On the future of Touhou community

[CountVonNumenor]

Now that the week is over, and things seem to have become more clear in terms of what happened, I think the best thing to do would be to think on what will happen next. This sure has come as quite a bit of a blow, but at least if it happened, at least I hope something worth  will come out of it.

Ironically, I have a bit of a negative track record of joining fandoms, and then said fandoms getting serious blows/getting ruined. To make a count:

• Star Wars: joined the fandom somewhere around 2014-2015; what happened afterwards - the old EU purge, the Sequel trilogy; mostly lost interest in SW by 2019 and TRoS, but still have a bit of interest for the war machines of the universe
• Warhammer 40K: found the series and joined fandom in late 2019; what happened afterwards - the summer 2021 IP fiasco implemented by Games Workshop (death of most fan animations on YouTube for not creating competition to Warhammer+ (RIP SODAZ, Astartes and If the Emperor had a Text-to-Speech Device), animators more or less willingly hired into GW's animation department etc); I still enjoy the series, especially since the main drive for me to gain interest into it was, again, through the armies ad war machines used by the Imperium of Man
• Touhou: discovered the series through its fandom in October 2020; what happened - well, I think everyone knows by now how the past 3 months have been, from the overall decrease in quality of fan-made content in the English community to increased gatekeeping to now the past 7 days; I do not plan to leave the fandom any time soon - I love the fan art, the music, and found this very nice and comfy place where to chat with other people that have similar interests
• (possibly, not confirmed yet) BattleTech: I have recently grown quite curios about this Sci-fi universe, especially after seeing some very good introductory videos; I am not sure yet if I will fully embrace BT, but it looks like a fun to explore setting

 

Anyway, back on the topic of Touhou. I hope the fandom will not be affected very harshly by what has happened. Now let's be honest, a good chunk (some estimate it at around 90%) of the fans did not even touched the games. There are just way too many good things about Touhou you can enjoy, and each of them can serve as an entry point: the fanart (safe for work or not), the fan animations, the fan-made manga and other stories, the fan-made games, ZUN's own music (now available of Spotify) and the list can go on forever. I just wish this whole thing will not have too much of a negative effect on us. Sure, I was feeling quite sad and disappointed at the beginning of the week, but now, I am feeling a bit more on peace with the events. 

At least I hope there will be something good coming out of this. I hope some ideas to have spread recently are true. Nowadays, especially since April Fools' Day has been exactly at the worst moment possible, I cannot fully believe anything, but there has been some interesting news running around. Let's see what it says, at least as the people have put it. Maybe it is a (be)late(d) April 1st joke, maybe it is bait, but I will present it anyway (post seems to have been done on the 2nd of April though, at least according to my time zone):

 

Quote

 

Good News r/touhou (This is a Meta post for clear news)

 

Touhou 6-9 are actually releasing on Steam so get your cash upon Western Touhou because you want achievements for beating the Phantasm Stage in PCB (Really Hard 2nd Extra Stage). Yukari will like that the pirating websites got fucked by ZUN and his legal team, and to you poor people out there. Get a fucking job or use your mom's credit card (please don't because it's stupid, and this comment is a joke). Btw, let's wait for audiobooks of the Touhou manga to get released on ZUN's website for people to buy. Western Touhou will clearly like this because shipping prices fucking suck ass, and you don't have to pirate (i.e get fucked by ZUN's legal team) to not worry about importing prices. AmiAmi is now a scam because Japanese shipping prices go over the price for Touhou games for the west. ZUN actually gets the full price for his work so it's a great thing for him.

 

And to you crying about that. Get fantasy sealed bozo. Pirating is a fucking crime.

 

 

I do not know exactly what the "Meta" tag refers to, but the ideas presented seem rather interesting. Besides the regular "Fuck you, Moriya Shrine" (common sight on both Reddit and Discord), there's the following:

• Touhou 6-9 getting releases for Steam (perhaps the games might get remasters?)
• possible audiobook adaptations for the official manga

Besides, I was also confused by another joke that was running around on the 1st of April was an image that seemed to be a Remastered version for one of the PC-98 games (Story of Eastern Wonderland, I think). If it is just a joke, very well. If not, it might actually be interesting, and perhaps explain why the DMCA on the PC-98 games too. 

