Jump to content

Why the general hate for anime/modern Japanese pop art & culture?


CountVonNumenor

Recommended Posts

not want to drag this subject any longer, but the Wikipedia article on pedophilia literally has a section about its causes, with lots of links to sources. Also, there's this thing called personal accountability - whatever bad things any one, or several lolicons/pedophiles do, should not condemn those who don't. Live and let live (those who let live).


As for the ACTUAL topic... I can think of some reasons, some obvious, some less

- the thing with common sexualization/fanservice. Especially when characters involved are minors (and not necesssarily loli/shota).
- the oversaturation of the isekai genre might color the perception of anime among people from outside the community, with all those power and harem fantasies... especially when the protagonist could be described as a "loser".
- otherwise, there are still people who assume that "animated thing=for kids", which either leads to them not having a high opinion about adult people watching it, or getting shocked and/or disgusted when they crash head-first into something not kid-friendly (especially if that person is concerned about things looking like they are kid-friendly when they aren't)

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@adzi No problem but I really didn’t meant to hurt or offend you… 😟

 

I feel somehow that it’s like, the +30 years old generation (I guess they are called the Milleniums or something) who are still stereotyping animes or people who enjoy animes.

There is also another stereotype about anime, some people tend to think that it’s always some complex and "geek"-like stories as multidimensional monsters who fights with human against the demon’s kingdom, I know it’s exaggerated but some people just perceive anime’s story like that 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/27/2022 at 4:33 AM, adzi said:

Bible is not any sort of proof that "our" standards of morality are automatically natural to all people in the world.

I believe you are correct in saying that my references to the Bible do not serve as sufficient "proof" for my statements. "Proof" is typically a reference to evidences that convince; if you are not convinced, the evidences presented are not proof.

The Scripture references serve as justification to my statements; that is, the why of what I believe. What I justify my statements by is determined by my worldview: the bias by which I reason and make decisions. I cannot expect anyone to accept my statements on this basis, anymore than anyone can expect me to accept their statements based upon their worldview. The goal is not acceptance (i.e. "proof"), but merely justification. It would be foolish of me to demand of someone else to use my worldview to justify their beliefs, which are a product of their own worldview. Additionally, it is important that I justify my statements so that those I am communicating to may understand the foundation of what I am asserting, and thus may answer (if they wish to do so) in accordance with it.

Morality being objective means that people's subjective beliefs about good and evil can be correct or incorrect, and as such their actions are either wrong or right regardless of what they themselves think; that is a matter of definitions. What is "natural" is not necessarily reflective of what is moral; that is a matter of worldview.

If you are interested in doing so, I wouldn't mind hearing about what you believe your worldview to be. 🙂

On 11/27/2022 at 6:17 PM, CountVonNumenor said:

So... anime and the artistic style, and why the style gets so much of a stigma in society outside Japan... 

I said months ago that I intended to reply to this, and in the meantime I've been quietly observing the existence of said stigma, formulating my considerations on the matter. The response is coming.

  • Like 1

TTT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/28/2022 at 6:22 PM, adzi said:

- the oversaturation of the isekai genre might color the perception of anime among people from outside the community, with all those power and harem

Interesting, this is exactly one of the things I was talking about in the past page of the thread. And speaking of isekai genre, how did it become so popular? Was there an anime.manga that became extremely popular, then everyone decided to copy it? Or does i have success through the simple fact it works as wish-fulfilling fantasy for a life that is generally felt as unfulfilling? (insert stereotypes about Japanese work ethics... or lack thereof)

 

On 11/28/2022 at 6:22 PM, adzi said:

otherwise, there are still people who assume that "animated thing=for kids", which either leads to them not having a high opinion about adult people watching it, or getting shocked and/or disgusted when they crash head-first into something not kid-friendly (especially if that person is concerned about things looking like they are kid-friendly when they aren't)

The problem about "animation/anime = for kids" still truly is a problem. I guess it is mostly a western problem? Especially since at least until recently, there have been few good animations for adults. Animation should be a medium of expression, not something that is strictly limited to the younger demographic. I feel the west took the lesson wrong though. When you think of animations for mature public from the west, you usually think of stuff like South Park, Family Guy or maybe Primal if you are going for a more recent example. For the former two (Primal is actually surprisingly good, but I guess that just comes from being a Genndy Tartakovsky animation), the "adult" element seems to mostly focus on the use of profanity, gross humour and violence. Which none of them would be necessarily needed for a good series. I think they still have to learn a little bit about how to make adult animations. 

