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Why are Touhou fans seemingly so thirsty?


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10 hours ago, SasaMisa said:

Porn has always existed and will continue to exist: it's only its form that changes with time. For my part, it's not difficult at all to understand why people prefer anime/manga characters to the real thing, especially in Japan, where it is taken quite a bit more seriously (adult manga/dojinshi are the epitome of erotica as far as I'm concerned, always have been).

Hello again. I would like to reinforce my point one more time: I have nothing against the existence of such materials. I was more interested about their appeal and what makes people enjoy them so much. Also everyone has different tastes, which is perfectly fine. 

 

10 hours ago, SasaMisa said:

Incidentally, I will state that I've never been a fan of live-action porn; always found it obvious and vulgar, much like real women in general.

This is something I can agree with. It feels quite devoid of soul, mass produced and gross. It is also apparently accused of creating a bad/fictional/idealized image around how a male/female body should look like, as well as a poor understanding of relations and sexuality. I cannot confirm it though, as I try to stay as far as I can from it. But apparently it does create some problems in society. Long ago, in Romania was a bit of talk about how you are having a problem in Britain with an increasing amount of underage people being exposed to live-action porn, which combined with the lack of proper sex education lead to problems. Is this true, or some sort of fake news that came from Britain through shady sources (I do remember there was a British show airing every Saturday evening here in which some lady was advocating for sex education or something). 

 

10 hours ago, SasaMisa said:

(Rule34 used to be seen as little more than a joke by many)

Wait, you want to say that website and the whole idea of "Rule 34" in itself started as a joke? I know the rule itself came from an old joke on 4chan, but I did not know it extended to the creation of the website itself. Also, when did hentai the way we know it nowadays start making its appearance? We have already talked about the old Japanese erotic art, but the modern thing is quite intriguing as well. Also, is that traditional sort of art still being produced nowadays?

 

10 hours ago, SasaMisa said:

In addition, the various governmental/non-governmental organisations of the world have finally woken up to the obvious fact that the style of anime is clearly, overtly sexual, even when it's not trying to be that way at all. It's what you get when you combine the cuteness of Disney with an incredibly idealised version of the female form. I seem to recall someone saying this about Tenchi Muyo in the past, in that he wasn't sure whether he should be masturbating to it or not. (^_^;)

I am not very sure about what you intended to say here. Could you please elaborate a bit more? It really caught my attention, but I did not fully understand. You say that governments/NGOs realized the overtly sexual style of anime illustrations as a whole? I mean, it is not like Japan took a lot of American influence in terms of animation. Maybe you can correct me, but from what I heard the Japanese were passionate about American cartoon since the interwar years, particularly stuff like Betty Boop or Disney animations. And after the war, the idea of comics was imported from the US as the Japanese were trying to copy the American lifestyle as much as they could. But again, maybe I am wrong again and what I remember is poor. But indeed, anime seems to be blamed for promoting an idealized version of the female form (which I think was the reason that attracted me into trying the style for my drawing - and I have been stuck into that for almost 2 years now despite questioning myself what I actually want to do - see the "How to draw" thread I started not loong ago in pursuit of a new artistic direction). 

 

Quote

I only really have one more thing to add to that Thirst thread, but I'll let you all respond first. Regardless, I don't think you're ever going to get a definitive answer to your initial question because there really isn't one. (^_~)

 Well, it looks like a change in direction would not be a bad thing. So we have the following questions:

  1. Why is Touhou so prolific when it comes to R18 materials? - already answered in the comments above (absolute freedom of expression given to the artists)
  2. Now, for the second question, hopefully better formulated this time: Why is R18 art so appealing? What is the thing that makes people like seeing their favorite characters in compromising poses, or having intercourse with a strange, faceless man? The faceless man is usually one of those things I found freaky. Why? Because one explanation for why people are usually faceless in such images/manga in the following: in order to make self-inserting possible. Basically, the idea is for you to be able to imagine yourself being the one making love with your favorite character. I can accept wholesome, consensual acts being depicted (I don't care if it's straight or yuri as long as there is some common sense), but at least please give those men some faces. 
Spoiler

Also personally, I am very much against anything depicting rape, fetishes or other kinds of stuff that might be a little too much. I don't want to read a story about Koishi raping Sanae in the middle of the Human Village in full daylight (yes, this is an actual plot) for example. Or about an army of faceless men getting all to a 2hu girl at the same time. Nor having one of the girls looking like a freaking 8-10 years old, bein being taken on by some old looking bastard. or very much some sort of awful anatomy with body parts that do not make any (common) sense in terms of proportions. It is just not my cup of team.

