"Art fixing"

[CountVonNumenor]

Oh boy, I am about to tackle a real can of worms this time (even if I may have said this before, who knows). I will probably have to give a bit of context before going into the thing, just for a clear idea what sort of environment I am coming from, and therefore the influences in the thought process. Alright, so with these being told, I think it might be time to start the thread. Just one request: this is gonna be a rather sensible topic for some, so please, I really do want everything to stay as civilized as possible. 



Preamble

As already established through multiple threads until now, I am from Romania. Our country is rather... interesting when it comes to social values, and what people seem as a priority or not. As a society, we are quite a mix between old and new. While elements of modern culture and society are slowly crawling here through the advent of the internet, they are continuously crashing with traditions and old ways of thought.

In terms of society evolution, I would say we are still in the process of catching up with the West. We are right on the edge of the Balkans, and just neighboring Eastern Europe - two areas of strong traditionalism and conservatism. Besides, 45 years spent under communist dictatorship (with second half strongly dominated by a form of communism that was strongly emphasizing traditions and old traditional moral values - at least on surface), combined with a turbulent first decade of capitalism and a still ongoing healing process even after 30 years has made for a bit of a paradox. While we are trying to pose as a modern society, pretending to be on the same pace with "the Western model". At the same time though, we did not adopt all of their social ideas and movements, judging them as silly. 

Therefore, in Romania, there's little chance you will meet someone on the street caring about social justice, trying to make everything "politically correct" or anything that seems to be the latest trend on this matter particularly in Western Europe and the United States. People here were looking with raised eyebrows just a couple years ago when things went crazy in the US just because of an alleged act of injustice, and actually made fun of the puny attempt at local level here for a "BLM" protest at the time people were marching on the streets all around the West. If you put such question to the average Romanian, they will either have no idea what you are talking about, or will just tell you to go away with such stupid questions, as there are more important and pressing issues in our daily lives (right now, with increasing prices on everything, we might be slowly going towards "Current objective: Survive").

In short, nobody really cares about such issues. And for that, when I first stumbled upon a discussion about this so-called "art fixing", I was like "why do people even bother about it?". Even now, the subject is not clear enough for me, and so I am looking for a bit more detail on what is going on. Additionally, I would like to find out if such a problem has also been noticed in the Touhou fandom, or this entire process is just a fool's errand. 



On with the subject...

I will try to keep this just on "art fixing", so I guess I will have to cut some corners. I will use points I have made a few weeks ago in another thread, and to which @Tenkko (sorry for the ping) has brought some good counterpoints. 

So... it's been quite a while now since Twitter has imposed the rule that no guests on their website can see posts of any page without an account. Therefore, I had to make a pact with the devil and created a Twitter page. Since I am not posting there, I can say I might have just dodged a bullet (or multiple) from a death squad sent on my way. Among the artists I wanted to continue  watching was one Brazilian girl called Linmie, who draws some quite nice Touhou art. Her style is very interesting, with characters whose proportions look much more human than most anime art, with fluffy hair and some other simple, yet cute details.






Why am I bringing her into the discussion? The reason is simple. It seems like one of her artistic liberties has taken a bit of a more...controversial turn, when she decided to depict her version of Reimu as tanned/with a dark skin complexion. Personally, I have been perfectly fine with it, especially since the overall drawing(s) are very good, and you can blame a bit of the darkness on possible filters and saturation. However, not everybody took it so well, which caused a war going one way or another. And it all started with a simple tweet. Now, in order to save some time, I will quote from my original post in regards to the matter:
 

People have reacted in interesting ways to what happened, but as a general trend, everything seemed to be moving in the direction of defending the artist. However, I would not really call the defense as having, well, the most kind of words (this is Twitter, after all):

 

• Quote

   

  • "weebs when they see a character drawn 0.005% darker than a sheet of A4 paper [could not load the GIF - but it is Homer Simpson having a heart attack scene related]"

   

  • "I just saw the original post, I'm... I'm dumbfounded at how this guy got so angry over it. Like this is the kinda guy who would defend white washing with "it's just a really bright light source" yet is getting angry when Reimu's skin tone is a shade darker than cream cheese"

   

  • "Toehoe fan when different skin color [MariSad image]"

   

  • "I don't know why people have to complain when a character is drawn in a different skin tone. Like if people want to draw characters in a different skin tone they can"

   

  • "Seems like racists never heard of artistic interpretations when it comes to skin colors but only excuse it when it comes to whitewashing. Everything else is free game for them though (I posted this under the wrong tweet, sorry about that)."

