Fanservice in Touhou, at least as much as I have seen yet

[Isaac]

Sorry I should have specified more. Those situations where they are just looking at each other is fine, but there are often times that go further than this. It ties again with fanservice and usually involves focusing on breasts for too long or in worst cases touching people inappropriately.

Leads to the flanderization of more characters that I love.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Isaac

[CountVonNumenor]

You mean it as things going from simply looking at each other to trying to prove Tenshi's theory from Yuuten Paradise (the M-1 Grand Prix skit with her and Yuuka)? It was honestly the last thing I could think as an outcome, but now that you mentioned, I can't unsee it anymore (not that I am fully complaining). 

[Isaac]

1 hour ago, CountVonNumenor said:

You mean it as things going from simply looking at each other to trying to prove Tenshi's theory from Yuuten Paradise (the M-1 Grand Prix skit with her and Yuuka)? It was honestly the last thing I could think as an outcome, but now that you mentioned, I can't unsee it anymore (not that I am fully complaining). 

I wouldn't say it in a yuri romantic way that tenshi mentioned. Although tenshi was very cute in that sense. It's more like touching each other to feel the difference is what goes too far, if you get what I mean. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Isaac

[Isaac]

Focusing again on the stats, I have no idea why the 3 fairies or Kosuzu have higher percentages. I thought they would have less compared to the more 'mature' characters but I guess not. As bad as the R-18 stuff already is, let's hope Eiki is featured as more adult than some depict her.

If only there was a way to conduct this research on twitter artwork as well. That would be interesting to see.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Isaac

[CountVonNumenor]

10 hours ago, Isaac said:

Focusing again on the stats, I have no idea why the 3 fairies or Kosuzu have higher percentages. I thought they would have less compared to the more 'mature' characters but I guess not.

Yeah, I am just as surprised about the fairies and other little characters scoring so high. As for Kosuzu, I always thought people put her around the age of Akyuu, so at leat 20 years old. But yeah, a simple visit on Danbooru on a daily basis seems to prove the fairies part very now and then. On the Akyuu confusion I had earlier, I think it was due to me adding the number from the R34 website to the Pixiv stats. Speaking of which - Tenkko mentioned Pixiv, I brought up the smut website, I guess Twitter and DeviantArt are left? (even if DA had marked as R-18 even 4koma comics from Life of Youmu just because of swearing)
 

10 hours ago, Isaac said:

As bad as the R-18 stuff already is, let's hope Eiki is featured as more adult than some depict her.

Well, if we are to look at the full half of the glass, at least it is a more adult Eiki. But as pointed out before, kindergarten/loli version of Eiki receives just as much material of that kind. 

[CountVonNumenor]

While doing a bit more research for the Lost Word thread, I got over some discussion I have saved in regards to a more or less controversial story card art regarding Eirin in her Christmas outfit. The source will be provided at the end of the reply. 

The image in question (potential spoiler): 

Spoiler

And here is the relevant part of the discussion (I will generically call each of the speakers from 1-5):
 

Speaker 1: I don't know if it's the reason in this particular case but I've seen a lot of people on Twitter who genuinely hate over-sexualisation of Touhou characters, which is really weird to me considering that a massive proportion of fanworks do over-sexualise the characters and that's a pretty big part of why the series is as big as it is (which is ironic considering the art ZUN draws). This game literally wouldn't exist if hordes of degenerates didn't draw mountains of Touhou porn over the last 20 years, increasing attention to the series, and I applaud their service.

Speaker 2 (reply): It’s not that hard to understand why a large portion of fans would hate over-sexualization when you consider that almost all the cannon material is void of sexualization. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that promotional Yuugi art by Alphes.