 

 

But overall, what do you think will happen next? What are you predictions, be them short or long terms, in regards to the reactions of the fans? I am actually quite curious on that. Maybe a new era awaits us. What will come out of this new era, remains to be seen...

[Tenkko]

Well. There has been a lot of overreacting with peeps saying "touhou is dead/dying" and such which is, absolutely not true. I remember the whole Kancolle scare some time ago and look how that turned out. But Touhou is still bringing people in and it's easier than ever to find out about it, so I don't really think things are grim.

Most have already moved on from this incident, and pretty much everyone I've seen would be very content if everything Touhou related was made more legally accessible (both official and fanmade). And I do think that could come to be eventually, but it's gonna take some time. Specially for fan stuff since right now doujin circles still don't seem very interested in a western audience. I mean even ZUN seems overall kinda reluctant.

Also despite what I said before, while it seems to have had a significant growth over the years Touhou continues to be more or less a niche thing this side of the world and, it's probably gonna remain that way unless something huge happens.

[slapper]

Honestly, I have heard talk about Touhou  6 through 9 getting on Steam, but it mostly said that 7 and 8 would be the easiest because for 9 Zun would rework the multiplayer and he just straight up lost the source code for 6. I do hope they finally get released on Steam but if what I said is true (especially with 6, it might take a while). I do really hope ZUN remakes these titles even though he said he’d rather make something new. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by slapper

[TheM3ds]

Let's face the fact: A lot of Fandoms are shit, there will always be drama on popular sites like Twitter or Reddit, everyone gets angry over the most pitiable stuff imaginable, people overreact over everything and there will toxicity in some way, shape or form but you know what this happens all the time on the internet (which should be a given at this point), but you got to remember: with every event that happens in a community it usually fades away with time, I've learned not to get involved in every incident that happens because it's mentally draining, but with the whole "Touhou fandom is dead/dying" thing I can't help but fell like it was overblown, I'd argue the Touhou community has became even stronger then it was before, which is incredible considering the sheer scope of Touhou, I couldn't but laugh when everyone was freaking out.

Oh the irony.

Edited April 4, 2022 by TheM3ds

[CountVonNumenor]

13 hours ago, Tenkko said:

Well. There has been a lot of overreacting with peeps saying "touhou is dead/dying" and such which is, absolutely not true. I remember the whole Kancolle scare some time ago and look how that turned out. But Touhou is still bringing people in and it's easier than ever to find out about it, so I don't really think things are grim.

Most have already moved on from this incident, and pretty much everyone I've seen would be very content if everything Touhou related was made more legally accessible (both official and fanmade). And I do think that could come to be eventually, but it's gonna take some time. Specially for fan stuff since right now doujin circles still don't seem very interested in a western audience. I mean even ZUN seems overall kinda reluctant.

Also despite what I said before, while it seems to have had a significant growth over the years Touhou continues to be more or less a niche thing this side of the world and, it's probably gonna remain that way unless something huge happens.

 

I do not really know what happened with Kancolle (Kantai Collection, right? I am not into gacha in general). But from what I know, that game still stands. I hope my opening post did not sound negative in regards to my view on the future of Touhou. There are indeed new people coming in (which I will cover soon), which is always a good thing. There are few, sometimes more or less voices who are against it, but I prefer Touhou getting new people in as long as they are curious and wan to learn more about the series (or at least just not pollute it with drama and stupid stuff and toxicity).

I am also ready to move on from the incident, and in a way I am quite happy about the potential for more of the older Touhou material to become accessible through legal means. I actually do have a bit of a curiosity about the doujin circles, and why most of their content is either stuck in Japan, or only available in Japanese. Is it due to the condition of having a small market, not expecting their products to become popular in the West too, or just do not care/dislike the western fan? Because I have seen Japanese and East Asian fans of Touhou having a bit of hate for us, those from the rest of the world.