 

Sorry for the final part and my very rough language (that is what spoiler is for). I really felt like I had to say it, just to mark a bit the line between what I personally find acceptable and what isn't. And it does not only apply to Touhou, but to any sort of media. Also sorry for going into another million tangents. I just like talking, and when I start talking about something, you can barely stop me. 

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11 hours ago, SasaMisa said:

Well, I'll leave it there anyway, though to lighten the mood somewhat, I'd just like to say that I'd be able to bribe Eiki with several big-titted images of Komachi, so I'll probably be fine in the afterlife, if there is one of course. (^u^)

Oh, also good luck with this part. I wonder how acceptant would Eiki be of such a gift. Although I might imagine she would get into another lecture in regards to morals and whatnot. As for Komachi, I guess she would have some explanations to offer to her boss for how did she end up getting photos taken of her in such a, possibly compromising, pose for the lady shinigami herself. Now, if this discussion would take place publicly or in private, it remains to be seen (and most likely at the will of any artist wishing to illustrate such a scenario). 😀

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42 minutes ago, -ScarletScythe- ✠ ✠ said:

Because 99% of fans get into it through the porn made of the series, the very sad truth

Interesting thought. However, what is the proof for it? I mean I have personally seen it too in more or less ironic tones being said, but I never really took it seriously. It is basically this situation (cue to An Incorrect Summary of Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance)

Still, interesting point. Alo, despite this coming from Reddit (and a 9 years old thread to add to it), what this person said is not to be ignored:

Spoiler

You know, as much as I'm not against erotic content, I think that's a good idea.

I love the doujin industry. But there's a bit much porn. And of course, I think it's fine enough for Touhou erotic stuff to exist. But there's plenty of it, and I find one of the most fascinating things about Touhou is how many great stories people carve and the other fanworks people create that aren't erotic at all.

There's so much porn in the doujin industry that many people associate the term "doujin" with porn. When there's so much great creative stuff that isn't pornographic at all. It's also kinda alienating how creepy and messed up a lot of the doujinshi is out there. If I like a character, I don't want to see them get raped, rape is super disturbing. And yet a lot of the porn out there is rape themed.

You can be moe without being sexualized. One of the great things I find about Touhou is that it is a great franchise and can sell on things like gameplay and moe without any sexualization in the official games. ZUN doesn't sell his games on fanservice. And his use of moe is probably a personal artistic decision. It's a part of his characters, their personalities, and the great stories he has crafted, and they're better because of it.

Feminism is a big controversial subject in the video game industry today. People like Anita Sarkeesian are a big subject of hate. And some people who aren't feminists and don't like feminism at all, but hate Japanese video games will use that as an excuse to hate moe.

Touhou is probably one of the most gender forward video game franchises in the industry. The games pass the Bechdel test in spades. The characters are diverse and well characterized. They are put as characters before sexualization. And it is their stories and personalities that matter first and foremost. And their creator, ZUN, actively seems to discourage them being turned into mere sex objects.

In this case, moe is actively improving the representation of women.

Again, I don't mind the occasional sexualization. But I'm happy that the Touhou characters are fascinating, without being reduced to a bunch of sex objects. And without being reduced to a bunch of porn characters which only serve to be sexualized. There's porn, but a lot of the fan-material out there is giving them interesting personalities and adventures.

Touhou of course has people who admire its characters in a sexual light. And that's okay. But first and foremost, Touhou is an interesting world with interesting characters from games with good gameplay. And that's what good about Touhou. Is that you can get lost in the universe. That, after a while of being acquainted with the franchise and the fandom, you begin to feel like you know the characters or you live in the world. That's a sign of good lore and good characterization, not sexualization.