   

  
  Again, why I am bringing Linmie into the frame? Well, since this opens up what I would talk about. According to Tenkko, Linmie originally had a Tumblr page for uploading her art, but she had to drop it due to getting hate for possibly similar situation. All I can understand from the comments above is that people can quickly go from an extreme to another, especially in terms of their beliefs. 
  
  
  This would be a very good moment for the following message: please do not harass Linmie, or show her any hate towards her. Artists do not deserve getting hate from such little things I might have put her in a bad light in this thread, and if it looks like I did so, I am very sorry. I really appreciate her works
  
  
  With my little Eastern European brain, there is one thing I have noticed. In theory, art has no limits. However, I would like to ask the following question: where does one cross the line from improving something to "improving/correcting" something? Unfortunately, I cannot remember her name right now, but there has been at least one infamous case of a so-called artist who was taking various bits of art from people, and was redrawing them as she thought they would be "correct" - usually done on Japanese characters (though western ones do not get safe), by changing the skin complexion towards something darker (first execution squad is already on the way because I mentioned the funny skin color problem in 2022) and adding more body weight (I have triggered the second execution squad - mentioned the "fat pride" movement). In this end, this "artist" has apparently been called out for such practices, and at least on that front, activity ceased. However, I do not think such a trend has ended. I mean I do not have a problem with someone taking some liberties on the character, as long as they stay true on the spirit of said character. I also do not have a problem when someone tries to "fix" them in the way of "drawing [character] in a more realistic manner" - sure, not always will that translate properly (just like in cosplay, some details seem to be lost in translation). However, there is one point where I think it might be a little too much. (And I am not going into the whole problem of blackwashing vs whitewashing, since that is a completely different discussion I am not ready for)
  
  Personally, I really cannot add anything more to this, especially since,  again, I am coming from a part of the world where, had it not been for internet access and social media, I would not have even known such issues eve exist. 
  
  
  
  Conclusion
  
  In order to repeat one of the points made at the beginning. In a way, I am a bit puzzled of how the West works nowadays in terms of moralities. And I am saying this from the perspective of an Eastern European. For us, when we look at the West and see them argue over stuff like political correctness and social justice, we are looking at them like on aliens, especially since here nobody is too bothered by such problems. But to be fair, we have higher problems here right now, including the classic "Current objective: Survive", so nobody is interested in discussing representation when you barely have enough money to get by on a daily basis and everything is becoming more and more expensive.
  
  This is a weird thing I see about art going on in the other side of the world, and do not understand how did we even get there. Personally, even with how little I know about what is going on, I still think "fixing" art just for the sake of fitting a personal agenda is something stupid. Sure, it is one thing to take liberties and create your own thing, but there is one point in which things are going just a little too far. I feel this thread has deviated too much from the original intent, and this is usually happening when I do not feel in complete control of what I say, at least in terms of knowing the full details of a situation, and thus very possibly spreading misinformation. 
  
  Therefore, I am looking to get a bette understand of what is going on. Plus, since Touhou is such a big series when it comes to fan art, has anything like this happened to the fandom and its fan creations? I would like to think we are still safe from it, but maybe I am wrong. Maybe there is more than I could think of, and right now I am only tipping the top of an iceberg not worth getting into. I just want to understand a little better what can o worms of the Western world did I discover.
  
  
  If this thread has been too much, I am ready to remove it. 
  