Even if it will remain a niche product, I still think Touhou will retain its charm. There is just something very special I feel about it compared to other series I have ever been interested in. It is interesting how Touhou is at the same time both a very famous series online, remarkably spread in internet culture, and at the same time is almost unknown to most of the people. Maybe a bit of a weird analogy, but it feels like the Alpha Legion from 40K. Very known (at least among the fans), but nobody actually knows what they are up to.

 

12 hours ago, TheM3ds said:

Let's face the fact: A lot of Fandoms are shit, there will always be drama on popular sites like Twitter or Reddit, everyone gets angry over the most pitiable stuff imaginable, people overreact over everything and there will toxicity in some way, shape or form but you know what this happens all the time on the internet (which should be a given at this point), but you got to remember: with every event that happens in a community it usually fades away with time, I've learned not to get involved in every incident that happens because it's mentally draining, but with the whole "Touhou fandom is dead/dying" thing I can't help but fell like it was overblown, I'd argue the Touhou community has became even stronger then it was before, which is incredible considering the sheer scope of Touhou, I couldn't but laugh when everyone was freaking out.

Oh the irony.

 

Guess this is just how the internet works [shrugs]. What I find interesting until now is that Touhou has not made such a strong mark on social media, at least as far as I know. Like no serious Twitter, Reddit, Tumblr or whatever else big drama over petty reasons, and people rather chill. Not really as chill as I knew this community is talked to be (before joining the fandom, all I knew about the Touhou community is that it is one of the most chill fandoms online, without drama), but still better than most places I have been in before. To be honest, I really feel like getting dragged or involved too easily in anything going on, and find it a bit hard to just brush off this sort of stuff. But I guess it just happens. 

If my thread sounded a bit like "Touhou is dying/dead", I am sorry. I have probably used my words wrongly. I am very much sure it will survive until like the end of the world in Japan (it is amazing this series is stil popular and going after over 20 years). I am no sure about the rest of the world, but we will surely find a way to enjoy it, no matter what. As I said at the beginning:

 

16 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:

There are just way too many good things about Touhou you can enjoy, and each of them can serve as an entry point: the fanart (safe for work or not), the fan animations, the fan-made manga and other stories, the fan-made games, ZUN's own music (now available of Spotify) and the list can go on forever.

 

So yeah, what do you think will be coming next, what are your hopes and what would you like to see?

[Tenkko]

Yeah Kantai Collection I should've given some context. A bunch of names were leaving Touhou for that game and some thought that trend was going to continue, nowadays it's not as popular.

If anything FGO kinda did that more recently but still it's not like both series can't coexist.

 

[TheM3ds]

2 hours ago, CountVonNumenor said:

 

I do not really know what happened with Kancolle (Kantai Collection, right? I am not into gacha in general). But from what I know, that game still stands. I hope my opening post did not sound negative in regards to my view on the future of Touhou. There are indeed new people coming in (which I will cover soon), which is always a good thing. There are few, sometimes more or less voices who are against it, but I prefer Touhou getting new people in as long as they are curious and wan to learn more about the series (or at least just not pollute it with drama and stupid stuff and toxicity).

I am also ready to move on from the incident, and in a way I am quite happy about the potential for more of the older Touhou material to become accessible through legal means. I actually do have a bit of a curiosity about the doujin circles, and why most of their content is either stuck in Japan, or only available in Japanese. Is it due to the condition of having a small market, not expecting their products to become popular in the West too, or just do not care/dislike the western fan? Because I have seen Japanese and East Asian fans of Touhou having a bit of hate for us, those from the rest of the world.

Even if it will remain a niche product, I still think Touhou will retain its charm. There is just something very special I feel about it compared to other series I have ever been interested in. It is interesting how Touhou is at the same time both a very famous series online, remarkably spread in internet culture, and at the same time is almost unknown to most of the people. Maybe a bit of a weird analogy, but it feels like the Alpha Legion from 40K. Very known (at least among the fans), but nobody actually knows what they are up to.