(original thread: Help me understand ZUN's philosophy https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou/comments/1rhif8/help_me_to_understand_zuns_philosophy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Back in the days when pirate websites like Moriya Shrine were still seen as justified, ZUN was not even planning to port his games to Steam yet as he was not caring about anything outside Japan, and the first fan-made anime were getting into a bit of trouble with the use of professional voice acting

 

Meanwhile, there is also this opinion, much more recent, coming from Danbooru (as I was talking about that website in a recent discussion), in the context of a Touhou image that sparked much controversy:

Spoiler

User 1: Just proves how low Danbooru has fallen to allow this kind of thing to be uploaded and making people pay for certain images. This fall from grace is just pitiful to watch

User 2: (User in reply):  This image is public, nobody needs to pay to see it. The real joke here is people being so butthurt that this is one of the lowest scored images on site now, despite having perfectly average artstyle. You can't tell me that this is any worse than any of the thousands of coomerbait copypasted art with laughable anatomy that we get each month. [gonna cut this part out, as it is a slight political tangent about Trump, Taiwan and so]

 

Then, there is this discussion based on a story card from Touhou LostWord which for some reason caught up on Twitter, then was discussed again on Reddit (sometimes, I really need to use any source if it is for research and studying human behaviour): 

Spoiler

This is the story card called "Patron Sain of Learning"

20191111_126_4or5___FIX.png

 

And this is how some people reacted when it was shown up and given as a Christmas gift during the ongoing event:

tuvkw9ywck881.png

 

Alright, now with the actual opinions expressed about the card itself, art and reception:

 

User 1: I don't know if it's the reason in this particular case but I've seen a lot of people on Twitter who genuinely hate over-sexualisation of Touhou characters, which is really weird to me considering that a massive proportion of fanworks do over-sexualise the characters and that's a pretty big part of why the series is as big as it is (which is ironic considering the art ZUN draws). This game literally wouldn't exist if hordes of degenerates didn't draw mountains of Touhou porn over the last 20 years, increasing attention to the series, and I applaud their service.


User 2 (reply): It’s not that hard to understand why a large portion of fans would hate over-sexualization when you consider that almost all the cannon material is void of sexualization. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that promotional Yuugi art by Alphes.

User 3 (reply to User 1): This is quite an overstatement, imo. How many of those people who stumbled across porn as their exclusive first experience of touhou actually ended up supporting the game monetarily? How many people exist that actually had the porn as their first experience in the first place? How many people go spend money on non-porn content due to seeing porn online in general? Considering how many people have seen Bad Apple/U.N. Owen was her and other Touhou related music/video content (especially being featured in a lot of Nico Nico Douga videos), I sincerely find it hard to believe that a majority of consumers came from porn and not the variety of other content on many other websites nor do I believe the porn is high on the list of defining features that contribute towards purchase decisions that result in money that goes towards the game's development (I doubt ZUN sees any of the money from doujin/porn producers and people aren't buying the game for ZUN's attractive art). All of that is to say that the game series has far more qualities to it that far outweigh the porn aspect as far as its success. Saying the touhou series wouldn't exist without porn is like saying that every game and anime wouldn't exist without porn. It's absurdity.

User 4 (reply to User 3): I am personally a degenerate so I whole-heartedly welcome the lewding, but I could see how somebody could dislike the over-sexualization. While l00ds have definitely helped the community grow, I wouldn't go so far as to say that they are a crucial part of the fandom. The mainline games as well as the SFW creative freedom that ZUN promotes is what has shaped the community by and large, and I think those alone could have definitely kept the fandom alive and well, if smaller. Somebody who loves the mainline games and/or characters might not like the franchise getting 'degraded' into just sexy anime women.

User 5 (reply): This, for the most part. It seems to happen with basically every gacha game because the majority of the playerbase is, to put it bluntly, desperately horny. It stands out more here because unlike, say, Fate (which has characters like Nero) and Fire Emblem (ditto Tharja), Touhou has never been a "sexy" series. Hell, it's never even lived in the same town. I have a sex drive as functional as anyone else's and I enjoy a nice rack, but I also realize that I can find more porn on the internet, for free, than I could ever consume in my lifetime, so it doesn't need to be part of my gaming as well. Nobody likes a coomer who can't enjoy anything they can't get off to, and I have a lot of respect for ZUN keeping lewd content decisively out of his games. Seeing it here just feels crass.

