general is better written then said US comics. 

It changed recently actually, for example, here in Brazil, the teens know more about manga and anime than about our own cartoons and comics xd

That's actually the source for why nowadays there's prejudice with anime and etc, since now more people know about it and it got more popular, like, when something is very known, is easier for it to have haters, but at the same time, easier to have fans.

But is that thing, the bad always has more voice than the good, so, is easier for example to find a discord kid that spam a popular anime like naruto than someone actually nice that just like it.

The teens nowadays want something that isn't what they grew up with, to have some kind of "uncommon taste", so, Asia content attracts more them than what they see normally when they turn the TV on for example.

I think that's why anime became sooooo popular and known, and with that, a lot of prejudice came to it.

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I am not really sure how the "weaboo" cultures nowadays. Again, my main image in mind is that described by FilthyFrank long ago. Are they still just as bad as the old stereotypes describe them? As for "not making a good image for the people in Japan", the Japanese themselves are not much better. But that goes into cultural differences, which in itself can be a long discussion if anyone is interested.

 

Well, the weeaboos actually (in my vision, correct me if i'm wrong) aren't really a good first impression to Japan, like, if your first contact with Japan was a bunch of (mostly kids and old man) that treats japanese stuff like gods, would be kinda hard for anyone to actual like it or see more about it.

So, the stereotypes.

Before, "otaku" community was more like some "nerds" that liked to see fighting cartoons or kawaii little girls. That was the beginning of the prejudice, like, when you see a parody of anime/manga, you'll mostly see something based off on Dragon Ball (big guys with lots of muscles fighting) or Sailor Moon (cute magical girls trying to save the world), and since were cartoons, used to be more seen as "childish thing".

With the popularization, isn't hard to notice that a lot of kids started liking anime, so

Let's say, the stereotypes didn't completely changed, they just evolved at all to be more recent with 2015-2020 anime.

The animes (mostly shounen), follows a lot the idea of a emo or beautiful boy with cool powers and is seen as the "hot guys" by the girls that watch it (since stopped being something mostly popular for men) and as "idols" by the boys, people just stopped to appreciate the content and use it as part of their personalities. The same for stuff like the new Slice of Life or Moe animes that usually has lolis or cute/"interesting body" girls, and the people that watch that are seen as people that "spend way too time in the bathroom" or in the worse cases, well, seen as lolicons (like people see at least 50% of the Touhou community), and instead of something childish being watched by mature men (how it was seen before), now is seen as something mature being watched by kids, so, yeah, it doesn't really bring a good image for the new "otaku" communities.

Is a really deep hole with lots of stuff that came to be what anime is nowadays, if you're interested, i recommend watching some old and new anime and search some stuff about them, that's a good way to know more about this subject !

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I guess that one depends on the anime genre and taste of the viewers? Indeed, it can be polarizing when you look into the tropes, themes, or even just the manner in which a lot of manga is written or anime done. Just like any other media source, it can be a target of stereotyping. Stereotypes will always happen, it depends a lot on the way they are executed

Well, not really, the problem with anime nowadays is that almost them follow a formula that were applied a lot of times before, and it makes way easier to have stereotypes about them and their viewers.

Like, almost every Slice Of Life anime nowadays applies the formula of Miss Kobayashi No Maid Dragon but changing the scenarios and characters.

Same with Shounen, that very often follows the same formula as Boku No Hero or Naruto, but with other names for things that were used before.

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Do not worry, I absolutely love reading long comments. You mean that anime was better until a decade ago? And is this related to the common complaint that anime/manga has become a series of stereotypes acting more like bait to gather... certain people in? Like a shape without any substance? Personally, I have not watched more than 1-2 anime my whole life (Kyoro-chan when I was a little child, and Hellsing Ultimate last year) besides half of Touhou Memories of Phantasm, so I cannot confirm. My main source of getting some info on 2-3 anime was through AspreyFM reading every Saturday anime reviews from My Anime List for a few weeks last summer.

I'm also liking long comments tbh, they're really nice to read xd

Well, not really only anime, but their communities, since wasn't really popular, you had to search more for it and ended up meeting really nice people that shared same tastes as you, without a lot of spam outside their own fandoms and was more "comfy" to be in a anime community, just see how the 2000-2010 anime fanbases were really efforted to make something nice about the stuff they liked.

But yeah, the animes itselves too, since as i said before, they use a lot of stuff that were already used before, and aren't really original at all.

I say that because, i used to watch animes a lot back in 2014-2016 and 2019-2021, and yeah, things started being always the same, if you watch a lot of known animes and watch more random ones later, you can find between just a copy of other animes that went well or finding something original that's so underrated.

But some people confuses the originality in story and in the art style, there's a lot of beautiful animes nowadays where each frame is a piece of art, but end up having the same content as always.

Long ago, the animes had original and really nice content but, uh, not really well-made animations, since it didn't had a lot of computer programs to make them.

But well, it's being really nice to talk about it tbh, i'm loving the experience !

R.gif

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On 11/21/2022 at 4:46 PM, _.Mevs said:

Oh, that's nice ! And thank you for being nice with me ! I'm still learning how to talk here, i'm loving the forum !

Don't worry about it! I love whenever I can chat with someone. And with forums slowly becoming an extinct species, we really should appreciate this one for as long as it will be active (probably a little if I am still around). Anyway, feel free to post wherever you like, or create your own threads if there anything you may wish to share with us. 