 

 

Guess this is just how the internet works [shrugs]. What I find interesting until now is that Touhou has not made such a strong mark on social media, at least as far as I know. Like no serious Twitter, Reddit, Tumblr or whatever else big drama over petty reasons, and people rather chill. Not really as chill as I knew this community is talked to be (before joining the fandom, all I knew about the Touhou community is that it is one of the most chill fandoms online, without drama), but still better than most places I have been in before. To be honest, I really feel like getting dragged or involved too easily in anything going on, and find it a bit hard to just brush off this sort of stuff. But I guess it just happens. 

If my thread sounded a bit like "Touhou is dying/dead", I am sorry. I have probably used my words wrongly. I am very much sure it will survive until like the end of the world in Japan (it is amazing this series is stil popular and going after over 20 years). I am no sure about the rest of the world, but we will surely find a way to enjoy it, no matter what. As I said at the beginning:

 

 

So yeah, what do you think will be coming next, what are your hopes and what would you like to see?

Oh no, when I read other peoples posts talking about the whole "Touhou is dying/dead" I couldn't help but bring it up so you're good.

I can understand feeling like you're being easily dragged into any situation but the difference here is that it's just as easy not to get involved just by ignoring it or watching it from the distance, honestly I just expect things to revert back to the way it was. 

Unless there will a huge shift or change in the community?

 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by TheM3ds

[CountVonNumenor]

On 4/4/2022 at 7:49 PM, TheM3ds said:

Unless there will a huge shift or change in the community?

 

 

That is honestly the big thing I'm very curious about. For one year after I found Touhou, things seemed to have been chill. Or at least I was barely using Reddit and other social media had a Touhou footprint all over it, so I was developing my fandom experience the very own way. I was not expecting though some of the evolutions of the last 6 months though. 

I was not expecting the drama caused by the Fumo sales, I was also not expecting the backlash cause by Fusu art on Reddit (which also made for an interesting art counter-movement at the time). I was not expecting to see Youmu winning the Popularity Poll for a second time, and be accused of voting fraud. I was also not expecting shitpost kind of content surge back into popularity since the beginning of the year, or Japanese Goblin becoming the next "Rock-Roll". 

 

Now I really am curious where this fandom will get, especially with the recent events and traces of the old ones still being fresh and alive. 

[LorWkey]

Leaving behind my feelings about this topic: After seeing recent events during 2022 and what has been going in 2021, I think Touhou will inevitably become somewhat mainstream. Things like Touhou Lost Word (and the company GoodSmile getting into it), Touhou getting into Steam, The popularity growth from various reasons as you might've pointed; and the affordable items like Fumos and figurines have helped out to modify Touhou on West, at least in minimum terms.

Specially, the access to touhou from Steam might have marked the beginning of the whitewash of Touhou. We don't know the next actions that ZUN could take, but I point that he has been trying to give Touhou a more proper and professional-looking. The big change on all this would be that ZUN start to feel pressured and guided by some interested enterprise that could see a new business on the franchise, because of the popularity is gaining on the Internet (though it would depend on which countries this popularity increase is focused on). Or even that ZUN starts to work in more popular and common game genres for the series would aid to gather more attention.

Soo.. What do I expect from now on? If everything keeps going like this, I can see Touhou gaining a bigger visibility. The key lays whether a western company reaaally makes an effort and cooperate with ZUN to commercialize Touhou. Another point I would consider is the organization of fans: imagine occidental Reitaisai spreading across here and there; which sounds kinda kinda likely, since the ambitious project of TouhouFest will be held next year. 
The future may seem foggy but I'm sure that the new era is coming through and it will lead to a small-medium but solid franchise of games, doujins and purchasable products. How much will it take for that? We don't know...