 

 

At least for now, I am not here to express my opinion on the matter. The materials presented are offered for starting a discussion, and anyone can take whatever they want out of it (after all, we have the right to expressing our opinion). Just let the info sink in...

 

Edited by CountVonNumenor
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  • 2 weeks later...

Heh, ScarletScythe's not wrong there, you know, as I did freely admit when I initially joined this forum that my first real exposure to Touhou Project was indeed a Reisen dojinshi called Bousou-Get! (^w^)

Anyway, you make some very interesting points, CVN, which I'll address in the newer thread now. For this one here, I'll just say that, at the end of the day, I don't believe this is something you are ever going to reason out, not until you experience it yourself. I mean, I had a counsellor in the past who tried to apply his fancy college-course logic to me and my whacky interests and we went in utter circles for almost 9 months in total... and it was only supposed to be for 6. I ultimately cancelled the sessons because we simply weren't getting anywhere. (-_-)

It's the old iceberg phenomenon basically, as in only seeing 1/8 of what Japanese culture is really all about. Helen McCarthy went over this when asked about H material and she said what I always do: it's a cultural thing and you are not going to understand it. The Japanese themselves struggle with comprehending how people can be hikikomori, or marry characters like Nene and Miku, or walk around in public with an anime dakimakura instead of a real girlfriend. Nijicon really is inexplicable to the average person, making me recall what Angelica once said in Rugrats, "If you have to ask, you'll never know." I don't think there's much else I can say on the subject really. (^_^)

--------------------

Now come on guys, I was kidding about Eiki as well - "Danzai!" and all that. For sure, we all understand these characters were horrific abominations originally in common fokelore, with her being akin to the Three Fates of Greek mythology. I mean, have you seen what a monstrosity a rokurokubi really is and would you say Sekibanki is in any way representative of that? Only the Japanese could turn something so unpalatable and frightening into, as Stevo the Human rightly pointed out, a game where lolis shoot each other in the face with lasers. (=^_^=)

Edited by SasaMisa
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On 6/13/2022 at 9:34 PM, SasaMisa said:

Heh, ScarletScythe's not wrong there

Huh, so that is more than just a joke? In a way I feel impressed, but at the same time a little bit disappointed. But nothing to really bother me so much. Everyone has their own reasons for enjoying this series. 

 

On 6/13/2022 at 9:34 PM, SasaMisa said:

Now come on guys, I was kidding about Eiki as well - "Danzai!" and all that. For sure, we all understand these characters were horrific abominations originally in common fokelore, with her being akin to the Three Fates of Greek mythology. I mean, have you seen what a monstrosity a rokurokubi really is and would you say Sekibanki is in any way representative of that? Only the Japanese could turn something so unpalatable and frightening into, as Stevo the Human rightly pointed out, a game where lolis shoot each other in the face with lasers. (=^_^=)

Yes, I am familiar with at least a part of the cast and the original beasts of mythology that inspired them. And, if you took a look into the Nature of Gensokyo thread, I was having quite a bit of fun together with @Gou the frog in regards to mythical and cultural origins of some of the characters, while thinking of possible theories on how we ended with cute girls instead of the scary beasts of old from a lore point of view as well as what would happen if other pantheons somehow made their way to Gensokyo. 