  
  Also post-thread note: stay as far away from looking into Touhou art on DeviantArt. At least from my (unlucky) experience of once checking the tag I used for drawings, I ended up wishing to bleach my eyes. Better not explain what I saw there, even with the "keep everything safe" settings on. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by CountVonNumenor

[CountVonNumenor]

Next time, I will return with a more positive thread. Topic: music and people's favorite songs from Shinra-Bansho. 

[Mogekujo]

I'm fairly new to the Touhou community, but I think it's fairly right to say that Touhou is safe from "art fixing" even if there are a lot of people making fan arts of it. I believe the art fixing issue just happens to series which appeal to a wider public. If I'm wrong in anything, feel free to correct me.

[Tayaya]

I love Touhou fanart and even edits of them. I enjoy seeing when people add their own takes to a character even when the skin colors different ( even Zun tanned Cirno in HSiFS) and seeing everyone's perspective on them.

But Ig when you have a series as big and ongoing as Touhou some people don't like when an artist changes from their view of a character.

[CountVonNumenor]

11 minutes ago, Tayaya said:

I enjoy seeing when people add their own takes to a character even when the skin colors different ( even Zun tanned Cirno in HSiFS) and seeing everyone's perspective on them.

You know what I find rather funny? That a drawing of a different skin color posted on Danba couple months ago has sparked tons of controversy in there, and has become the most heavily disliked upload on that website (yes, Danbooru has a likes/dislikes system and yes, even worse than the previous "champion", an image contains the Hololive idols and...let's just say everything that was going on in Sodoma depicted) 

Tanned Cirno has actually been an interesting idea. I like the concept, even if in itself it was a bit of an odd move to have an ice fairy (so normally a part of winter) be associated with summer (the very opposite of her nature). It gives the chance for some interesting dynamics to develop. 

 

17 minutes ago, Tayaya said:

But Ig when you have a series as big and ongoing as Touhou some people don't like when an artist changes from their view of a character.

As for this part, it's not so much about not liking an artistic choice. I mean, everyone has their own cup of tea. The only thing I'm trying to understand is why westerners put so much emphasis nowadays on this "representation" thing. Just redrawing a character from white to black, or from skinny to fat is not a good way of doing it, at least in my opinion. It's just taking something already existent, and forcing it to work in a more or less artificially set pattern by warping it and it's essence (more or less). But I think by now I'm just rambling nonsense, and should probably go get some sleep. It's 3:30 AM

[Tayaya]

24 minutes ago, CountVonNumenor said:

The only thing I'm trying to understand is why westerners put so much emphasis nowadays on this "representation" thing. Just redrawing a character from white to black, or from skinny to fat is not a good way of doing it, at least in my opinion. It's just taking something already existent, and forcing it to work in a more or less artificially set pattern by warping it and it's essence (more or less).

I think it's probably more of at trend at this point that people want to try to bring attention to less represented people. This is a problem since Japan is less diverse than here in America (and less fat lol) and ig some people don't understand it and try too hard to "fix" the inequality.

These sort of things are complicated and that's just my interpretation of it.  Anyways gn and have sweet doremies lol

[Darksymphony777]

1 hour ago, CountVonNumenor said:

The only thing I'm trying to understand is why westerners put so much emphasis nowadays on this "representation" thing. Just redrawing a character from white to black, or from skinny to fat

As someone who lives in the west the best idea is that I think people have become too obsessed with politics and the advent of social media where people could be anonymous giving them carte blanche to say what they want and get away with it.

 

For the most part people don't hate the idea of "fixing art" they hate how artist go about fixing art. Say I take a look at one of your doodles and redraw it, but it doesn't look good. And then I proceed to insult you because YOUR art is bad and I fixed it. People would rightly defend the original artist and badmouth the "fixer" for how they acted while the artists will usually mass block and then shut down their Twitter account for a bit.