Speaker 3 (reply to Speaker 1): This is quite an overstatement, imo. How many of those people who stumbled across porn as their exclusive first experience of touhou actually ended up supporting the game monetarily? How many people exist that actually had the porn as their first experience in the first place? How many people go spend money on non-porn content due to seeing porn online in general? Considering how many people have seen Bad Apple/U.N. Owen was her and other Touhou related music/video content (especially being featured in a lot of Nico Nico Douga videos), I sincerely find it hard to believe that a majority of consumers came from porn and not the variety of other content on many other websites nor do I believe the porn is high on the list of defining features that contribute towards purchase decisions that result in money that goes towards the game's development (I doubt ZUN sees any of the money from doujin/porn producers and people aren't buying the game for ZUN's attractive art). All of that is to say that the game series has far more qualities to it that far outweigh the porn aspect as far as its success. Saying the touhou series wouldn't exist without porn is like saying that every game and anime wouldn't exist without porn. It's absurdity.

Speaker 4 (reply to Speaker 3): I am personally a degenerate so I whole-heartedly welcome the lewding, but I could see how somebody could dislike the over-sexualization. While l00ds have definitely helped the community grow, I wouldn't go so far as to say that they are a crucial part of the fandom. The mainline games as well as the SFW creative freedom that ZUN promotes is what has shaped the community by and large, and I think those alone could have definitely kept the fandom alive and well, if smaller. Somebody who loves the mainline games and/or characters might not like the franchise getting 'degraded' into just sexy anime women.

Speaker 5 (reply): This, for the most part. It seems to happen with basically every gacha game because the majority of the playerbase is, to put it bluntly, desperately horny. It stands out more here because unlike, say, Fate (which has characters like Nero) and Fire Emblem (ditto Tharja), Touhou has never been a "sexy" series. Hell, it's never even lived in the same town. I have a sex drive as functional as anyone else's and I enjoy a nice rack, but I also realize that I can find more porn on the internet, for free, than I could ever consume in my lifetime, so it doesn't need to be part of my gaming as well. Nobody likes a coomer who can't enjoy anything they can't get off to, and I have a lot of respect for ZUN keeping lewd content decisively out of his games. Seeing it here just feels crass.

 

Like I said, here is the source of the discussion https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou_lostword/comments/rrln95/ugly/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
 

 

[CountVonNumenor]

On 4/28/2022 at 8:29 PM, Tenkko said:

Important distinction between suggestive or fanservice-y and you know, zorn, that's why I didn't know if the chart was relevant. The former usually doesn't get the R-18 tag.

Speaking of relevance. Now I really do not know hw Pixiv works, but even with the "keep everything safe for work" ON, the systems to be having some hiccups. Like how I was saying that for some reason, a pair of bare boobs become safe and something everyone can watch if you cover the nipples. But I guess this kind of shock on my side is to be expected when coming from a society where everything of that nature is heavily censored, at least during daytime (except for those weird times when even the national television decided to take an interview on the beach to a topless woman and forget to censor it - AT PRIME TIME of the day)

Anyway, now I really am curious how works like this ended up being considered "safe", but I just might be too prude (of course, gacha related stuff). 

https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/62498501
https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/61274765

(and for a bit of Touhou, even if slightly more covered) https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/49539407

I find it funny how Pixiv decided it is a good idea to have tags in the kind of "[Touhou character]'s boobs", just to make the search more clear. "We are dong this for science, I swear!" Anyway, nothing new under the sun

[Tenkko]

1 hour ago, CountVonNumenor said:

Like how I was saying that for some reason, a pair of bare boobs become safe and something everyone can watch if you cover the nipples.

Yeah that's the standard I guess, just cover the bits and it's safe. Boorus have the "questionable" rating but it's still very subjective.

(that Okuu is a tad more tasteful I'd argue)

[Gou the frog]

1 minute ago, Tenkko said:

Yeah that's the standard I guess, just cover the bits and it's safe. Boorus have the "questionable" rating but it's still very subjective.

(that Okuu is a tad more tasteful I'd argue)

That's how most of the media work. No cover for bits? not safe. Cover for bits but not the whole thing? They sleep. 