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Well, to be fair, CVN, like I said last night, I think most people undoubtedly get into Touhou through the music and the fangames - I certainly did with Wandering Souls, which was an extremely impressive combination of the two for sure. Granted, some people will come in because of the artwork, and yes, even material of an adult nature, but I highly doubt it's as high as 99%, probably not even a fraction of that. (^_^)

I mean, 'Bousou-Get!' may have been the very first real Touhou inspired work I ever came in contact with, yet truth be told, beyond knowing it features Reisen & Eirin, I couldn't tell you much else about it since I've never actually read it. No, it was over 5 years after that before Estheone's game turned my head enough to get me into the series, so it just goes to show you how little influence H material really had on me back then. (^u^)

Hmm, and that thread you cite regarding the Nature of Gensokyo looks like pretty heavy going too, but I'll check it out when I have a moment. (^_~)

Edited by SasaMisa
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Aye, now first all of this kind of thing is inevitable for every series and Touhou just appears to be just the perfect one. I myself haven't witness the "incident' of the people joining it from questionable material alone but not most of them I say since they are many work to be exposed to. Most of what I've seen known it from the fanworks, and maybe 50? 60% from said material. That's my point of view anyways. I believe it's somewhat in balance so, back to your topic,

Horny Fans... Yeah, seems about right with a cast this big you'd be foolish to think there aren't any said fans. So far, after reading how japan handle things in earlier posts, I got some points from it:

  • Japan doesn't really care how much horny material there it and it's a hit to have those.
  • It's vastly different from the west and have a different view opposed to it.
  • Their very origin are quite... Erotic indeed so, the more the merrier just like those wired period when everyone joins in the boat and does.... stuff.
  • To top it off *Religion*

  So, that slides? 

Well, to brought a point of my own I bring you the perspective of me, a Burmese. (I don't know how this will relate) We've never really cared about those thing but later it was all shot down to ground and the freedom of speech vanished into thin air. Odd, but seems like it's in the middle. Aye, I'll save a history lesson for a thread. 

Aye, but I do have a question why does the more 'exposed' clothed character ie. Kanako is not too lewd but the reverse happen for the tightly ones, it appears to have the same effect. (It might already mentioned in earlier thread like months ago) 

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On 6/20/2022 at 8:23 PM, Gou the frog said:

Aye, I'll save a history lesson for a thread. 

Honestly, now I really am curious for that history less. I get to learn a bit more about Burma from someone living there 

 

On 6/20/2022 at 8:23 PM, Gou the frog said:

Aye, but I do have a question why does the more 'exposed' clothed character ie. Kanako is not too lewd but the reverse happen for the tightly ones, it appears to have the same effect. (It might already mentioned in earlier thread like months ago) 

This reminds me of a similar discussion I have seen a long time ago. It is apparently something about people being interested to reveal more out of a character that s already wearing a lot of clothes instead of going for one that barely wears any. It is as as if we had some sort of desire - the more clothes there are, the greater the desire to see the person (or character) without them on. Which is some interesting line of though. My guess is that it causes curiosity in the mind of a human, looking to reveal whatever secret is hidden beneath all those clothes. It's basically like unwrapping a present if we are to thing of it as such.

 

And speaking of desires, here comes a new round of questions:

Why do people like so much seeing porn/erotic material done based on their favorite franchises? Like where is the charm coming from? Is it some sort of desire we have, or we merely treat is as just another object for satisfying our short-terms needs and wants? Could that desire for sex not be satisfied through other means? Like if you want some porn, why does it need to be about your favorite character(s)?

 

I am also asking because this sort of thing (the existence and commonality of spicy materials related to my favorite series and characters) is basically a new experience for me. My personal stance on such materials can be very much split into two stages: the BEFORE and AFTER finding out what Danbooru is. Until finding out that website, I could not really conceive the idea of going after or seeing so much explicit material related to the thing you like. One of my friends pretty much decided to get me into a "drunk watch of Star Wars R34 art", minus the "drunk" part - all I can say is that evening was a little difficult to digest.

Skipping a few months after that event, directly to when I found Touhou (so in like December 2020). Just as I drew my first Touhou fanart (seen in the Anime thread), and was asking by this friend why did I draw something with so small boobs. I told him a bit about what Touhou is, showed him a bit of official art, then he asked me what was the name of the character (I showed him an official art sprite of Yuyuko from PCB). Less than a minute later, what is the first thing he decided to show me? A R34 image of Yuyuko - my first taste of such content when it comes to Touhou. I was quite a bit shocked to see it, even if he intended it just as a joke and to get a laugh out of my innocence I still had at the time. 