 

I see the idea of art of flexible and comes off depending on ones perception and interpretation, as someone who not just reads fanfiction but reviews it on YouTube being able to understand how stories can paint a picture of any situation can be a big help but also being able to grasp that sometimes something is not for you can take one a long way in understanding

[Gou the frog]

2 hours ago, Darksymphony777 said:

For the most part people don't hate the idea of "fixing art" they hate how artist go about fixing art. Say I take a look at one of your doodles and redraw it, but it doesn't look good. And then I proceed to insult you because YOUR art is bad and I fixed it. People would rightly defend the original artist and badmouth the "fixer" for how they acted while the artists will usually mass block and then shut down their Twitter account for a bit.

That is the final nail to put the coffin of triggering people on Twitter. 

Well, like you said art fixing itself is not going to burn prople that much, but if you go an extra mile to tell people that "I fixed yo Asian looking skin to black" And another thing "You're ugly". The loser in both scenarios are the Artists. (cue: Who won, Who's next? You Decide! ERB)

Well, our country Myanmar doesn't really bother with it. Especially now, since we're currently in coup. I'm afraid I don't have any more to bring to the table, my lack of knowledge of this topic has bring my thread to an end.

[Sir I]

On 4/25/2022 at 1:34 AM, CountVonNumenor said:

Also post-thread note: stay as far away from looking into Touhou art on DeviantArt. At least from my (unlucky) experience of once checking the tag I used for drawings, I ended up wishing to bleach my eyes. Better not explain what I saw there, even with the "keep everything safe" settings on. 

I did it once, regretted doing that. 

[SasaMisa]

Only noticed this thread last night, but I'll chime in. You know, Clownfish TV & YellowFlash 2 did several videos about this subject, where morons on Twitter were attacking children, Japanese artists, etc. just because they dared draw a character different from what they perceived to be the current correct version (I know the new She-Ra series was especially guilty of attracting the whack-a-doodles). Then of course you get the 'fixers', who mostly detest the female form and want to see it utterly eradicted, while unironically claiming they support "women's rights", although apparently not their right to look pretty. (T_T)

For my part, I don't approve of censorship of any variety and ad hominem attacks simply mean you've lost the debate before it's even started in my opinion and I won't tolerate it. Artists should be free to draw whatever the hell they want and if people don't like it, they can go and look at something else. I'm kind of grateful that Touhou has been largely immune to this phenomenon and I hope to God it stays that way. (^_^)

Anyway, for what it's worth, CVN, I live in Western Europe, as you know, and I don't get our obsession with identity politics at all. I'd like to believe the UK isn't as bad as the US, but that would be naive indeed. I think it's merely as Darksymphony777 says: anonymity combined with social media just makes for a poisonous combination, which is why I absolutely refuse to sign up to Twitter or Facebook, much less use the bloody things. (-_-)

Edited June 18, 2022 by SasaMisa
Altering format.

[Darksymphony777]

1 hour ago, SasaMisa said:

I think it's merely as Darksymphony777 says: anonymity combined with social media just makes for a poisonous combination

Awww thank you for the shout-out

[CountVonNumenor]

Unfortunately, just as I wanted to check a Tumblr page connected to Linmie, it no longer works. It seems like the pressure and harassment might have been too much for our artist. She has 2 Twitter pages left, but both are blocked/any people approved by her can see the post. Overall, most of her media is now dead, with no source for updates:

Edit: just as I realized I have always written her name wrong. I am sorry for that, I was supposed to write as "Linmiee"

Edited January 5, 2023 by CountVonNumenor

[Nekofire]

I've never seen this topic before, since I have some stuff to say about the subject of art fixing... let's go !!

I think the word "fix" has a very provocative connotation since, when artists are fixing the art of someone, it implies they are going to correct a mistake and here the mistake appears to be... the character's skin color (or corpulence ). It looks like that "fixers" are trying to promote their conception of beauty by blaming the artist for not representing some characters in the way the fixers want.