 

On 11/21/2022 at 4:46 PM, _.Mevs said:

It changed recently actually, for example, here in Brazil, the teens know more about manga and anime than about our own cartoons and comics xd

Just like I was saying, manga and anime is becoming increasingly popular in Romania. And in all of that, I see people are (still) moderate. We may have some of those stereotypical "geeks" or even "weebs", but in general, people are very chill. Had they not told you they are into anime/manga or saw them in a big book shop at the manga section, you most likely would have had no idea they have such interests. And in a way, I like as such. People are chill, will not try to shove their favorite things down your throat, and can actually start up very interesting talks. 

Just yesterday, I was in a book shop selling manga here in Bucharest. There were a lot of people in that part of the shop, everyone with their own interests as there was quite the variety of manga to pick from. Even I was geeking out at one point, to be honest, after I found a special edition of Khota Harano's Hellsing manga (my initial trip to the shop was for checking out of they still have any edition of Forbidden Scrollery - probably the only official Touhou manga I have found here in Romania, and which I still need the final 3 volumes to complete my collection). I knew the series, was familiar with the anime adaptation, and was pleasantly surprised to hold one of those in my hands. Only problem: the price. Manga is still rather expensive here in Romania, especially if you are looking for a more famous series. However, despite the high price, they still sell. People really want to read those things, or are extremely curious to read this kind of media.

 

On 11/21/2022 at 4:46 PM, _.Mevs said:

Let's say, the stereotypes didn't completely changed, they just evolved at all to be more recent with 2015-2020 anime.

Again, what would be the most common stereotypes/ tropes regarding the current anime community? I am not very familiar with it, as I usually prefer spending the time and dedication in a small bubble made out of myself, my best friend (who is also keen into this kind of content - and who I managed to convert to Touhou soon after I found the series) and you guys. 

 

On 11/21/2022 at 4:46 PM, _.Mevs said:

or in the worse cases, well, seen as lolicons (like people see at least 50% of the Touhou community)

Trust me, I have seen that argument used against the Touhou community way too often. 2022 made me question a little more the validity of the argument, and the conclusion I came up with was that this 50% or more of the Touhou community is either horny for mommies or goes "cunny loli 😭" (god, I ended up hating this emote so much...). But I wrote probably en entire PhD study on that if yo are to read a lof of my initial threads on this forum:

  • Fanservice in the official Touhou works (with a deviation towards fanworks in the second half)
  • Why are Touhou fans so thirsty? (caused a big ruckus last summer when ported to r/touhou)
  • Touhou and mature content - the conclusion 

(yeah, it ended up turning into a trilogy, that you can find spread through the forum)

 

On 11/21/2022 at 4:46 PM, _.Mevs said:

Well, not really, the problem with anime nowadays is that almost them follow a formula that were applied a lot of times before, and it makes way easier to have stereotypes about them and their viewers. Like, almost every Slice Of Life anime nowadays applies the formula of Miss Kobayashi No Maid Dragon but changing the scenarios and characters. Same with Shounen, that very often follows the same formula as Boku No Hero or Naruto, but with other names for things that were used before.

I knew the big sensation for repetitive anime was in regards to the ones about heroes (I am not sure how to better call them - maybe you could help me?). Protag gets spirited away to another realm, gets bullshit OP abilities, saves the day without breaking a sweat, gets harem of shallow anime girls only good for their... "interesting body". You can add more here, but I think the idea I am point towards is clear. Or at the very least I hope it is...

 

On 11/21/2022 at 4:46 PM, _.Mevs said:

Well, not really only anime, but their communities, since wasn't really popular, you had to search more for it and ended up meeting really nice people that shared same tastes as you, without a lot of spam outside their own fandoms and was more "comfy" to be in a anime community, just see how the 2000-2010 anime fanbases were really efforted to make something nice about the stuff they liked.

In my previous post, I was talking about Kyoro-Chan. I have very found memories about that anime. I watched as a child before the year 2010, together with my mother and younger sister. As I was not yet in school, and therefore could not read (anime broadcasted in Romania was mostly subbed, but voiced over), my mother was reading the subtitles for us. It was a period I have fond memories of, since it was something we were doing every evening (at the time, one of the animation channels was broadcasting anime after 8 PM, and Kyoro-Chan was usually squished in between Naruto and whatever else was broadcasted at the time). And to make it even funnier, apparently Kyoro-Chan was only broadcasted here in Romania and in Slovakia out of all places outside Japan. 

 

 

On 11/21/2022 at 3:00 AM, CountVonNumenor said:

Character - Tanamachi Kaoru from the video game Amagami (which was also turned into a manga spinoff series and anime, naturally)

I made a little bit of research in regards to Amagami. To my surprise (pleasant or not, I have yet to decide), the original game is... a dating sim. I do not necessarily hate the genre, but I am not the most fond of it either. I am feeling ay to shy and flustered for even trying to play such a game, and maybe it is not my cup of tea. However, this Tanamachi girl has left a strong impression one me. I like the design - quite a lot actually, and like I have said further down the line in the post, she really fits into most of the design features (and overall physical appearance) details I like a lot.

I think a series of comments on Danbooru for a not-so-safe art piece sum up very well the feeling given by the design:

Spoiler

Screenshot_20221122_022254.jpg

That moment when people become more excited about a character's haircut than her body... (which I really sort of agree, that haircut really steals the show)

Am I just slowly descending into madness? Down another rabbit whole of obsessions? This time, it is not about an entire series anymore, but just about a single element from a series. She (Tanamachi Kaoru) is very cute though, and that is something to probably appreciate, I guess... If I actually were to play the game, or read the manga/watch the anime, I would probably solely watch it to see her. Again, I am really fond of young women with black, wavy, shoulder-leght haircuts. It is my weak point; also make the hair a bit fluffy, and I feel like in heaven. And the art style in which she is depicted can sometimes make the whole difference. That is why in the previous comment, I posted a variety of images about her - some of them from the official anime adaptation, others from the various artists. Overall, I really like the dedication of Amagami fans, as they are still drawing their series even of the oldest drawing uploaded to Danbooru for example are almost 15 years now. 