 

On 11/28/2022 at 8:19 PM, Nekofire said:

There is also another stereotype about anime, some people tend to think that it’s always some complex and "geek"-like stories as multidimensional monsters who fights with human against the demon’s kingdom, I know it’s exaggerated but some people just perceive anime’s story like that

interesting, because at least from my own experience here in Romania, anime is not really that much of a geek thing anymore. Especially since many of us born in the late 1990s - early 2000s grew up with anime broadcasted on TV. As for the geek part, again, based on experience, it is rather mixed. In high school people may have looked a little weird on me, but now in college, it was either treated as just something normal, or someone actually getting excited to hear I have a geeky side. 

 

Now coming back again to the original post of the thread, I may wish to return to some questions of that post:

Quote

2) how did the whole thing evolve to be the way it is nowadays?
3) why does it look so appealing? it sometimes feels like it was created to be as cute or downright attractive (in all ways possible)
4) why is the doll proportion such a recurring theme in the art? (usually, going around the 6 heads height compared the more regular 8-9 heads tall propotion)
5) besides the odd proportions, why does everyone look like they are severely underaged? sometimes, I feel like like the only thing they try for making them look aged up is to stretch the length of their legs and give big boobs to the character (I was actually surprised the latter is also done in American superhero comics too)

 

PS: given my Amagami related posts from Page 2, I will probably start a special thread about that, and move information from here to there. 

spacer.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:
On 11/28/2022 at 11:22 AM, adzi said:

- the oversaturation of the isekai genre might color the perception of anime among people from outside the community, with all those power and harem

Interesting, this is exactly one of the things I was talking about in the past page of the thread. And speaking of isekai genre, how did it become so popular? Was there an anime.manga that became extremely popular, then everyone decided to copy it? Or does i have success through the simple fact it works as wish-fulfilling fantasy for a life that is generally felt as unfulfilling? (insert stereotypes about Japanese work ethics... or lack thereof)

I would disagree with azdi's take. Effectively all hatred of isekai as a setting comes from within the anime community, not outside of it. Isekai has a long and muddy history, since the idea of "a character gets transported to a different setting" has existed for decades; hell, even long before anime. Inuyasha is the first example I can think of for an isekai story that predates its modern interpretation. As for where that modern interpretation came from, there's no doubt in my mind that it started in 2012 with the airing of Sword Art Online.

My post is gonna cover a lot of topics brought up this video by Mother's Basement. I'd recommend watching it for the full context, and because MB is much better at explaining things than I am, but if you don't have the 24 minutes to spare, I'll be giving a shorter version of things.

SAO was massively influential, and for a number of reasons. Its release couldn't have been timed more perfectly. It lined up with Crunchyroll making big waves as the premier hub for streaming anime. Prior to Crunchyroll, anime viewers had to rely on things like fansubs, YouTube rips, and shady sites sporting tons of ads, pop-ups, and other things that make your antivirus software want to kill itself. Now anyone could get into anime safely and legally. On the flip side, MMORPGs were taking off as World of Warcraft stopped being the only player in town, and people started getting into them thanks to the mass adoption of the Free-to-Play business model. With the aide of Chinese game publishers eager to capitalize, F2P MMOs were the "in" thing in the early 2010s. Two previously niche activities were now being made more accessible to general audiences. And then as that's going on, in comes Sword Art Online, the anime. It had already seen previous success as a light novel, but now it's got a shiny, polished, animated coat of paint and again, is releasing right as both anime and online gaming were taking off in ways previously unimaginable.
To say SAO came in with a bang would be harshly underselling it; more like it came in riding a nuke like a bucking bronco. If you were a fan of anime or MMORPGs around 2012, you knew what SAO was. I distinctly remember 2 different anime-styled MMOs I played at the time, Eden Eternal and Aura Kingdom, were quick to jump on the bandwagon and release cosmetic items to match the style of SAO's main characters, and it's a good thing too, since the new player starting areas in those game were filled with name variations of Kirito and Asuna. MMO players lapped this stuff up. Not to say that general audiences didn't - they definitely did. SAO was nothing short of a monumental success, and played a significant role in the formation of a new generation of anime fans bred through the new medium of online streaming services. A generation that the larger anime community at the time lovingly named

Spoiler

"fucking casuals."