I wonder if they cover the holy hole it's going to be acceptable?

[Isaac]

I'm going to be honest about those tags on Pixiv. Sometimes when I see artwork that is completely fine, there would be weird tags associated even if they aren't related. I try to remove the bad ones as much as I can, but I don't understand why those tags are on the safe side to begin with.

As you guys said, seems like anyone can get away with anything as long as they aren't showing the specific parts. 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Isaac

[Gou the frog]

6 minutes ago, Isaac said:

I'm going to be honest about those tags on Pixiv. Sometimes when I see artwork that is completely fine, there would be weird tags associated even if they aren't related. I try to remove the bad ones as much as I can, but I don't understand why those tags are on the safe side to begin with.

I too also try to be on the safe side. More often or not you'll come across the weird ones like Von has sated in this earlier thread. I mean there're pros and cons with the site. Overall, be extra cautious that's all I can say to the matter. 

[Isaac]

1 hour ago, Gou the frog said:

I too also try to be on the safe side. More often or not you'll come across the weird ones like Von has sated in this earlier thread. I mean there're pros and cons with the site. Overall, be extra cautious that's all I can say to the matter. 

As someone with Pixiv premium, I actually mute the names of characters I want to see artwork of. This is to be extra cautious and for the most part I've avoided the bad content. Mostly...

I get really scared about something bad showing up, so I always do this. I'd say its even harder to avoid this stuff on twitter, especially if people your following like or retweet that content.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Isaac

[CountVonNumenor]

3 hours ago, Tenkko said:

(that Okuu is a tad more tasteful I'd argue)

Yes, that one really is not too bad. It is still something I would mark with a spoiler or place in a restricted/NSFW channel though simply for the nudity. 
 

3 hours ago, Gou the frog said:

That's how most of the media work. No cover for bits? not safe. Cover for bits but not the whole thing? They sleep. 

I wonder if they cover the holy hole it's going to be acceptable?

If you cover exactly that 0.001% (exaggerating the size proportion right now obviously) of it, it will become perfectly safe. Ever if the underwear is skin-tight, molds in a way that you can see the very shape of everything or it is just wet, it will still somehow be safe ( or tagged as questionable in the worse case scenario). Truly some weird conditions and standards...
 

Also a few more Touhou examples of "somehow this is still rated safe for work"

https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/18068189
https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/67123124

 

52 minutes ago, Isaac said:

I'm going to be honest about those tags on Pixiv. Sometimes when I see artwork that is completely fine, there would be weird tags associated even if they aren't related. I try to remove the bad ones as much as I can, but I don't understand why those tags are on the safe side to begin with.

As you guys said, seems like anyone can get away with anything as long as they aren't showing the specific parts. 

Indeed, this is the interesting, yet also at the same time weird part in all of the  affair. To be honest, if we talk about tags, I'm gonna get back a bit to Danbooru. At what sort of stuff appears daily in the Touhou feed, I feel like at least two more tags should be used. Sorry for my blunt language right now, but the two additional tags would be "fetish" and "CP" (you know, as in in child... "corn"). Just due to the extremely questionable side of some of the works accepted there on a daily basis. I find it ironic though that that image that sparked the most hate on that platform, at least for Touhou content, has not been one of those "spicy" works, but a different skin color version of Eiki (I did mention this in the "Art Fixing" thread, but actually gonna link it now since the whole thing is worth staying aside and eat some popcorn while they are arguing). 

The whole mess, and a comment that gets a very interesting connection to the regular spiciness (spoilers). Keep in mind, this is apparently the most negatively rated image in the history of Danbooru. Oh, what am I not doing in the name of research...
 

Spoiler

https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/5132061?q=shiki_eiki+
 

Quote

Quote

EmaEiishi said:
Just proves how low Danbooru has fallen to allow this kind of thing to be uploaded and making people pay for certain images. This fall from grace is just pitiful to watch.