Skip about a year later, and my first discovery of Danbooru. Initially, I was not even supposed to be on that website. I was using Safebooru for adding images to my collection, and remarked that by searching "Iku Nagae" I could not find anything. Thinking there was something wrong, I decided to go for other boards. Without paying too much attention, I ended up on her Danbooru page (and also realized I had to search it as "Nagae Iku"). What was the first thing that got into my face? Pretty much any kind of R18 I could imagine - from nude pose to intercourse (both straight and yuri - Tenshi included). For a while, I pretty much decided to NOPE, and stayed on Safebooru. But eventually, I ended up replacing Safebooru with Danbooru. For the past 6 months, I have only using the latter on a daily basis, so in the end I feel like I got quite desensitized to such kind of content. Therefore, my question when it came to all this research was out of curiosity, not any kind of outrage for the existence of such content. I pretty much went from "I cannot imagine this kind of content existing/I don't really want to be in contact with it or purposefully go after it" to "alright, this exists, I guess [example fitting my mentioned requirements] looks rather neat".

Probably the creation of this thread was also the effect of simply going to Twitter one day based on a Danbooru link to check out the original artist, and saw that the artist retweeted dozens of other NSFW artists who were drawing Touhou stuff (I will be honest, some of it was rather neat, in other instances I was surprised as basically I did not know there was also an NSFW version of an image I was used to), and that made me start this question of why there is so much popularity for such depictions. 

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Heh, slowly turning to the dark side, are we, CVN? Well, it happens to all of us sooner or later, once you get past that period of ambivalence. (^o^)

As to your question though, I can obviously only answer from my own perspective. Being a bona fide 二次コン/nijicon (someone who prefers 2D girls to 3D ones basically), I can tell you for me, it's absolutely different when it's a character you really like and care about. I believe we went into the reason why real porn often ends up being an empty and disappointing experience, simply because you have no connection whatsoever to the person on screen. Sure, you get the release, but you don't get any emotional satisfaction out of it, much like with casual flings in fact. Indeed, there is a world of difference between 'having sex' and 'making love', not that you can get so many people to admit such. (T_T)

I suspected I was this way when I first clapped eyes on Flora from Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors around my late teens, although I obviously had no idea of the Japanese concept at the time. Truth be told, I've always found real girls unremarkable, but unlike my kid brother, who recently came out and admitted that he is asexual, I do have an extremely strong preference toward the female form, just often not the girl who is attached to it. I didn't truly accept it until I tried dating an actual Japanese girl in my late 20s, quickly realising I preferred the company of fictional ones. Tried again with an English girl in my early 30s mainly just to prove a point, and I've been alone ever since, not to mention infinitely happier overall. (=^_^=)

I won't bore you with the long psychological history of why I ended up the way I did, but suffice it to say, an amoral cousin (called "Karen", funnily enough, before the word was even a thing); many bad female role models in my family; horrible girls at school, college, work, etc. undoubtedly played a large part. For sure, I am almost willing to bet that other nijicons would have a very similar tale to tell. It's also undoubtedly why I prefer much more chaste feminine characters, at least on the surface, since it's patently obvious my emotional development in regards to the opposite sex is stunted as hell. (^_^;)

 

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On 6/22/2022 at 4:33 PM, SasaMisa said:

Heh, slowly turning to the dark side, are we, CVN? Well, it happens to all of us sooner or later, once you get past that period of ambivalence. (^o^)

Hmmm, I wonder how that happened... But yeah, I will be honest. I am not more safe or pure about this sort of stuff, but I am trying to keep it as limited as possible. But I guess it is bound to happen after a time, no mater how much yo try to hide it or deny it to yourself? Even if it is more coming out of a weird curiosity. Like that way too curious angel character from Helltaker that ended up in hell trying to maker research, but stayed there a little longer than needed. 