[Macbeth]

I see what you mean Lordgy, but I feel it will be more of a sharp rise to the mainstream but then slowly decline back into somewhat obscurity to where only people like us talk about touhou. You know, I feel as when Touhou does get its more "tripple A" treatment, people will lose the interest of Touhou as this kind of stuff makes it more difficult to have fan content I feel.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Macbeth

[sodaodaoda]

1 hour ago, LordgyMer said:

Leaving behind my feelings about this topic: After seeing recent events during 2022 and what has been going in 2021, I think Touhou will inevitably become somewhat mainstream. Things like Touhou Lost Word (and the company GoodSmile getting into it), Touhou getting into Steam, The popularity growth from various reasons as you might've pointed; and the affordable items like Fumos and figurines have helped out to modify Touhou on West, at least in minimum terms.

A part of me doesn't want this to happen, but I just know that it will at one point. It does really feel like Touhou became more commercial.

[Tenkko]

eh, i don't think it will. i mean Touhou's been mainstream in Japan for a while now (or so i hear), but ZUN still seems kinda reluctant towards having a presence on the west. think we will continue to get better access to stuff but never the full treatment.

[LorWkey]

3 hours ago, Macbeth said:

I see what you mean Lordgy, but I feel it will be more of a sharp rise to the mainstream but then slowly decline back into somewhat obscurity to where only people like us talk about touhou. You know, I feel as when Touhou does get its more "tripple A" treatment, people will lose the interest of Touhou as this kind of stuff makes it more difficult to have fan content I feel.

Hmm, I get your point; it's true that I've seen that prediction from other people regarding to this topic: at the end, the beauty of Touhou resides on the big fan content it can have. The fact that it's getting more mainstream is kinda risky-we've just seen the first reaction of ZUN toward this website- and I'm scared of what this could turn into as Touhou continues building the "professional-looking" or the "triple A" treatment you mentioned. Each popularity scale Touhou had, ended as you said: declining until that obscurity of the true-dedicated fans that has tried to keep it alive by the time being.

[LorWkey]

3 hours ago, sodaodaoda said:

A part of me doesn't want this to happen, but I just know that it will at one point. It does really feel like Touhou became more commercial.

Yeah, that's why I said "leaving behind my feelings" in my post... A part of me really enjoys the calmness of Touhou fandom. The recent disturbances and boom-expansion that Touhou has suffered in such a little time from many trends make me sense doubtful. The more popularity booms in short ammounts of time it will get, the more chaotic consequences will have (I think). At the end, I share the same feeling as you; but we should be assuming as it is.

[LorWkey]

1 hour ago, Tenkko said:

eh, i don't think it will. i mean Touhou's been mainstream in Japan for a while now (or so i hear), but ZUN still seems kinda reluctant towards having a presence on the west. think we will continue to get better access to stuff but never the full treatment.

Hmm... well, I always refer to the evolution in the West. Touhou in the Eastern is another story for me. ZUN might have taken decissions only focusing on Japan and Eastern, but his actions have also had consequences for Western community; such as the games on Steam. 
What I said about getting mainstream, it's like the best among possibilities; yet the path that the series is going nowadays might still end as you pointed: getting better access to games, products, mangas... Whatever the results will be, what's clear is that touhou will be more visible and known, thanks to the easier ways to know about it. And this latter is what could give the possible option of turning into a solid franchise in the West.

[CountVonNumenor]

Alright, so how cam we merge a multitude of smaller threads into one single, big discussion? It seems like things have started to come together today, and  I feel very glad we are slowly starting to get a unified view. 

[Gou the frog]

Touhou won't be going down any time soon. Over time, it will gradually become mainstream. Well, ZUN's got a lot of ideas at his disposal, and that's always a good thing. There will always be the good and the bad in every fandom. The western side has its own fair share of quality. On the bright side, we'll be getting games steadily on steam, steadily and possibly new work from ZUN himself.

Now, that reminds me of a similar fandom, most notably the Team Fortress 2 fandom.

Pardon me for including another fandom, but it has been 14 years since Tf2 came out. The community was abandoned by Valve and was overrun by bots. There were no updates, no new weapons, nothing. Did the community fall? Not only didn't it fall, but the fandom kept the game alive for years. Even then, it's still going strong.