(User in reply):  This image is public, nobody needs to pay to see it. The real joke here is people being so butthurt that this is one of the lowest scored images on site now, despite having perfectly average artstyle. You can't tell me that this is any worse than any of the thousands of coomerbait copypasted art with laughable anatomy that we get each month. You're no different than Chinese keyboard warriors losing their minds at pictures referencing taiwan or SJWs getting angry at fanart of trump. No, nobody gives a shit that you're offended. Find another site to be a moral warrior on.

 

54 minutes ago, Gou the frog said:

I too also try to be on the safe side. More often or not you'll come across the weird ones like Von has sated in this earlier thread. I mean there're pros and cons with the site. Overall, be extra cautious that's all I can say to the matter. 

I tend to keep Pixiv on safe setting just because I have no reason for doing otherwise. Initially, for searching Touhou images I was only using Safebooru. But after a weird episode (I did not know I had to search the names of the characters in Japanese name order), I ended up on Danbooru, and was initially shocked. It was for the first time I was seeing NSFW images of the series (despite already knowing about its reputation when it comes to H-art and doujins), and also that on one of my favorite girls, Iku (so the shock was both metaphorically, and literally). With time though, I grew more and more accustomed to Danbooru, especially since it had much more art than its safe counterpart. And so I developed a bit of an immunity, I guess. 

Also, am I the only one who has a weird feeling when you have an artist you like, watch their stuff on Pixiv, Twitter or whatever, and form the impression they are drawing just safe for work stuff? And then, after a visit to Danbooru and seeing ALL their work, you just cannot believe how much lewd they are actually drawing, all the safe works being merely a façade and result of a simple tag being active in your settings? It is almost unreal. Or at least just weird.  


Please, do not try to understand me as some sort of crusader trying to combat everything that is not safe. That would be a fool's errand, and just make me look cringe. And also quite a bit of a hypocrite, because I do have the guilt of not hating all of it, me mentioning the conditions in which I find it absolutely fine just a couple pages ago in this thread. 
 

Quote

If I am to be honest too, I think the two of us are on the same wavelength. I am not so much into the idea of "naughty" doujins, but illustrations by themselves are fine. Plus, I am looking for 3 conditions:

1) don't draw them minor-looking or as children to put it more clearly; it's just wrong 

2) I'm trying to stay a bit far from exaggerated features like oversized boobs; some like them humongous, but I personally don't find it my cup of tea - normal size is fine

3) don't have them getting pegged; besides the fact it seems wrong, there's one more creepy thing about it. One thing I have noticed very often is that men in such images are drawn as faceless. The famous "Mister" is also faceless for example. Why? One reason I have heard is that you are supposed to self-insert into the image. FUCKING YIKES. So basically, it is made so that certain fans can fulfil their fantasies, which is again quite messes up in my opinion 

But anyway, I need to keep my train of thought still relevant on Touhou and examples of fanservice...

[CountVonNumenor]

As we were talking long ago about the rating system of image sharing boards, I have managed to find the rules for Danbooru and what counts an image into each of their main rating categories. I was actually quite curious how these work, and so I read a bit the article. Therefore, here is the extract (last two sections will be marked as spoiler for potentially sensitive content):

 

howto:rate (locked)

Ratings are used to categorize content on Danbooru. Danbooru has four ratings: rating:general, rating:sensitive, rating:questionable, and rating:explicit.

Broadly speaking, these categories are:

• rating:general - G-rated content. Completely safe for work. Nothing sexualized or inappropriate to view in front of others.
• rating:sensitive - Ecchi, sexy, suggestive, or mildly erotic. Skimpy or revealing clothes, swimsuits, underwear, images focused on the breasts or ass, and anything else potentially not safe for work.
• rating:questionable - Softcore erotica. Simple nudity or near-nudity, but no explicit sex or exposed genitals.
• rating:explicit - Hardcore erotica. Explicit sex acts, exposed genitals, and bodily fluids.