Yeah, for all the good SAO did for the larger expansion of anime here in the west, it was certainly not without its drawbacks. Shonen anime was out as the community's go-to punching bag, and SAO took its place almost immediately. It's not all undeserved. SAO's writing has been criticized by literally everyone. There was no better way to earn the almighty algorithm's favor in the years following SAO's release than to rail on it and watch as people from both sides of the debate flock in.

Sword Art Online brought to the forefront a lot of tropes that stereotype modern isekai. You have a teenage male protagonist with a brooding aesthetic design. That protagonist is transported to another world that is based off of high fantasy concepts seen in role-playing games. The protagonist is able to excel in this other world thanks to characteristics or skills that were previously useless to him in the real world. The protagonist then finds himself the object of desire for several love interests; harems are optional, but recommended. But since we want to be aired on television, we can't get too risque, so we'll leave it to "tasteful" fan servicing. The protagonist and his entourage will face an obstacle(s) that thematically matches the protagonist's inability to find success in his previous life, leading him to either find acceptance for his past failings, or be able to reject them entirely. Thanks to this, the protagonist can find self-value and self-fulfillment in the actions he chooses to partake in.
SAO didn't invent a single one of these concepts. However, it was the anime that everyone knew about. And now, everyone knew what these tropes were, and had a clear point of reference whenever they were used in future anime.

I mentioned before, but these tropes don't define isekai; they stereotype it. Barring very clear examples of generic, uninspired stories, isekai has seen more diversity in theme and tone than any genre of anime. No one in their right mind would make the claim that Re:Zero, Konosuba, Ascendance of a Bookworm, Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash, and Mushoku Tensei are basically the same show, yet they all fall under the isekai umbrella. The only thing they all really keep in common with one another is being an isekai.

You'd be forgiven for thinking that last bit means I'm actually a fan of isekai shows. Of the 5 shows I listed, I only enjoyed 2 of them: Re:Zero and Konosuba, and I've checked out many others that I didn't bother adding to the list. The view of isekai within the anime community paints a stunning parallel to how anime in general is viewed outside the community. All the hate is formed from stereotypes, and people dismiss things under the grounds of "All of [x] is basically the same." I would know. I absolutely do that with isekai shows, even when they deliberately go out of their way to not conform to the tropes I associate with them.

I've long-since lost track of what this post was supposed to be about. I'm now left pondering if I could even justifiably discuss stereotypes levied against anime when I'm just as guilty of stereotyping certain kinds of anime. But for @CountVonNumenor, I wanted to share one more video by Gigguk, where he summarizes the history of isekai, how we got to where we are today, and his thoughts on why it happened. Some of it matches with what I've said, but there's some extra insight in case you're curious. Just on the off-chance anyone hasn't seen his content, I recommend it.

  • Thanks 1
  • Up 1

Shanghai Doll knows what you've done.  162257545___alice_margatroid_and_shanghai_doll_touhou_drawn_by_nekoguruma__abeeeaa945645f8ecfdbbe81a2857a13(5).jpg.6da63ce849c93f73625172cb4a291f2a.jpg  I hope you're proud of yourself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/26/2022 at 2:42 AM, SoundOfRayne said:

Japan has a secret legal tactic to resist it. It's really complex, and absolutely ingenious. It's called "Covering your ears and shouting "La la la, I can't hear you!"" Yeah, apparently Japan just... doesn't.

To me, this sounds a lot like the random artist you could find posted on Danbooru or Gelbooru on a daily basis. And I'm not even sure which one is the worse case - the artist who draws lewd loli under commission (sometimes, they don't even need to be commissioned for doing that), or the guy who commissioned the artist to draw the lewd loli. It's very uncomfortable to see what looks like a 4-5 year old child getting pegged by a massive...faceless buff dude who only works as a stand-in, self-insert for either the artist or the commissioner. 

But yeah, I think the perverse nature, over-sexualization of many pieces of anime-style art, "interesting body types" and gratuitous fanservice seem to be the most common source of criticism towards the entire group made out of anime, manga and everything connected to their art style. 