Getting back to the point, for the future of Touhou, it depends on the fans. That's my take. 

At the end of the day, there's one thing certain. That is, even if the worst of the worst happens, our dedicated fandom will always stay put.

 

[CountVonNumenor]

On 4/4/2022 at 6:33 PM, Tenkko said:

Yeah Kantai Collection I should've given some context. A bunch of names were leaving Touhou for that game and some thought that trend was going to continue, nowadays it's not as popular.

If anything FGO kinda did that more recently but still it's not like both series can't coexist.

 

Almost a month later, you have randomly reminded me of something. After watching a number of artist pages on both Pixiv and Danbooru, I have noticed the following trend: artists discovered Touhou or started their portfolio with it, then move to other anime/Japanese titles, most of the time these being gacha or JRPG games. I am not very sure about the reason for such a decision (maybe gacha appeal? increased number of fans, and therefore exposure? the fact they can draw more "lewd/saucy" fanart since that is basically the canon design of that character? all of the above?). 

Also, as you have mentioned other gacha games, I don't know if I can confirm the following (never checked the artists), but apparently, Fate Grand Order and Azur Lane are games that literally hired hentai artists to make the official art for their product (apparently one Raita and Re-Drop in the case of FGO). If it's true, I think it explains why officia art in these games looks so...you know.

[Tenkko]

Burnout from Touhou, shiny new thing, mostly among those lines I'd guess.

FGO is just like that with the designs afaik. I have seen very little of Azur Lane and I intend to keep it that way.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Tenkko

[CountVonNumenor]

36 minutes ago, Tenkko said:

I have seen very little of Azur Lane and I intend to keep it that way.

Through a Discord server I am part of, I got to see a bit more than I wanted about Azur Lane. As a whole, i can sum things up as "official and fanart lewd galore, but still safe for work somehow". I don't know if they also have an official animation or anything, but I saw a short clip of I think Prinz Eugen baking a cake with mostly just an apron on her and some copious amounts of side-boob shots (and forget the spilt chocolate for maximum fanservice). But yeah, I think there is nothing lost if you stay far from it (unless you like girls whose outfits also have warship components from historical vessels on them). Or am I confusing things with Kantai Collection? I never really knew how to make the difference between

[CountVonNumenor]

Well, I cannot believe its been 2 weeks already, but only now did I realize Lessons in Meme Culture covered Japanese Goblin in a video. A bit of potentially more exposuree for Touhou in the Western world? 

 

 

[Tayaya]

On 4/20/2022 at 9:11 AM, CountVonNumenor said:

But yeah, I think there is nothing lost if you stay far from it (unless you like girls whose outfits also have warship components from historical vessels on them). Or am I confusing things with Kantai Collection? I never really knew how to make the difference between

Azur lane and KanColle are the same game (sorta) with anime warship girls. And yes I enjoy aircraft carrier waifus 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Tayaya

[CountVonNumenor]

I... really do not know how to answer to this part. But whatever floats the boat, I guess (ah, I made a ship pun, damn it). 

[SasaMisa]

My personal take on this would be to do what I do... try to avoid the petty drama and just enjoy Touhou Project for what it is and very possibly will be far into the future; in your own way and at your own pace, and to hell with all the rest. (=^_^=)

Edited May 8, 2022 by SasaMisa
Adding some text.

[Isaac]

Here's some thoughts I wanted to share. I actually love the attention touhou is receiving now, though some things more than others. Even if people are discovering the series through LostWord, memes or fumos, it's nice to see more people try the main games and listen to the music. I'm even seeing more cosplays of the characters as well. There's been a few controversies and bad stuff appearing, but I'll continue to avoid all this like always. 

I can't help but think about the future a lot. Like, how different will the community be in 10 years? Will touhou increase or decline in popularity by then? No matter what, I want to keep loving this series probably for the rest of my life. I hope everyone else continues to love it too :)