__tanamachi_kaoru_amagami_drawn_by_takem

(Imagine this was about 10 years ago...) Artist: takemi kaoru (source:  https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/42937270)

 

Bonus, more interesting content I have found about that series:

unknown.png 

A bit more of the cast from the game. Given it is a dating sim at origin, you sure can expect to have a lot of choices to pick from (Not pictured: probably like half of the girls)

unknown.png

And I think here we have all of the girls from Amagami...

 

unknown.png

(pictured: surprisingly, a rather canonical outfit of Tanamachi given one of her tasks) Artist: takayama kisai - original source dead, still maintained on Danbooru https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/687156 

unknown.png

67cdfa57597d12cab72f59b835fe91f4.jpg

Probably the actual, canonical waitress outfit...
 

And now for some lore (you can't escape me without having served some lore...):

  • General introduction (thanks to the Amagami wiki): Kaoru Tanamachi (棚町 薫 Tanamachi Kaoru) is one of main characters of Amagami SS and Amagami SS+ plus. She, along with Rihoko Sakurai, is a childhood friend of Junichi Tachibana and a student of Class 2-A with Junichi.
  • Appearance: Kaoru has black, curly hair, black eyes, and an average bust size. She is described as "stylish" or "trendy".
  • Personality: Kaoru is a tough and hardworking girl who is both lively and unpredictable. She also has a habit of teasing and hitting Junichi Tachibana at seemingly random moments. She is also the main target of Junichi's perversion and she is also seen with Masayoshi Umehara (Junichi's best friend). She works part-time as a waitress at a family restaurant and sometimes in other part-time jobs to help her mother maintain their ability as a two-person family to live independently. Consequently, she is totally against it when her mother dates another man.

I will not spoil the rest, since most of the relevant stuff on the wiki comes from the endings of the game. I will not go into information about the anime either, as I think it would be better to be explored by everyone individually (I may do that at some point, perhaps). I will just leave a clip here though. I have not checked it yet, but I think it will not create any problems around (also spoiler for potential spoilers - again, I am not so sure if it is an actual spoiler, or just a moment selected by the user becuase it looked funny/cute in the anime):

Spoiler

 

Anyway, Count is out now. Time to find some more good Touhou fanart, r just go to sleep if I feel as such (it is already past 1:30 AM, and I have been writing replies for over one and a half hours by now). 

Edited by CountVonNumenor

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Again, what would be the most common stereotypes/ tropes regarding the current anime community

Hmmmmm.... There's a lot actually xd

But some i can tell you, the emos that think they are psychos because they watch violent/dark anime (like death note or tokyo ghoul), the lolicons that, let's say, is how some people call who like moe in general (the real meaning of lolicon is really worse and really gross, but they use it to people that for example, just like a cute anime that has lolis), and some others that idk how to call but are basically people that like anime with a lot of "interesting body" girls, they're mostly hatred since they're mostly perverted.

But you can find lot others, like the kiddos, you can find people calling anyone that like naruto or some other shonen anime kids, since is a category that really attracts lots of children.

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(I am not sure how to better call them - maybe you could help me?)

Well, those are basically the shonen animes, they're surely the most famous kind of animes you can find.

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Trust me, I have seen that argument used against the Touhou community way too often. 2022 made me question a little more the validity of the argument, and the conclusion I came up with was that this 50% or more of the Touhou community is either horny for mommies or goes "cunny loli"

This... Is complex.

Let's say, touhou has some cute characters and the community make cute fanarts that make them look more like lolis, even tho those arts doesn't have nothing bad, they surely get the attention of some weird people.

Before the weird people, let's talk about the gross lolicon market itself.

In countries like Brazil, you can't find loli hent#i in google just searching for it (it is illegal here), you need to search for the name of a loli character to find it.

And when someone that has this barrier find out about touhou, is like a "diamond cave", they'll have A LOT of content to search for since there's a lot of touhou characters and lot of demand for this kind of content.

Now the market, the forbidden is always the most wanted, that's why is so common to NSFW artists to use tags such like, loli, furries, philias in general, 3D, realist and etc.

It's so common to find this content about touhou because it has a high demand, for having a lot of characters and that stuff, imagine, a weird lolicon (with money to demand comissions) find out about a game with a big ammount of loli characters? This person most likely will feed this market with their money, getting comissions with their exact gross desires with the innocent characters.

So, is pretty easy to think, touhou have high NSFW comissions and lots of loli content, so it's easy to someone outside the community find this content and say that touhou is a lolicons game, when that's not true (well, not completely true at least, probably there's a lot of lolicons in the community but they're not 100% of it).

Basically, this lolicon image probably isn't just because of what touhou fans say (i already found lots of people talking weird stuff of characters like flandre, remilia and cirno) but yes of what a lot of people can find when go deeper in touhou or have a bad first impression, internet is really big but, who cares about research nowadays, right? People just say what they see at all.

I had a good first impression (fumos) but when i looked deeper, i found lots of weird stuff, but ignored since touhou really got me and i liked the community and stuff about it, but isn't like that for everyone.

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gain, I am really fond of young women with black, wavy, shoulder-leght haircuts. It is my weak point; also make the hair a bit fluffy, and I feel like in heaven.