 

Guidelines

Rating:General

• G-rated, completely safe for work content.
• Fully clothed characters.
• Completely non-sexual scenes.
• Innocent comics and 4komas.
• Portraits and faces.
• Chibi and cute things.
• Content without people (scenery, still lifes, no humans, text-only pages, food focus, animal focus, SFW Pokémon, etc)
• Innocent displays of affection (hugging, holding hands, kissing that isn't sexually charged, etc)
• Trivial or cartoon violence (comedic or non-serious fighting, minor head bumps, cuts, and bruises, or other injuries that don't cause lasting harm).
• Large breasts, cleavage, blushing, midriff/navel, bare legs, bare arms, bare shoulders, and exposed shoulder blades don't instantly disqualify a post from this rating.

Rating:Sensitive

• Ecchi, sexy, risqué, or suggestive content, even mildly so.
• Skimpy or revealing clothes, including swimsuits, lingerie, underwear, cleavage cutouts, playboy bunnysuits, skin tight or impossible clothes, etc.
• Exposed groin area (hip lines) or dimples of venus.
• Anything focused on the ass, breasts, cleavage, underboob, sideboob, feet, armpits, lips, or other sexualized parts of the body.
• Pantyshots, upskirts, and similar fanservice.
• Subtle cameltoes or covered nipples not blatant enough for rating:questionable.
• Implied sexual situations, such as visible condoms or sex toys.
• Mild violence (blood or injury that is not G-rated).
• Depictions of thoughts of suicide or self-harm (including gun to head)
• Anything not G-rated, not completely safe for work, or not completely safe to view in front of others.
• Anything you're not sure is safe enough for rating:general. When in doubt, use rating:sensitive.

 

Spoiler

Rating:Questionable

• Simple non-genital nudity, including nipples, areolae, and bare ass.
• Visible vulva or pubic hair, if subtle and not blatantly exposed, such as in standing full-frontal nudity. "Blatantly exposed" means spread legs, spread pussy, presenting, anything focused on the crotch, and anything where the pussy is fully visible.
• Near-nudity, such as highly revealing clothes, clothing that barely hides nudity, and clothing that is partially removed or torn.
• Nipples or genitals clearly visible though clothing, including covered nipples, cameltoes, wedgies, bulges, and erections under clothes.
• Mild sexual contact (ear biting, groping, breast grabbing, heavy kissing, etc)
• Implied sex acts that aren't clearly shown.
• Sexually suggestive acts (sucking suggestively on hotdogs, etc).
• Suggestive fluids (unless they're obviously cum or pussy juice).
• Bondage, spanking, BDSM, and other fetish activities without visible sex acts or bodily fluids.
• Sex toys not in use.
• Graphic violence (death, major blood or injury).

 

Spoiler

Rating:Explicit

• Exposed genitals, including the pussy, penis, and anus, whether censored or uncensored.
• Explicit sex acts, including sex, fellatio, masturbation, handjobs, fingering, sex toy use, etc, whether censored or uncensored.
• Bodily fluids, including cum, used condoms, and pussy juice.
• Guro, scat, extremely graphic violence (gore, dismemberment, etc), and NSFL content.

 

Note also that if an image is loli or shota, it lowers the requirements for what is considered "sensitive" significantly.

If you are unsure of what rating to use, post a comment or ask in topic #8495.

 

Article source: https://danbooru.donmai.us/wiki_pages/howto:rate

[CountVonNumenor]

Back to some canon stuff. Reading again through Alternative Facts in Eastern Utopia, I found this thing (source - AFiEU page 122-123):

So Memories of Phantasm as right in depicting Yukari and Ran wearing their mobcaps while bathing at the hot springs (opening minutes of Episode 3) . I would have also brought in the Tengu pinups of Aya, Hatate and Momiji, but I think someone already mentioned them.