 

spacer.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/1/2022 at 4:06 AM, SoundOfRayne said:

I would disagree with azdi's take. Effectively all hatred of isekai as a setting comes from within the anime community, not outside of it. Isekai has a long and muddy history, since the idea of "a character gets transported to a different setting" has existed for decades; hell, even long before anime. Inuyasha is the first example I can think of for an isekai story that predates its modern interpretation. As for where that modern interpretation came from, there's no doubt in my mind that it started in 2012 with the airing of Sword Art Online.

My post is gonna cover a lot of topics brought up this video by Mother's Basement. I'd recommend watching it for the full context, and because MB is much better at explaining things than I am, but if you don't have the 24 minutes to spare, I'll be giving a shorter version of things.

SAO was massively influential, and for a number of reasons. Its release couldn't have been timed more perfectly. It lined up with Crunchyroll making big waves as the premier hub for streaming anime. Prior to Crunchyroll, anime viewers had to rely on things like fansubs, YouTube rips, and shady sites sporting tons of ads, pop-ups, and other things that make your antivirus software want to kill itself. Now anyone could get into anime safely and legally. On the flip side, MMORPGs were taking off as World of Warcraft stopped being the only player in town, and people started getting into them thanks to the mass adoption of the Free-to-Play business model. With the aide of Chinese game publishers eager to capitalize, F2P MMOs were the "in" thing in the early 2010s. Two previously niche activities were now being made more accessible to general audiences. And then as that's going on, in comes Sword Art Online, the anime. It had already seen previous success as a light novel, but now it's got a shiny, polished, animated coat of paint and again, is releasing right as both anime and online gaming were taking off in ways previously unimaginable.
To say SAO came in with a bang would be harshly underselling it; more like it came in riding a nuke like a bucking bronco. If you were a fan of anime or MMORPGs around 2012, you knew what SAO was. I distinctly remember 2 different anime-styled MMOs I played at the time, Eden Eternal and Aura Kingdom, were quick to jump on the bandwagon and release cosmetic items to match the style of SAO's main characters, and it's a good thing too, since the new player starting areas in those game were filled with name variations of Kirito and Asuna. MMO players lapped this stuff up. Not to say that general audiences didn't - they definitely did. SAO was nothing short of a monumental success, and played a significant role in the formation of a new generation of anime fans bred through the new medium of online streaming services. A generation that the larger anime community at the time lovingly named

  Reveal hidden contents

"fucking casuals."

Yeah, for all the good SAO did for the larger expansion of anime here in the west, it was certainly not without its drawbacks. Shonen anime was out as the community's go-to punching bag, and SAO took its place almost immediately. It's not all undeserved. SAO's writing has been criticized by literally everyone. There was no better way to earn the almighty algorithm's favor in the years following SAO's release than to rail on it and watch as people from both sides of the debate flock in.

Sword Art Online brought to the forefront a lot of tropes that stereotype modern isekai. You have a teenage male protagonist with a brooding aesthetic design. That protagonist is transported to another world that is based off of high fantasy concepts seen in role-playing games. The protagonist is able to excel in this other world thanks to characteristics or skills that were previously useless to him in the real world. The protagonist then finds himself the object of desire for several love interests; harems are optional, but recommended. But since we want to be aired on television, we can't get too risque, so we'll leave it to "tasteful" fan servicing. The protagonist and his entourage will face an obstacle(s) that thematically matches the protagonist's inability to find success in his previous life, leading him to either find acceptance for his past failings, or be able to reject them entirely. Thanks to this, the protagonist can find self-value and self-fulfillment in the actions he chooses to partake in.
SAO didn't invent a single one of these concepts. However, it was the anime that everyone knew about. And now, everyone knew what these tropes were, and had a clear point of reference whenever they were used in future anime.

I mentioned before, but these tropes don't define isekai; they stereotype it. Barring very clear examples of generic, uninspired stories, isekai has seen more diversity in theme and tone than any genre of anime. No one in their right mind would make the claim that Re:Zero, Konosuba, Ascendance of a Bookworm, Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash, and Mushoku Tensei are basically the same show, yet they all fall under the isekai umbrella. The only thing they all really keep in common with one another is being an isekai.

You'd be forgiven for thinking that last bit means I'm actually a fan of isekai shows. Of the 5 shows I listed, I only enjoyed 2 of them: Re:Zero and Konosuba, and I've checked out many others that I didn't bother adding to the list. The view of isekai within the anime community paints a stunning parallel to how anime in general is viewed outside the community. All the hate is formed from stereotypes, and people dismiss things under the grounds of "All of [x] is basically the same." I would know. I absolutely do that with isekai shows, even when they deliberately go out of their way to not conform to the tropes I associate with them.