Well... I don't recommend you to look for the popopoka comics, you might feel really sad xdR.gif.675558ef97c406a179f3e6f2ea771110.gif

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7 hours ago, Turbonator said:

Count is the realest nigga I've seen on here.

Language, my dear colleague. I was hoping this forum at least would be a little more mannered in terms of the use of slangs and slurs. Even if I am not the biggest supporter of... whatever is going on nowadays in society, I still find the use of words like the N-word to be in poor taste. Even if just for a joke. I find it funny how that word would get you banned on pretty much all Discord servers I am part of, yet the Moriya Shrine Discord allows it without any issue. 
 

17 hours ago, _.Mevs said:

Well... I don't recommend you to look for the popopoka comics, you might feel really sad xd

Thank you, now I guess I know one thing to avoid. Just out of pure curiosity, is it really that bad though? Funny how out of all my rambling about Tanamachi, you decided to just focus on that part. 
 

17 hours ago, _.Mevs said:

This... Is complex.

Let's say, Touhou has some cute characters and the community make cute fanarts that make them look more like lolis, even tho those arts doesn't have nothing bad, they surely get the attention of some weird people. [...] And when someone that has this barrier find out about Touhou, is like a "diamond cave", they'll have A LOT of content to search for since there's a lot of Touhou characters and lot of demand for this kind of content. [...]

It's so common to find this content about Touhou because it has a high demand, for having a lot of characters and that stuff, imagine, a weird lolicon (with money to demand commissions) find out about a game with a big amount of loli characters? This person most likely will feed this market with their money, getting commissions with their exact gross desires with the innocent characters.

So, is pretty easy to think, Touhou have high NSFW commissions and lots of loli content, so it's easy to someone outside the community find this content and say that touhou is a lolicons game, when that's not true (well, not completely true at least, probably there's a lot of lolicons in the community but they're not 100% of it).

Basically, this lolicon image probably isn't just because of what touhou fans say (i already found lots of people talking weird stuff of characters like flandre, remilia and cirno) but yes of what a lot of people can find when go deeper in touhou or have a bad first impression, internet is really big but, who cares about research nowadays, right? People just say what they see at all.

In regards to my mention from the previous reply, I did write an entire thread covering the conclusions I got to after a little experiment:

There have been quite some surprises with the results (especially when it comes to some of the statistics in regards to the amount of R18 Touhou content). Many of them also reflect the views of the people on the issue, and just an overall feeling that does not contain itself to Touhou, but goes into other media in general - PEOPLE ARE HORNY. But I definitely recommend the read. (Also imagine over 43% of the Idolmaster fanart, at least on Pixiv, is mature-rated)

 

17 hours ago, _.Mevs said:

And when someone that has this barrier find out about Touhou, is like a "diamond cave", they'll have A LOT of content to search for since there's a lot of touhou characters and lot of demand for this kind of content. Now the market, the forbidden is always the most wanted, that's why is so common to NSFW artists to use tags such like, loli, furries, philias in general, 3D, realist and etc.

This reminds me of another comment I have done in the original thread about Touhou fans being horny. It was a comment on the legality of inappropriate depictions of "loli"/underage looking characters in both the United States and Romania (SPOILER: it is illegal), as a way to compare it with Japan. If you are to believe it, in Japan both "lolicon" and "shotacon" have some sort of special legal status that protects them because they are, allegedly, "pieces of cultural heritage". Really? This sure is the most legal statement of all times. 

 

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is it really that bad though? Funny how out of all my rambling about Tanamachi, you decided to just focus on that part.

Let's say, isn't NSFW or something graphic, but when you read the comics, is almost impossible to don't feel bad, most when you see more about the lore. I'll tell what's it about, popopoka is a blind little girl, she suffers abuse from her parents and is bullied (in a really heavy way) in her school, and well, she just don't deserve that, because she's so sweet and people still are so rude to her, i felt physical pain reading that :')

And guess what, there's no happy ending :')

And yeah, that part kind of took my attention xd

Quote

(Also imagine over 43% of the Idolmaster fanart, at least on Pixiv, is mature-rated)

I notice that, like, i remember searching for Marisa arts and pfps (without any term, just "Marisa Kirisame art" or "Marisa Kirisame pfp") and i found at least 7 NSFW pictures of her.

But i think that's what happen when all the characters of something are girls, my favorite anime is K-on, and the same happens to it (if not a NSFW picture, a [email protected] edit - K-on community is pretty weird sometimes).

Edit: Not really only girls actually, if you take a time to think, that animes with h0t beautiful boys also has a lot of it because of the fujoshis (yaoi fans - yaoi is basically gay anime stuff), not too different to Touhou and K-on, i lost the count of arts i saw of Reimu and Marisa together when i just wanted to find pfps or arts (like the banner in my profile, it was literally in the side of a art of Reimu and Marisa kissing).

Quote

If you are to believe it, in Japan both "lolicon" and "shotacon" have some sort of special legal status that protects them because they are, allegedly, "pieces of cultural heritage".

I saw that actually, i just lost my hope in that stuff, i think that's something that will never end at all, Japan always had some disturbing and gross stuff when it comes to NSFW.

 

R.gif.015c7e6d30a0d8238c078ef3cc332f99.gif

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On 11/24/2022 at 1:46 PM, CountVonNumenor said:

If you are to believe it, in Japan both "lolicon" and "shotacon" have some sort of special legal status that protects them because they are, allegedly, "pieces of cultural heritage".