I'm not criticizing their perception of beauty but here, I'm totally against people who are blaming artist for doing what they want to do 

On 6/18/2022 at 1:07 PM, SasaMisa said:

 Then of course you get the 'fixers', who mostly detest the female form and want to see it utterly eradicted, while unironically claiming they support "women's rights", although apparently not their right to look pretty. (T_T)

Isn't that fixers are supporting the right for women to look pretty in a different way or... I don't get it if you don't mind explaining to me your point 

[Gri]

Here's my simple take on that:

Re-draw of an original art is a re-interpretation, and this means alterations will be made. Artist are free to re-interpret art as they want, but spectators are also free to like or dislike a re-interpretation. It all comes down to how people respect each other freedom (and of course, artists respecting each other).

The only Touhou fan art I saw are from Youtube thumbnail, and I saw some "re-interpretation" I didn't like (making character more sexy or making them psyco-edgy). I choose to respect the artists, move on and not waste time and energy on trying to impose MY taste on others. It's always more productive to focus on thing you enjoy, rather than things you don't.

I know the example in this topic was about "re-interpretation" of a character from one skin-tone to another (not too sure I to describe that accurately in english), but I think any alterations should be considered and treated the same way (political, sexual, edgy, kawaii, close-to-original). There's a public for each taste, even unpopular ones.

[SoundOfRayne]

4 hours ago, Nekofire said:

On 6/18/2022 at 7:07 AM, SasaMisa said:

 Then of course you get the 'fixers', who mostly detest the female form and want to see it utterly eradicted, while unironically claiming they support "women's rights", although apparently not their right to look pretty. (T_T)

Isn't that fixers are supporting the right for women to look pretty in a different way or... I don't get it if you don't mind explaining to me your point 

I think I know what they're getting at. Yes, people want to support the right for women to look beautiful in different, more progressive ways. To illustrate my point, I'm gonna put this in the context of body positivity; y'know, "Big people are beautiful too." That kind of thing.

So, the idea behind body positivity is a very well-meaning gesture: People shouldn't feel like they are excluded from being attractive if they don't conform to a traditional image of beauty; in this case, being thin. Body positivity is all about making the discussion and expression of beauty more inclusive. But, for a small but loud minority of people, that's not what this movement means to them. It's not about progressive and traditional ideas of beauty coexisting and intermixing with each other; it's about progressive ideas replacing traditional ones. "Out with the old. In with the new." Big isn't just beautiful. Big is in, and by extension, thin is out. It's a clear corruption of what the original message was supposed to be, but if you think on it, you can kinda see how someone who approaches this topic with a lot of hostility would come to that conclusion.

That's what SasaMisa's trying to describe. Whatever kind of "female form" they're trying to describe is super vague. It could be anything: body positivity, gender neutrality, natural beauty vs. beauty products, who knows? But the idea is still there: They found someone or some group of people trying to push for some progressive vision by outright rejecting and discrediting whatever kind of "female form" they happen to like. But just like SasaMisa says, if woman have the right to choose a progressive type of beauty, they have to retain the right to choose traditional beauty too. Otherwise, it stops being a choice.

Actually, now that I think about it, I wonder just how many other heated debates get to be where they are because of this "corruption of ideals." Inclusivity should be strove for, but if the way to way to make it happen is to just boot out what once was because "Mom says it's my turn to define beauty," then of course there'll never be a healthy way to resolve it.

[Nekofire]

9 hours ago, SoundOfRayne said:

It's a clear corruption of what the original message was supposed to be, but if you think on it, you can kinda see how someone who approaches this topic with a lot of hostility would come to that conclusion.

Thank you so much for the explanations !!  
You’re completely right, but these people not only want to make thin people looks ugly, they also want fat people to bully the thin one

There is no way discussing/debating on this topic with them they are too much aggressive and their points only consist in « you’re not fat so you don’t know how we feel »  

[CountVonNumenor]

@Nekofire unfortunately, SasaMisa has not been around since last summer. We have no idea where he is (or at least I have no idea), therefore it is hard to say when he may come back and give his own point of view towards the question you addressed. Good thing however that SoundOfRaybe was here to help.