I've long-since lost track of what this post was supposed to be about. I'm now left pondering if I could even justifiably discuss stereotypes levied against anime when I'm just as guilty of stereotyping certain kinds of anime. But for @CountVonNumenor, I wanted to share one more video by Gigguk, where he summarizes the history of isekai, how we got to where we are today, and his thoughts on why it happened. Some of it matches with what I've said, but there's some extra insight in case you're curious. Just on the off-chance anyone hasn't seen his content, I recommend it.

Also thank you so much for this entire explanation. I will probably try watch the videos some time later, as I am finally able to enjoy a few days worth of break from courses and any other activities. I really did not know any of the stuff you have mentioned. 

spacer.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
  • 1 month later...

Alright, I've put this off long enough.

The first thing to do is examine the question to ensure proper comprehension (of course). "Why the general hate for anime/modern Japanese pop art & culture?" "Hate" is a strong word, denoting a strongly negative emotion of intense spite and disgust toward something. It isn't usually used that way anymore, at least here in America (I can't speak for any other cultures, but my experience here is of people who think very little about the words they use beyond what might get them in trouble, and sometimes not even that). Nonetheless, it's worth clarifying a distinction between an active malice toward modern Japanese art (henceforth MJA, referring to anime and manga), and a more passive distaste or aversion toward it. I understand hatred to be a passionate emotion, actively driven to express itself toward its target (not necessarily all at once); comparatively, I find most examples of negative expression toward MJA are reactionary, i.e. in response to a specific situation. Most people are content to avoid interacting or acknowledging MJA, and encouraging others to do the same; they may be vehement in their expression, but not usually fanatical enough for me to consider it "hatred." I will proceed with this understanding in mind, thus altering the question as follows: "Why the general aversion for modern Japanese art?"

The major presupposition of the inquiry is that there is a general aversion to MJA ("general" being a widespread normalization). While I don't disagree with this presupposition, it's good practice to be critical of all presuppositions, thereby preemptively encountering potential objections. This was the main reason I didn't respond to this topic for so long; I wanted to observe negative stigma of MJA in action, and attempt to gauge how common it really was. The loudest/most visible aspect of a situation tends to be more extreme, and thus not necessarily an accurate representation thereof (as we've discussed previously); I wanted to avoid assuming the stigma without in some way experiencing or otherwise reaffirming it. As expressed in the above paragraph, the results of my observations was to conclude a lack of intensive negativity as opposed to a more passive (though often convicted) aversion.

Interestingly, this stigma usually lacks conscious justification; those who express aversion to MJA do not often provide explanation for it, even when prompted to do so. This leads me to presume an experiential, rather than evidential, explanation, meaning that the stigma is likely born of association rather than essential nature. This would line up well with the general consensus of this thread: there is a general aversion to modern Japanese art because it is associated with other potentially distasteful things (the thread has specifically focused on sexual content, though consideration has been given to a few other subjects). This may be sufficient answer to the question, but leaves open speculation concerning the justifiably of the association; I intent to address this as well.

  • Like 1
  • Up 3

TTT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The "association" thing does seem like a good point, frankly... there are numerous articles, videos, ect. with trivia about how many mangakas of popular, mainstream titles used to draw - or might be still drawing - doujinshi of other franchises, with some of those doujinshi obviously being R18. If you like a certain title, if you don't do the research, you can't be sure if its author did not make something that would disgust you, any ordinary person (maybe out of Japan), or even potentially would put the author in jail if they weren't in Japan.


...and do not even start me on Rurouni Kenshin, it won't end well.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel the need to clarify a potentially misleadingly vague word in my recent statements, that being "experiential." By this I was referring to experiences only relevant second-hand to the subject, not experiences directly with the subject itself; my intent was to contrast this with first-hand understanding of the subject, implying these as proper "evidences." My point was that a majority of the aversion toward modern Japanese artwork is based on experiences associated to it, but not directly with it. Ironically, few of those with negative opinions based on associated experiences will have actually experienced the subject directly. Again, this is not yet a critique of the conclusion; I'm merely pointing out the inconsistency in the common justification thereof.

  • Like 1

TTT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.