I didn't originally want to post in this thread since I couldn't seem to form a cohesive stance on the matter, but this statement was so outlandish that I spent the last several hours researching the topic to see if it was true.
Count, I'm gonna need a source on this one, 'cause I couldn't find a single thing to support this specific claim. Doesn't mean I didn't find other things just as troubling.

As I covered in the post "Touhou and the concept of creative freedom," Japan cares a great deal for freedom of expression. It's heavily anti-censorship, opposed to creating domestic laws that restrict the creation of many different forms of art, and adverse to following international laws that should overrule their own. I don't have the time or the mental fortitude to cover everything I read, but here are a few relevant things I found.

  • While I could find nothing that gave special protection to "lolicon" and "shotacon" imagery, I did find that both fall under the broad definition of "artistic expression," which is a legal defense for otherwise questionable media. Pair it with a vague definition of "obscene," and there are relatively few cases where the government decides to step in on creativity. Calling something "legal" implies that it is also ethically sound to do, so I find it more appropriate to say that lolicon and shotacon imagery are "not illegal" under Japan's domestic law.
  • The only notable situation I could find regarding "pieces of cultural heritage" came from an infamous obscenity trial in 2004 known unofficially as the Misshitsu Trial, in which the author, editor, and publisher of the hentai manga Misshitsu were tried for distribution of obscene material. As part of their defense, they compared their work to historically erotic images called shunga which, despite being explicit in nature, were protected as being artistically and culturally sound. This defense ultimately failed, the men were fined and sentence, and the case was dismissed on appeal.
  • Japan is seriously slow to the draw on this issue, though. I found that apparently it wasn't until 2014 when Japan finally outlawed possession of real CP. ...Holy shit, 2014. Sure, it was illegal to make and distribute it long before then, but just owning it was okee-dokee, apparently. But remember: that's only for "real" CP. Simulated CP, including lolicon and shotacon drawings, is an entirely different story and isn't subject to that law.
  • Whether there should be a distinction between simulated CP and real CP in the eyes of the law is a hotly debated legal issue, and the laws on it will vary from nation to nation, though it seems that a majority of countries agree that CP, simulated or real, should not be tolerated. There are international laws and treaties that put a lot of pressure on Japan to conform to the majority of the world, but Japan has a secret legal tactic to resist it. It's really complex, and absolutely ingenious. It's called "Covering your ears and shouting "La la la, I can't hear you!"" Yeah, apparently Japan just... doesn't.

I don't really feel like delving into this any further, but to summarize:

Nothing I could find indicates that Japan gives special exception to lolicon and shotacon imagery, but rather that Japan's cultural and political emphasis on preservation of artistic expression and rejection of censorship spreads so wide that even undesirable content like those can find a haven beneath it.
The debate surrounding whether sexually explicit artwork of fictional minors should be illegal is really complicated. Ethically, I find it very easy to say that it's abhorrent, I hate it, and I wish it would all just go away. But, I'm an avid supporter of the idea that "Violence in media doesn't create violent people. Normal people can distinguish between fiction and reality." On principle, I should believe the same applies to sexually explicit art, yet I don't. I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel my stance on that was somewhat hypocritical.

 

This post has been brought to you by the letter S for "Source," which I hopefully won't be receiving, since the last thing I want after going down this uncomfortable, hours-long rabbit hole is to find that there was a second, much more unpleasant hole right next to it that I just didn't notice.

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Shanghai Doll knows what you've done.  162257545___alice_margatroid_and_shanghai_doll_touhou_drawn_by_nekoguruma__abeeeaa945645f8ecfdbbe81a2857a13(5).jpg.6da63ce849c93f73625172cb4a291f2a.jpg  I hope you're proud of yourself.

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I'd say this is a fine example of separate cultures developing in different ways, to the point that some differences can seem mind-boggling.

Some of you seem to think that Japan is making a special "exemption" for loli/shota content... heck, lately VICE News actually made a video (or a "hit piece", depending on who's asking) about Japan - paraphrasing - having a law loophole allowing for that, and it being "protected by the whole industry" or something to that effect.

I think that to truly grasp the subject we have to consider one thing, which might be understandably difficult, yet crucial: regardless of absolutely everything, even including morality and any facts, our point of view on the topics of CP, pedophilia, etc. is not, in fact, anything inherently and obviously natural to humanity as whole, no matter how natural it feels. In other words, Japan (and Japanese people, artists, lawmakers, etc) is not in any way rebelling against any sort of "natural" order, and the so-called Western "normies" aren't upholding any "natural" order either.
 

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3 hours ago, adzi said:

regardless of absolutely everything, even including morality and any facts, our point of view on the topics of CP, pedophilia, etc. is not, in fact, anything inherently and obviously natural to humanity as whole, no matter how natural it feels.

If this was agreed upon, I doubt this conversation would be happening in the first place. You can tell for the most part who is discussing from this point of view and who is assuming a degree of objectivity on the subject both by what they say and how they say it; up to this point, it just hasn't been as explicitly clarified. I fundamentally disagree with your statement as a denial of what "morality" means. As you stated it objectively (descriptive of reality, true for everyone), I will state my objection in the same way: morality is objective, transcending cultural standards and personal convictions.1 Our individual/collective understanding of the standard will vary, which is the subjective aspect to the discussion. As such, acknowledgement of the standard does not justify anyone to be excessively judgemental or condemning of other's adherence thereof, as each will have their own shortcomings.2

Spoiler

1Romans 1:18-20
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly see, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

2Romans 2:1-4
Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgement, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgement of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgement on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgement of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

 

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15 hours ago, SoundOfRayne said:

I didn't originally want to post in this thread since I couldn't seem to form a cohesive stance on the matter, but this statement was so outlandish that I spent the last several hours researching the topic to see if it was true. Count, I'm gonna need a source on this one, 'cause I couldn't find a single thing to support this specific claim. Doesn't mean I didn't find other things just as troubling.