 

Also I am sorry to hear about your overall story. I think it really hurts at times when feeling alone, especially if you just wanted to hand around with someone. As I already stated, I am 20 and still alone. And I feel like it such more and more, as I start feeling increasingly alone. But I already wrote about that in another thread, as I was afraid being both a Touhou and Warhammer 40K fan makes for very much an "anti-get laid formula" at least if going by stereotypes and what kind of people are usually associated with these kind of series. I personally do not feel thirsty enough to actively seek Touhou R-rated material, otherwise you would have seen me already on places like nhentai or R34. But I am determined not to give up yet, as there has to be someone I will find one day to be the match for me. The only thing I am scared of is that most of the traits I would like to find on a girl I have found on my best friend, who is a guy. And I am very much sure I am straight...

But yeah, back on the actual topic of this thread.  

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...I really should involve myself on this forum more.

About that take about lolicon artists being "closeted pedophiles" and the counter-argument that, if that was the case, similar trends would be seen everywhere else... I'd like to remind you about one thing... In Japan people make and publish lolicon art basically openly, while in most other countries, those publication would be either definitely considered CSAM (that's short for "Child Sexual Abuse Material), or would possibly be considered as such, depending on the mood of people involved. So, yeah, there is a big cultural difference there.

It just bothered me.

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2 hours ago, adzi said:

...I really should involve myself on this forum more.

About that take about lolicon artists being "closeted pedophiles" and the counter-argument that, if that was the case, similar trends would be seen everywhere else... I'd like to remind you about one thing... In Japan people make and publish lolicon art basically openly, while in most other countries, those publication would be either definitely considered CSAM (that's short for "Child Sexual Abuse Material), or would possibly be considered as such, depending on the mood of people involved. So, yeah, there is a big cultural difference there.

It just bothered me.

Going on the basis that laws are created based on the cultural and moral framework of a certain group, and (as I've hopefully demonstrated with my original point) that there's no reason to believe that Japan has more pedophiles than anywhere else nor that they consider acts against children to be any less immoral somehow (to imply the latter could even be construed as somewhat offensive), taking your post at face value would then mean you agree with me that it's just a cultural difference relating to what is a viable means of artistic expression? But the post seems to be written in a disagreeing tone, so I don't believe that's the case.

On the other hand, if you are denying my original point in it's entirety (even though you don't seem to be doing that either, and in any case I hope you aren't because saying that pedophilia is somehow intrinsically tied to the culture of an entire nation is a bad faith argument), it would mean that Japanese people, despite being conscientious about real child sexual abuse, still distinguish loli content as a separate moral category. Does this mean you are of the position that loli content is primarily by and for pedophiles who also fantasize about real children, but that being a pedophile isn't an issue as long as you don't actually harm any of those real children? If so, that is an opinion I can reasonably wrap my head around, but not one I entirely agree with. On the other hand if your position is that they are wrong to do so and that there is no difference in the morality of reading an issue of Comics-LO and viewing explicit material involving real-life underage individuals, then I'd have to say that such a view lacks nuance and consideration.

Edited by ACE_DEUCE
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Alright, let's not heat up. I have a bad feeling this might end up poorly, and I really do not intend the discussion turn into a back-and-forth argument (we already have Reddit and YouTube comment section for that). Anyway, we should find a more constructive way of discuss this. Especially since my main curiosity is to learn about a kind of mentality and its effect on people. it is not like we live in a context in which people are becoming more and more thirsty and horny for stuff, at least from like 2020 onwards. First we had Lady Dimitrescu (funny how a Romanian character became a waifu), then Samsung Sam and Akha (Zone). Now, the newest frenzy is about the clown character from Ace Attorney. This whole thing is not just about Touhou, it happens with absolutely everything. However, I decided to focus it on Touhou because 1) this is a Touhou-centric community and 2) Touhou still holds the podium as series in terms of how passionate people are to create not-so-family-friendly content of the horny kind. 

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This is not meant as a critique of anyone’s lifestyle or moral standard; it is merely the presentation of perspective.

Spoiler

When Moses and the newly freed Israelites left the Egyptian territories and entered into the land of Midian, they were led to the mountain Sinai to receive instruction concerning their obedience to God as a nation representative of Him. The core of all that was given them there was contained in the Ten Commandments, concise foundational principles of living that would serve as the fundamentals of their ethical structure. Among these Commandments (specifically the seventh) was the declaration, “You shall not commit adultery” (Exodus 20:14)

As with the other Commandments, this was not a new concept to the Hebrew people, but was in fact a reminder of a declaration made much earlier in history: “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh” (Genesis 2:24). The Hebrew culture was one of heavy symbolism, and it was understood that this relationship was considered a holy institution (Matthew 19:4-6).