I ill be honest right now. The claim for what I have said in regards to the status is something I got from Turbonator, the way he said it on the 28th May this year in "Why are Touhou fans so thirsty?" thread:

Quote

"Most of said content is made by the Japanese. From Wikipedia: "Fictional child pornography such as Lolicon, and Shotacon are excluded from the law. These fall under "cultural and artistic activities" which are protected by freedom of expression."

image.png

I would definitely call it a slip on my side when it comes to professionalism and sourcing. Therefore, my bad. Also, I did not even interpret the text of my colleague correctly. It was supposed to be "cultural and artistic activities", not "pieces of cultural heritage". Therefore, I committed two mistakes, not just one in terms of researching. I should have definitely taken a look into sources afterwards, and not just take the words at face value.

 

15 hours ago, SoundOfRayne said:

As I covered in the post "Touhou and the concept of creative freedom," Japan cares a great deal for freedom of expression. It's heavily anti-censorship, opposed to creating domestic laws that restrict the creation of many different forms of art, and adverse to following international laws that should overrule their own. I don't have the time or the mental fortitude to cover everything I read, but here are a few relevant things I found.

  • While I could find nothing that gave special protection to "lolicon" and "shotacon" imagery, I did find that both fall under the broad definition of "artistic expression," which is a legal defense for otherwise questionable media. Pair it with a vague definition of "obscene," and there are relatively few cases where the government decides to step in on creativity. Calling something "legal" implies that it is also ethically sound to do, so I find it more appropriate to say that lolicon and shotacon imagery are "not illegal" under Japan's domestic law.
  • The only notable situation I could find regarding "pieces of cultural heritage" came from an infamous obscenity trial in 2004 known unofficially as the Misshitsu Trial, in which the author, editor, and publisher of the hentai manga Misshitsu were tried for distribution of obscene material. As part of their defense, they compared their work to historically erotic images called shunga which, despite being explicit in nature, were protected as being artistically and culturally sound. This defense ultimately failed, the men were fined and sentence, and the case was dismissed on appeal.
  • Japan is seriously slow to the draw on this issue, though. I found that apparently it wasn't until 2014 when Japan finally outlawed possession of real CP. ...Holy shit, 2014. Sure, it was illegal to make and distribute it long before then, but just owning it was okee-dokee, apparently. But remember: that's only for "real" CP. Simulated CP, including lolicon and shotacon drawings, is an entirely different story and isn't subject to that law.
  • Whether there should be a distinction between simulated CP and real CP in the eyes of the law is a hotly debated legal issue, and the laws on it will vary from nation to nation, though it seems that a majority of countries agree that CP, simulated or real, should not be tolerated. There are international laws and treaties that put a lot of pressure on Japan to conform to the majority of the world, but Japan has a secret legal tactic to resist it. It's really complex, and absolutely ingenious. It's called "Covering your ears and shouting "La la la, I can't hear you!"" Yeah, apparently Japan just... doesn't.

Also HOLY COW thank you for all the research. I am sorry you had to go down a rabbit hole just to find, only for you to still remain with the feeling you may have needed to go one more hole just to make sure the topic is properly covered. But I would like to tell you a huge thank you for the research. I think it really sheds some light on this whole topic, as well as clear up misunderstandings. 

Besides, just from the way you presented it, the arguments pointed out remind me of what people tend to use as ammo against anime and its style. You know, the whole debate of... everything you have pointed out. "Well, even if simulated, it still looks like CP to me; and the style really makes everyone look like a child". Be it a weird loophole or not in the Japanese law, culture or whatever, it is still a weird thing to see. It feels as if it's just another casual drawing theme for them do depict small-looking boy/girl characters getting into those... not so family-friendly situation, given how many images of this kind exist. I would have used Danbooru to keep track of the numbers for example, but the problem there is that they only have the tags called "boy" and "girl". For that website, a girl is both a 5 year old child and a fully grown, mature man or woman. 

Oh, let's not get started on some of the tropes people tend to stereotypically associate anime/manga with, even if just at the level of jokes... That one is another can of worms, but which brings the whole discussion in a circle with the opening post of this thread.

 

6 hours ago, adzi said:

Some of you seem to think that Japan is making a special "exemption" for loli/shota content... heck, lately VICE News actually made a video (or a "hit piece", depending on who's asking) about Japan - paraphrasing - having a law loophole allowing for that, and it being "protected by the whole industry" or something to that effect.

I really did not know about the VICE thing. Do you have any link for that song, if it is any good? I am quite curios now. 

 

[...]

Also, has anyone noticed I a behaving a little strangely recently? At least when it comes to this whole personal Amagami mania thing. Or there is nothing strange at all? And speaking of that, I have checked the video I linked earlier in the thread:

On 11/24/2022 at 1:40 AM, CountVonNumenor said:

Some of you seem to think that Japan is making a special "exemption" for loli/shota content... heck, lately VICE News actually made a video (or a "hit piece", depending on who's asking) about Japan - paraphrasing - having a law loophole allowing for that, and it being "protected by the whole industry" or something to that effect.

Now I actually know what is going on in that video. The action in the video may seem like it's going one direction, given the way it is built up and if you are to go according to steretypes, but the twist turns it into wholesome at the end. What I was surprised of though was the...squishy voice they gave Tanamachi. I'm not sure what I should have expected, but this one sure was a surprise when put next to the design itself.

 

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18 hours ago, Ken Hisuag said:

If this was agreed upon, I doubt this conversation would be happening in the first place. You can tell for the most part who is discussing from this point of view and who is assuming a degree of objectivity on the subject both by what they say and how they say it; up to this point, it just hasn't been as explicitly clarified. I fundamentally disagree with your statement as a denial of what "morality" means. As you stated it objectively (descriptive of reality, true for everyone), I will state my objection in the same way: morality is objective, transcending cultural standards and personal convictions.1 Our individual/collective understanding of the standard will vary, which is the subjective aspect to the discussion. As such, acknowledgement of the standard does not justify anyone to be excessively judgemental or condemning of other's adherence thereof, as each will have their own shortcomings.2

  Hide contents

1Romans 1:18-20
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly see, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

2Romans 2:1-4
Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgement, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgement of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgement on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgement of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

 



It doesn't matter here if morality is objective... because people act in accordance of what they believe, and this may vary greatly, especially between cultures. That was my point, and I'm not sure what is yours.

Also, no, Bible is not any sort of proof that "our" standards of morality are automatically natural to all people in the world.

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@adzi are you claiming that being a pedophile is normal ? are you claiming that breaking a child innocence and personality is normal ?

You should know that it’s not a part of nature since

*When human were without any form of civilization, they would have sex only to have child

*A child cannot bare a child or would die of it

*So prehistorical men wouldn’t try to have sex with kids because it would be useless and counterproductive 

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5 minutes ago, Nekofire said:

@adzi are you claiming that being a pedophile is normal ? are you claiming that breaking a child innocence and personality is normal ?

You should know that it’s not a part of nature since

*When human were without any form of civilization, they would have sex only to have child

*A child cannot bare a child or would die of it

*So prehistorical men wouldn’t try to have sex with kids because it would be useless and counterproductive 

"normal"

I wasn't trying to argue that pedophilia is normal.

I'm merely pointing out that our point of view cannot be the "only true and natural one", because if it was, there's no way Japan would allow for loli and shota content to be created so openly.

I also considered going and dismantling in great detail your view that nature somehow always revolves around (modern) human logic and reasoning, but, risking sounding too smug, I'll just say that I frankly can't bother. I'll just say this: apparently there were cultures that didn't really connect the dots between having sex and having babies.

Just because humans are sapient, doesn't mean they don't have mere instincts too, and it's not like humanity has ever received some sort of instruction manual on "humaning" (and all answers saying otherwise are most propably religious in nature). Saying that prehistoric humans only ever had sex for deliberate procreation is a very bold claim, if not a presumption.


...how far can (should) we veer off into this anthropologic-philosophic offtop, I wonder.

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2 hours ago, adzi said:

I'm merely pointing out that our point of view cannot be the

"only true and natural one", because if it was, there's no way Japan would allow for loli and shota content to be created so openly.

Do you really think that pedophilia is a part of Japanese culture just because loli and shota are legit ? 

I think their is something else than moral that makes it legit like, the ones who decide the laws are actually lolicon aka pedophiles.

2 hours ago, adzi said:

I also considered going and dismantling in great detail your view that nature somehow always revolves around (modern) human logic and reasoning, but, risking sounding too smug, I'll just say that I frankly can't bother. I'll just say this: apparently there were cultures that didn't really connect the dots between having sex and having babies.

Of course, if their is culture we cannot talk about instinct at 100% anymore. If there is culture, there is civilization,so here you’re proving nothing… 

I mention that by "civilization" I’m not talking about the modern society we have know or about a type of culture or behavior. I’m referring to when any kind of tribe has etablished their language or/and laws.

2 hours ago, adzi said:

Just because humans are sapient, doesn't mean they don't have mere instincts too, and it's not like humanity has ever received some sort of instruction manual on "humaning" (and all answers saying otherwise are most propably religious in nature). Saying that prehistoric humans only ever had sex for deliberate procreation is a very bold claim, if not a presumption.

Err… of course they had sex because they feel the dopamine while doing this, but let me ask you a question : why every species on this planet produce dopamine while having sex ?? I hope you know the answer 

+pedophilia is not an instinct but a fetish or moral deviancy just give me some better proof that it’s a part of our instinct (real one like some neuro stud about the subject or something) and maybe I’ll believe you

 

(I also hope not being rude to you 😓)

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I've never said that pedophilia is part of Japanese culture. Would you please stop jumping to such extreme conclusions?

...although I'd say that hating pedophilia the way it's common among us certainly doesn't seem to be part of theirs.

Also, the assumption that, somehow, for multiple decades already, Japanese lawmakers are all (or at least in majority) pedophiles, is also pretty extreme... besides, if it was only that, and the Japanese people actually had views about pedophilia similar to ours, then, well... where are the riots?

Point is: just because a culture doesn't hate something with passion, doesn't mean they surely fully respect something and treat it like it's something good. And the other way around - just they doesn't love something, doesn't mean they hate it.

As for the dopamine rush - I get what do you mean, but, ultimately, it means nothing. A person doesn't need to think about making babies or parenthood during sex to feel good. The fact that it just so happens that the activity usually tantamount with procreation causes a dopamine rush is meaningless... Idk, would you say that homosexuals do not experience dopamine rush, because they do not procreate?