The clarification of this ordinance was further compounded later by Jesus in the midst of a speech concerning moral living; the focus of the speech was of evil being a matter of the heart, not merely action. “You have heard that it was said ‘You shall not commit adultery;’ but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:27-28). Again, this wasn’t a new concept, but one which had been redefined for sake of convenience, and was now being reinforced. As adultery and lust are defined as evil, anything inciting to lust is to be avoided (Matthew 5:29-30).

 

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5 hours ago, Ken Hisuag said:

This is not meant as a critique of anyone’s lifestyle or moral standard; it is merely the presentation of perspective.

It is always interesting to bring multiple perspectives into an issue. They help creating a bigger picture of what is going on, as the truth is always somewhere at the middle. Especially in this context, where we basically have a clash of different civilizations and moral codes that do not fit each other, and those caught in between are confused about what should they do or how are they supposed to feel. 

 

1 hour ago, Tenkko said:

 

Meanwhile, this is a classic. I remember seeing it quite some time ago, but it's always good for a laugh. 

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On 6/29/2022 at 6:39 PM, CountVonNumenor said:

Especially since my main curiosity is to learn about a kind of mentality and its effect on people. it is not like we live in a context in which people are becoming more and more thirsty and horny for stuff, at least from like 2020 onwards.

This specifically, in my opinion, could just be a consequence of kids raised with completely unrestricted internet access (in the time of web 2.0) hitting puberty. I'm certainly no expert, but the laissez fare attitude of millennial parents might be catching up to them through their kids' social (and in this case sexual) proclivities that have sprung up as a result of complete engrossment in digital media from a young age; the effects of which on a developing brain psychologists are still working to understand completely.

On 6/29/2022 at 6:39 PM, CountVonNumenor said:

Alright, let's not heat up. I have a bad feeling this might end up poorly, and I really do not intend the discussion turn into a back-and-forth argument (we already have Reddit and YouTube comment section for that). Anyway, we should find a more constructive way of discuss this.

I believe it's possible to disagree on something civilly. I apologize if any comment I've made had come off as passive-aggressive, as I have no intention to be hostile whatsoever.

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28 minutes ago, ACE_DEUCE said:

This specifically, in my opinion, could just be a consequence of kids raised with completely unrestricted internet access (in the time of web 2.0) hitting puberty. I'm certainly no expert, but the laissez fare attitude of millennial parents might be catching up to them through their kids' social (and in this case sexual) proclivities that have sprung up as a result of complete engrossment in digital media from a young age; the effects of which on a developing brain psychologists are still working to understand completely.

First of all, thank you for the answer. It is indeed interesting to see what the effects of Web 2.0 are and will be in the long run. I am just not aware - when was that? All I know for sure is that I stated to actually use the internet back in 2014-2015. But the liberalization of the web sure can be seen as a starting point in our discussion. I remember back in the early 2010s, when I was still in the first years of school, that my father was searching up an image of Felix the Cat (I cannot remember exactly what it was for, but as his work involves creating and editing documents, it could have been for creating some kid's birthday invitations). And during that search, one of the first results you could find on the image board, among actual images of the character was what I thought to be completely unrelated photos of nude women (might have been some porn or whatever the magazines had to throw at the time). My little 10 year old brain felt outraged to see something completely unrelated to the topic we were looking for, and I cannot remember what the answer I got from my father was. This still remains an episode I remember of as it illustrates the way I was thinking at that age (and probably what internet used to be back then). But I think my sheltering as a child (and which stil; continues to some measure) ended up screwing me quite a bit in regards to a normal evolution.

 

38 minutes ago, ACE_DEUCE said:

I believe it's possible to disagree on something civilly. I apologize if any comment I've made had come off as passive-aggressive, as I have no intention to be hostile whatsoever.

No problem. Also glad to see we can keep things calm, as that is always my favorite way of keeping the dialogue with someone. 

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