And about pedophilia not being an instinct, or an orientation, or being a deviancy or disorder... To be frank, I don't believe such labeling has any real use.
AFAIK, what science seems to reach about pedophilia are things that increasingly divorce it from human decisions: it doesn't require a person to be molested in childhood, or straight genetic inheritance, and pedophiles, regardless of their own apparent willingness and whatever support they actually get, are unable to stop being attracted to children, regardless of whether they already did something bad or not.... so, atm, it's a similar black box to sexual orientation; the only reason that people oppose that and want it to be considered a fetish, or disorder, etc. (and it actually being defined as a disorder officially) is nothing else besides it being objectively harmful - and nothing pointing at any potential bad side-effects if, somehow, pedophilia ceased to exist; but all that say nothing about the "how"s and "if"s of it existing or treating/curing/controlling it.... As far as I know, this is how nature is: regardless of whatever will be done, some people will, in spite of everything, including upbringing, sanity, and personal morality, grow up sexually attracted to children. So, in a way, it is an instinct, just not universal across all humans. Such is reality and I do nothing else than describe it here.

...it's not because you're rude, but you did make me rant.😫



so now you know why I have about 0 issue with loli/shota enjoyers.

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@Nekofire and @adzi please, let's keep this calm. I really do not want to know I have started a heated argument on such a sensitive topic, even if said topic was to be mentioned due to it being usually thrown around as an argument on the "why anime sucks" camp. Therefore, let's try keep it more connected to the general topic of the thread, or at least try to slowly reintegrate things together. After all, this is a thread about the stigma anime/manga gets (or at least used to get). Even though perhaps your points may have a place in this whole greater talk. 

 

So... anime and the artistic style, and why the style gets so much of a stigma in society outside Japan... 

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Sorry @CountVonNumenor I didn’t meant to make it looks like an argument. Anyway it’s a part of the topic since we are talking about a subject that makes people hate Japanese pop culture, some of my friends hate anime because of the lolicon and etc… and I’m explaining right now why people don’t feel naturally okay with lolicons.

 

18 hours ago, adzi said:

I've never said that pedophilia is part of Japanese culture. Would you please stop jumping to such extreme conclusions?

Proof it’s not a part of their culture « In 1999, Japan passed a national law criminalizing the production and distribution of child pornography.[106] The law's original draft included depictions of fictional children in its definition of child pornography… » since 2014 loli hentai are authorized because they said it’s only artworks but since 2015, being in possession of fictional or not pedopornography is a crime 

source : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography_laws_in_Japan
 

18 hours ago, adzi said:

...although I'd say that hating pedophilia the way it's common among us certainly doesn't seem to be part of theirs.

I’m not going to Google everything for you, you have Internet so why you don’t use it. Just read how the legality of loli hentai has been forged+discussed and you’ll see that only the one who were against forbidding it were the producers of loli hentai

Source : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolicon

 

19 hours ago, adzi said:

Point is: just because a culture doesn't hate something with passion, doesn't mean they surely fully respect something and treat it like it's something good. And the other way around - just they doesn't love something, doesn't mean they hate it.

As for the dopamine rush - I get what do you mean, but, ultimately, it means nothing. A person doesn't need to think about making babies or parenthood during sex to feel good. The fact that it just so happens that the activity usually tantamount with procreation causes a dopamine rush is meaningless... Idk, would you say that homosexuals do not experience dopamine rush, because they do not procreate?

I’m talking about the primitive human so you understand that it’s definitely not a part of our instinct.

You didn’t understood what I meant with the dopamine rush : if primitive humans/animals wouldn’t feel pleasure while doing sex, they wouldn’t have sex, and if they wouldn’t, so they would have no humans/animals on earth.

Now, don’t make me say what I’ve never said. I’ve never said that having babies will makes one feel dopamine, I’ve said having sex or stimulating the sexual part is making feel this dopamine. I know my English is not good but at this rate, sorry for the confusion…
 

19 hours ago, adzi said:

And about pedophilia not being an instinct, or an orientation, or being a deviancy or disorder... To be frank, I don't believe such labeling has any real use.
AFAIK, what science seems to reach about pedophilia are things that increasingly divorce it from human decisions: it doesn't require a person to be molested in childhood, or straight genetic inheritance, and pedophiles, regardless of their own apparent willingness and whatever support they actually get, are unable to stop being attracted to children, regardless of whether they already did something bad or not.... so, atm, it's a similar black box to sexual orientation; the only reason that people oppose that and want it to be considered a fetish, or disorder, etc. (and it actually being defined as a disorder officially) is nothing else besides it being objectively harmful - and nothing pointing at any potential bad side-effects if, somehow, pedophilia ceased to exist; but all that say nothing about the "how"s and "if"s of it existing or treating/curing/controlling it.... As far as I know, this is how nature is: regardless of whatever will be done, some people will, in spite of everything, including upbringing, sanity, and personal morality, grow up sexually attracted to children. So, in a way, it is an instinct, just not universal across all humans. Such is reality and I do nothing else than describe it here.

It’s not instinct. Or else children would be 100% okay with being f*cked by an adult.

Are you really trying to make me believe that it’s a sexual orientation or that it’s instinct ? Pedophiles are usually the kind of people who have been rejected by the society or a group they would belong to, they are scared of women and prefer innocent and weak little girls because they are easier to « tame ».

That’s not because some person find kids hot and sexy that it’s normal, scatophilia is also a sexual orientation or what ??

Also I asked a neurological proof not a personal statement 

 

19 hours ago, adzi said:

...it's not because you're rude, but you did make me rant.😫

Haha why ? I hope you didn’t took it personally 
 

19 hours ago, adzi said:

so now you know why I have about 0 issue with loli/shota enjoyers.

Maybe because you didn’t understood  yet how fast it can be dangerous for children 

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